Fly Spell Vs Hold Spell

[OnLnAgent]

A couple of players that we play with have a ongoing debate on what happens when someone cast hold on a target using magical flight.

My interpretation of hold is that no action at all can be taken. It does not specify mental or physical. They seem to believe that since flight is magical it is mentally. The do agree that str and dex is reduced to zero as per the paralysis effect. However the flight skill is dex based.

So what happens in this event. Does the target keep moving in the current direction and speed unable to make adjustments, does the target hover unable move, or can the target still fly but at a reduced rate with penalties?

[SlimGauge]

DM call.

Using the friendly search feature, I came up with this thread.

The question boils down to weather being held by Hold Person/Monster is simply paralyzed, or paralyzed PLUS cannot even take mental actions.

I lean towards the exposition in the spell being a reiteration of what the paralyzed condition does.

Hold Person wrote:

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech.

Glossary: Paralyzed Condition wrote:

Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions.

Hold says "cannot take any actions", Paralyzed says "unable to move or act" but then goes on to exempt purely mental actions.

In the interests of simplicity, I'd tend to have only one condition: Paralyzed, and not two; Paralyzed and Held.

EDIT: I found a thread (not on Paizo's site) that contended that since Hold Person is "compulsion (mind affecting)", it is the equivalent of a pre-programmed Dominate Person with the command given "Do Not Move". If this is indeed the case, then if the magical flying being used is capable of hovering (perhaps with a roll required), it would seem that the held person would hover to the best of his ability.

[blahpers]

SlimGauge has a great grasp on the situation. It depends on whether the GM believes hold person's text overrides the usual paralyzed condition rules or merely reiterates them while leaving out a few details. I rule it as paralyzed, so I allow mental actions.

The dominate interpretation is interesting; I hadn't thought of it that way.

[Mojorat]

One common mistake that seems to come up in hold person threads is the mental actions thing. There is no definition of them in the game. This means if something says you get no actions you get no actions. Mental or physical. You need to take an action to fly ergo you cannot while held.

[blahpers]

When a term does not have a game-specific, the reader should use the common language definition for the term rather than simply discard the term as meaningless. If this is vague or has multiple interpretations, it's the GM's call to resolve the ambiguity.

If you didn't do this, you'd end up with none of the rules meaning anything at all, since rules are made of terms and other words, and each term in a rules definition either (a) has no rules definition and is thus meaningless or (b) has a rules definition, which is itself made up of terms and other words. . . . Eventually, magic missile doesn't exist because the words in its definition do not have infinitely recursive definitions.

So, hold person-specific text aside, it is presumed that if a condition such as paralyzed leaves you able to take "purely mental actions", then the phrase has at least a theoretical meaning, and the GM is the ultimate arbiter of what that meaning is.

In my experience, a paralyzed character can generally communicate telepathically, activate the Evil Eye hex, or cast a spell requiring no components at all (such as a Still, Silent spell with no material component or Eschew Materials).

[Dave Justus]

The Fly spell grants you a fly speed, and that method of flying doesn't use wings, but isn't described as purely mental either. It requires a move action, uses the dex based fly skill for difficult situations, and takes as much concentration as walking.

So it appears to be a physical activity of some sort. I'd certainly rule that hold person would prevent flying movement.

[blahpers]

Quote:

The Fly spell grants you a fly speed, and that method of flying doesn't use wings, but isn't described as purely mental either. It requires a move action, uses the dex based fly skill for difficult situations, and takes as much concentration as walking.

So it appears to be a physical activity of some sort. I'd certainly rule that hold person would prevent flying movement.

I would allow fly to work, but my justification is no better than yours.

[Remy Balster]

Hold Person: "The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech."

Enchantment - Compulsion.

- "freezes in place."

I do not understand how Fly spell allows anyone to ignore an Enchantment - Compulsion effect to freeze in place. That seems silly.

The spell description spells it out, you freeze in place. That means no moving.

I could see an argument for telepathy, or even some spell actions etc. But nothing that allows you to move. Because you are compelled to not.

[Bizbag]

The Fly spell indicates that its form of flight requires as much concentration as walking. Paralyzed humanoids do not fall prone, so presumably their concentration on "walking/standing" is not broken. By that logic, they wouldn't fall.

On the other hand, the Movement rules say that you need I make a Fly check to hover unless you move a certain distance. With a Good maneuverability, the character receives a +4 bonus to the roll, but must treat their Dex as 0 as well. The Hold Person spell doesn't block instinctive behaviors like breathing, so I say keeping your balance counts for that.

The spell doesn't strictly end, however, so I'd probably rule that te character would descend if they failed, but wouldn't suffer fall damage. There's still enough magic juju to keep them safe from that. That's just an ad hoc though.