My group recently hit a total of 8 players. Thankfully, my players are mature and solid people all around, so I have been able to keep things moving at a healthy pace, but balancing encounters for them has been hellish. I'm looking for advice on how to go about doing this. So far, here's what I've been doing.
1) Sometimes Max out monster HP: This is primarily for lower CR encounters where the players can swarm really well.
2) Increase the numbers of enemies over using more powerful creatures. A CR 9 can still one shot a player in a crit even if there are double the number of players.
3) For boss fights in which there is a single monster, double the action economy. Basically roll their initiative, and then give them yet another turn after 4 of the players have gone. This has been a huge help, and something I had to start doing when my players kept a boss on his heels for 4 rounds straight, the boss only able to use defensive abilities to try to survive until the next round.
Do you guys have any other suggestions on how to balance this out? Treasure, combat, experience, etc? Looking for advice on all fronts.
I'd say double the number of monsters (treat it like two parties of four adventurers) and use multiple monsters more of the time than you would otherwise.
Your idea of doubling the monsters actions is very creative and a simple, elegant solution. I quite like it.
Be careful of monsters with low initiative. Weathering 8 PCs attacking while they're flat-footed is going to ruin the day of any monster that goes last in the turn.
Occasionally you could split the party during boss battles and give them two separate bosses to fight. Example: The dragon is attacking the village but the evil wizard is watching from a nearby hill and using the fear its causing to summon a powerful creature from the nightmare dimensions. Both fights are time critical and too far apart to be a single encounter. (Be aware for balancing that in each case the players will probably choose the best PCs for dealing with each threat, so the party will be slightly more powerful than a normal group of 4 PCs but not by much).
You probably want to ban the leadership feat at this point. Too many NPCs joining in on the player's side could be bad news.
Edit: Largest game I ever ran was eleven players. I Co-gmed it with my friend and so most of the time we split the party into two encounters and I would run one and he would run the other. It was still tough work, so I feel your pain.
Occasionally you could split the party during boss battles and give them two separate bosses to fight. Example: The dragon is attacking the village but the evil wizard is watching from a nearby hill and using the fear its causing to summon a powerful creature from the nightmare dimensions. Both fights are time critical and too far apart to be a single encounter. (Be aware for balancing that in each case the players will probably choose the best PCs for dealing with each threat, so the party will be slightly more powerful than a normal group of 4 PCs but not by much).
Really good idea! I hadn't thought of boss fights in that dynamic. Certainly something I'll be using.
You probably want to ban the leadership feat at this point. Too many NPCs joining in on the player's side could be bad news.
Ironically, this is the first game where I haven't banned the leadership feat in years, but that's because of the nature of the game. It's a mesoamerican themed game (Jungles, blood sacrifices, wooden paddles with shark teeth instead of swords, etc) where they are in charge of handling the natives, diplomatically or militarily at their discretion. The game takes place over about 15 years game time, during which the colony grows and they can use the downtime rules from ultimate campaign to set up businesses, factions, etc. The leadership feat basically gives them a cohort who can manage their businesses when they are away, and gives them the chance to start a proper faction at reduced cost.
I tend to use this for building encounters these days. The players never run into an encounter with a single monster in it unless it is a boss monster, and even then I have found throwing a single CR+3 monster at a party of 4 people is easier than 4 CR (APL-1) monsters. These are set for each individual player, so things are just additive per player. You can also mix and match the below so long as it is within the same parameter (If there are 4 players you can have 1 (APL-1), 2 (APL-3), 3 (APL-4), and 4 (APL-5) monsters to form one encounter, but NOTE: the lower the CR of the monster the more it needs to focus on using its CMB for everything, so pick monsters with high CMBs [The undead Owl-bears, CR2, have around +12 to grapple] or monsters who focus on using magic for everything so long as it is effective [Magic Missle always hits unless the target has the Shield Spell, CL 1 Magic Missle averages 3.5 due to the +1, in multiplicity this becomes 4[14], 8[28], 12[42], and 16[56] average damage in 1 round, so never underestimate the power of 16 level 1 wizards/sorcs. It doesn't matter if they die in 1 hit, NPCs should be damage focused not suitability focused anyway.
The real power of the 4x[(APL-8) to (APL-5)] elements are when they are used as traps--possibly compound traps that activate EVERYTHING. Pit traps that are set to not fall for the first 3 on the way down a dungeon and then all of them activate when the last trap activates tends to hit the entire party if they are in line formation. Anyone who fell in is now stuck fighting up against the enemies who were watching the party and now are attacking them from outside the pit.
Be aware that you should always mix things up, send neither continual commando squads 4x(APL-1), nor hordes 16x(APL-8), nor mix and matches, but mix it up by using all of them so the party cannot adapt to just that one thing. Also, do use compound traps such as rope bridges that dump the party into bear traps, rooms that have one or two pillars of 1,000 arrows, but are also filled with hidden beartraps that are pinned to the ground.
"titles" explained:
Use these the majority of the time.
Standard (Paizo): This is your average encounter that the PCs should blow through without problems.
Difficult (Paizo): This is only a little harder for the PCs, but not by much.
Hard (Paizo): The chance of PC death is average here.
Epic (Paizo): The battles can be awesome here, but PC death is high. Total Party Kill is possible here.
Uses these sparingly, mostly for special events. Have build up to them, and try to allow rests before the battle or the chances of TPK increases dramatically.
Equals (Unofficial): The PCs are evenly matched to their opponents. PC deaths are highly possible, Total Party Kill is also highly possible.
BOSS (Unofficial): The PCs are less powerful than the challenge, and must overcome it with tactics. PC deaths are almost assured even if they don't make mistakes, and a Total Party Kill is more likely than (Equal). Just this once, and for the point where the story ends. This should be big, it should be over-the-top, it should be something that defines the characters. After this many characters should retire if they survive, and the entire story should end at this point regardless.
4 monsters per player (4 players = 16 monsters)
CR (APL-8), CR (APL-7), CR (APL-6), CR (APL-5), CR (APL-4), or CR (APL-3) monsters (Standard), (Difficult), (Hard), (Epic), (Equals), (BOSS)
3 monsters per player (4 players = 12 monsters)
CR (APL-7), CR (APL-6), CR (APL-5), CR (APL-4), CR (APL-3), or CR (APL-2) monsters (Standard), (Difficult), (Hard), (Epic), (Equals), (BOSS)
2 monsters per player (4 players = 8 monsters)
CR (APL-6), CR (APL-5), CR (APL-4), CR (APL-3), CR (APL-2), or CR (APL-1) monsters (Standard), (Difficult), (Hard), (Epic), (Equals), (BOSS)
1 monster per player (4 players = 4 monsters)
CR (APL-4), CR (APL-3), CR (APL-2), CR (APL-1), CR (APL-0), or CR (APL+1) monsters (Standard), (Difficult), (Hard), (Epic), (Equals), (BOSS)
I use this now, up to you to follow if you so choose.
KEY:
A = Current Level
ß = Multiplier of everything sold at half value
C = Multiplier of everything sold at full value
D = Starting gold
E = Acquired Gold Half Value
F = acquired gold full value
G = To go from current level to next level
H = total xp gained to hit next level
I = total gold gained if all encounters are CR [current level] encounters
J = XP for current level encounter
K = gold awarded by current level encounter
A) [ß]/[C](D____/E___/F)_____G:_(H______/I)______J___/K
01) _______________________________________________Level 01:(8,000_______/5,200)_______400___/260
02) [0.7]/[1.3](1,000____/650_________/1,300)______Level 02:(12,000______/11,000)______600___/550
03) [0.7]/[1.4](3,000____/2,025_______/4,050)______Level 03:(24,000______/24,000)______800___/800
04) [0.8]/[1.7](6,000____/5,025_______/10,050)_____Level 04:(36,000______/34,500)______1200__/1150
05) [0.9]/[1.8](10,500___/9,337_______/18,675)_____Level 05:(56,000______/54,250)______1600__/1550
06) [1.0]/[2.0](16,000___/16,118______/32,237)_____Level 06:(84,000______/70,000)______2400__/2000
07) [1.1]/[2.1](23,500___/24,868______/49,737)_____Level 07:(120,000_____/97,500)______3200__/2600
08) [1.1]/[2.2](33,000___/37,056______/74,112)_____Level 08:(180,000_____/125,625)_____4800__/3350
09) [1.1]/[2.3](46,000___/52,759______/105,518)____Level 09:(240,000_____/159,375)_____6400__/4250
10) [1.2]/[2.3](62,000___/72,681______/145,362)____Level 10:(380,000_____/215,729)_____9600__/5450
11) [1.2]/[2.4](82,000___/99,647______/199,294)____Level 11:(500,000_____/273,437)_____12800_/7000
12) [1.2]/[2.5](108,000__/133,827_____/267,654)____Level 12:(760,000_____/356,250)_____19200_/9000
13) [1.3]/[2.5](140,000__/178,358_____/356,716)____Level 13:(1,020,000___/462,187)_____25600_/11600
14) [1.3]/[2.6](185,000__/236,131_____/472,263)____Level 14:(1,520,000___/593,750)_____38400_/15000
15) [1.3]/[2.6](240,000__/310,350_____/620,700)____Level 15:(2,040,000___/776,953)_____51200_/19500
16) [1.3]/[2.6](315,000__/407,469_____/814,939)____Level 16:(3,160,000___/1,028,645)___76800_/25000
17) [1.3]/[2.6](410,000__/536,050_____/1,072,100)__Level 17:(4,040,000___/1,262,500)___102400/32000
18) [1.3]/[2.6](530,000__/693,862_____/1,387,725)__Level 18:(6,160,000___/1,644,270)___153600/41000
19) [1.3]/[2.6](685,000__/899,396_____/1,798,792)__Level 19:(8,240,000___/2,132,421)___204800/53000
20) [1.3]/[2.7](880,000__/1,165,949___/2,331,898)__Level 20:
Best of luck.
Rewards for encounters should be based on the CR that you are aiming at. 8 PCs = (APL) + 6. So the CR of each encounter that is based around APL = 1 should give rewards similar to level 7.
Assuming they are level 1 this means that when they defeat an encounter they should get XP and Treasure equal to the encounter.
So, if a level 1 party of 8 characters gets into a fight the standard fight they should be taking on should be CR 7 (1 + 6.)
This will award, from the chart above, 3200 xp and 2600 gp. Divide this by the number of players (8) and it becomes (400 xp and 325 gp). Since all treasure found on adventuring should be in items that must be sold this brings the overall treasure to 162 gp, 5 sp per character, per encounter. This only slightly over gears the party, but it honestly does not matter since they are likely to be needing to spend money on Raise Dead and Restoration.
Remember, ONLY use (BOSS) difficulty once, and at the very end. Equals is great for battles at the end of major sections or dungeons, but otherwise stick to Standard - Epic.
With a party of this size your are unfortunately capped at level 13 if you want to stay on the treasure chart so try to end the campaign before then.
Hopefully all this makes some semblance of sense to you.
Ironically, this is the first game where I haven't banned the leadership feat in years, but that's because of the nature of the game. It's a mesoamerican themed game (Jungles, blood sacrifices, wooden paddles with shark teeth instead of swords, etc) where they are in charge of handling the natives, diplomatically or militarily at their discretion. The game takes place over about 15 years game time, during which the colony grows and they can use the downtime rules from ultimate campaign to set up businesses, factions, etc. The leadership feat basically gives them a cohort who can manage their businesses when they are away, and gives them the chance to start a proper faction at reduced cost.
This sounds like a really cool idea for a game. No wonder you have eight players wanting to join in. :D
Thankfully, my players are mature and solid people all around, so I have been able to keep things moving at a healthy pace...
How... Fortuitous?
Chuckle
See what I did there? I, uh... huh.
Yeah.
Thankfully, my players are mature and solid people all around, so I have been able to keep things moving at a healthy pace...How... Fortuitous?
Chuckle
See what I did there? I, uh... huh.
Yeah.
This guy. This guy gets it.
A lot of tables and text
This is actually what I've been using. I've had to start tuning encounters higher for my players. Unfortunately though, the tables suggested for CR don't seem to work in this game. Difficult Encounters are road bumps, Hard encounters force them to think a bit, and it's only when you get to Boss level encounters that they are honestly challenged a bit. Maybe it's the old AD&D player in me, but when a system doesn't work for my group, I look to tweak it, toss it out, or just move on without it.
Also, I am not going to end my campaign at level 13 for the sake of the treasure chart -_- I will not negotiate with terrorist charts sir.
Thank you though, I've been neglecting difficult terrain and traps a bit more than I should. Which should help me challenge them well.
A lot of tables and textThis is actually what I've been using. I've had to start tuning encounters higher for my players. Unfortunately though, the tables suggested for CR don't seem to work in this game. Difficult Encounters are road bumps, Hard encounters force them to think a bit, and it's only when you get to Boss level encounters that they are honestly challenged a bit. Maybe it's the old AD&D player in me, but when a system doesn't work for my group, I look to tweak it, toss it out, or just move on without it.
Also, I am not going to end my campaign at level 13 for the sake of the treasure chart -_- I will not negotiate with terrorist charts sir.
Thank you though, I've been neglecting difficult terrain and traps a bit more than I should. Which should help me challenge them well.
So, your encounters always consist of at least 8 monsters, and up to 32 monsters?
You'be been playing long so you I'm sure you know how to make it work. Magic, ranged, or just insane trap encounters tend to be funny.
Thankfully, my players are mature and solid people all around, so I have been able to keep things moving at a healthy pace...How... Fortuitous?
Chuckle
See what I did there? I, uh... huh.
Yeah.
But is he the only one?
Sorry had to the pun on names had to continue
My group often gets this big or bigger. My rules of thumb are as follows:
1. Never have single monster encounters...period (if I could have a signature in this forum it would be that single monster encounters are always a bad idea even in normal sized games). Have a single monster in a published adventure? Give him a buddy. It just works better in general. And in an 8 player game its crucial.
2. MOAR ENEMIES, dont scale encounters by making some monsters tougher, increase the numbers. This will keep up the difficulty (I would make the CR 4 higher then I would with a 4 person party) but not make any one enemy two tough to hit).
3. Everyone must state what they are doing immediately when their turn comes up. I keep a dry erase board on the table with the intiative written on it. I call out who is next and who the next 2 players will be. When you get called, you must immediately say what you are doing .I move up to that guy and attack him, i full attack with my bow, I cast fireball here *points*. However long it takes to resolve that action is fine, but you must know what you are going to do immediately. No pondering options, looking through books etc during your turn. That should be done while other people are going. The dm is the exception to this ofcourse because he doesnt have the luxary of looking stuff up (when needed) on other peoples turns, he has to pay attention the whole time. But the players should always be ready when their turn comes up. If they arent, they delay untill they are.
Coupla mechanics that work for me:
Roll perception once per player and use that as a "standing score" per scene or hour of game play. Cuts down on busy work.
Let everyone who is going to do a hold action declare their activities before those who are acting on initiative. Cuts down on action ret-cons.
And like the others said, use large groups as adversaries.