"Magenta" alignments: suggestions needed

[Kazaan]

I'm trying to figure out a way to fit "magenta" alignments into the system in a meaningful way. For those unfamiliar with the reference, "magenta" is a color that we can see, but has no real corresponding wavelength of life; it's a trick of the way our eyes perceive color and would be a wavelength of light that is both longer than red light and shorter than blue light (a paradox). "Magenta" alignment would be more lawful than lawful while, at the same time, more chaotic than chaotic (or the analogous version for good and evil). Does anyone know any system or setting that has attempted this and/or terms that were used?

[Pupsocket]

I'm clearly not high enough to follow your ideas.

[golem101]

Add a "strongly", "mildly" and "weakly" quality to each axis of alignment.
Strongly lawful weakly evil.

Can't figure out its use, but oh whatever.

[Umbral Reaver]

Is the utilitarian monster magenta-aligned?

[williamoak]

There have been a few ideas I've seen thrown around, mainly "adding" facets to the alignement chart. While I would never add it myself (too much bookeeping) it can add some complexity, although you would need a good discussion with your players to determine meaning.
Here's the best example I could find on short notice:
http://www.funnyjunk.com/channel/dungeons-n-drags/The+Ultimate+5x5+Alignmen t+Chart/zqgdGmd

It basically adds extra dimensions to each aspect although whether it really is more nuanced (or not) I cant tell.

[Kazaan]

The 5x5 alignment chart is interesting, but it really just adds an extra layer between the edge and TN. What I'm looking for is more of a "wrap-around". How about this; you can declare "magenta" along one axis on which you are not neutral and you count as both extremes at the same time. So you could have a LG character who is "magenta" on the Good-Evil axis and this allows him to fulfill both "good" and "evil" alignment prerequisites (ie. he could be a cleric of Asmodeus, qualify for the Assassin PrC, etc). Basically, magenta between Lawful and Chaotic is the person who's structure and rationale has completely detached from reality. They act Lawful because they follow a code, but their code has nothing to do with reality and no one could ever hope to understand it and it even includes structured ways to change wildly. They act extremely Lawful and extremely Chaotic at the same time and eschew any kind of neutrality. Likewise, magenta between Good and Evil are both extremely Good and extremely Evil at the same time; they enjoy and revel in death while, at the same time, valuing life highly. Of course, this comes with the same drawback as half-breeds have with Bane weapons: if you count as both Lawful and Chaotic, you're adversely affected by both Axiomatic and Anarchic weapon properties, for example. How does that sound?

[golem101]

It sounds Chaotic Neutral.

[Aelryinth]

This sounds like LN using laws that are beyond human comprehension or so bizarre that all actions seem chaotic from our viewpoint.

Imagine if your moral and legal code was defined by what minute of the day it was. You'd be extremely lawful, bound to outside forms, but from the viewpoint of anyone else, you'd be incomprehensibly erratic.

That's what this sounds like.

This is probably a lot like the rules the Fey and the Mythos operate under.

==Aelryinth

[Kazaan]

Ok, I used the concept of a 5x5 chart and came up with a decent diagram for what I'm trying to represent.

5x5 "Magenta" alignment chart

I'm thinking that on the Lawful-Chaotic axis, it would be called something like "Fanatic" so the Lawful-Chaotic scale would run Fanatic>Lawful>Neutral>Chaotic>Fanatic. The only problem is the negative connotation that "Fanatic" has. I'm looking for something closer to Jack Sparrow when they just can't figure out if he's working off an incredibly complicated plan or just making it up as he goes along. He seems free and random, but he also adheres to certain things like saving his last bullet in the first movie, leaning on the "Pirate Laws" in the third, etc. He seems to be extremely Chaotic by default, but sometimes he seems to "wrap around" to pick up Lawful traits without going through Neutral on the way.

Not sure what to call the addition to the Good-Evil scale; I only come up with phrases like "Beyond-Good-And-Evil". Anyone have a suggestion of something a bit more simple and straight-forward?

[Aelryinth]

Chaotic doesn't mean you don't obey laws. It's just the laws tend to be individual codes, without giving a hoot for the greater view of such things.

Fey are a great example. They are often portrayed as being unable to lie, which is an absolute rule. However, they happily play havoc with the truth.
They also hold debts dearer then their lives. How they satisfy them can be quite an experience.

==Aelryinthf

[Irthos]

Batman.

[Indagare]

I tried something like that, but I'm not sure how helpful it will be to you.

[Scott_UAT]

The concept of abstract moral/ethical codes alien to our perception of what a moral code is/could be by its nature defies the moral code system the d20 system presents.

It would have to be defined on a per-case basis. If you wanted do give a blanket ruling, making a more complex matrix wouldn't necessarily serve to cover all possibilities.

Why not just say "Other", "N/A", or "Aberrant" as an alignment type which gains no benefit or penalties from alignment dependent effects. It would be within the design direction of the d20 system as it defines creatures that are too strange or bizarre as "Aberrations".

The question is: Is adding a whole subsystem for the few rare cases where an alien moral code exists an eloquent move or would it just clog down the system? How many people are going to define their character as lawful magenta?

I feel like adding something like this would be akin to adding another column to every weapon table to define its taste if you had a handful of monsters who needed to know what weapon tastes like. Instead you would likely take the approach of defining that certain weapons tastes certain ways within the monster's entry (or possibly as a sidebar).

That's not to say moral approaches such as absurdism couldn't exist within a Pathfinder game. An absurdist (in my mind) would be a CN character.

So in short- "not elegant" is the best feedback I can give.