Can't be toughness, it stacks with Toughness.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for clarifying it.
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Thanks! Now i KNOW to Admiral Ackbar this one.
Wow, so it's a terrible feat then. It's either Toughness with pre-requisites or "Toughness for Skill Ranks" with pre-requisites.
Actually, it's not terrible, because it doesn't replace your "original" choice of favored class bonus; it only sometimes references your "original" choice.
Essentially, the racial benefit from Fast Learner stacks with your original choice at level-up. I explain this in greater detail here.
-Matt
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I suppose there is some limited use for it - some alternate favored class bonuses aren't very appealing for humans (wizard for example). But if you ever intend to take your alternate bonus it's like the feat does nothing for that level, and it already was only comparable to Toughness.
Disappointing but it's good to have clarification.
The post to which Bigdaddyjug refers. Per Stephen's comment there, Fast Learner gives you two options: 1) A hit point and a skill point; 2) A racial favored class bonus.
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Fast Learner is kind of lame with that rule clarification, but it should be noted that most feat chain prerequisites are kind of bland. The point of Fast Learner is to gain access to Improvisation and Improved Improvisation.
In my local E6 game, that feat chain is amazingly useful. I'm having a blast playing a plain old human fighter, which is normally a terrible idea in E6 (play a class whose only real power is having tons of feats in a system where EVERY character gets tons of feats). It's turned a character who would normally be a below average beatstick into a versatile character that can do almost anything. Once I grab the helpful and supportive traits and he'll be an aid another machine, too.
Improv & Improved Improv seem really nice for a low level game, but between the Int requirement and the depth of the feat chain, their value is fairly limited much past the earliest level you can actually finish the chain at. You need to be playing a low skill point class and be able to afford both the point buy for the Int requirement and the feat cost of the entire chain.
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The feat does exactly what it says it does (grammatically). If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
But what if we want our choice of two of the three...really, Really, REALLY badly? ;)
The feat does exactly what it says it does (grammatically). If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
Then alternate FCBs should never have been mentioned in the feat, as it has no interaction with them whatsoever.
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Then alternate FCBs should never have been mentioned in the feat, as it has no interaction with them whatsoever.The feat does exactly what it says it does (grammatically). If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
Except in that case you'd have had some people arguing that when you took Fast Learner you no longer got a choice at all: "It says once you take it you get a hit point and a skill point at level. That means when you take the feat you forfeit the ability to take FCBs!"
Darned if they did, darned if they didn't.
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The feat does exactly what it says it does (grammatically). If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
Oh wow, I'd forgotten all about this question. Thanks for the update!
Then why not change the wording to something that makes more sense, like;
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you may gain +1 Hit Point and +1 Skill Rank, or you can choose an alternate class reward.
Normal: When you gain a level in a favored class, you may choose 1 hit point, 1 skill rank, or an alternate class reward.That makes it much simpler and explains the intent of the feat without much confusion.
What you've suggested is effectively already what it says though:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
It's just removed the middle sentence beginning with "...instead of..." I don't think that would really eliminate the confusion.
"When you use your favored class bonus to gain a hit point, you also gain a skill point"
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Really I never thought the wording was unclear, I was truly hoping that the wording was mistaken. While there are certainly clearer ways to write it, as written it makes sense; it's just a super weak feat choice. Its effects are pretty much inferior to Toughness in every way.
Toughness each level:
choose: +2 hp
+1 hp +1 skill point
+1 hp and alternate bonus
Fast learner each level:
choose:
+1 hp +1 skill point
alternate bonus
Fewer options, and generally worse. "Two of A,B,C" would have at leats allowed the option of +1 skill point and alternate bonus, which is not completely eclipsed by Toughness.
Stephen's clarification was better than the original feat as written: If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
He removed: instead of choosing either one or the other benefit
removing any ambiguity. He further clarified by writing:
You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
I don't think there can be any further ambiguity for this feat, which is still a good feat. It's just not as versatile as some folks thought it was.
It has (some) use as basically "More Toughness", at least for single-classed characters. Who don't want their racial alternate FCB. But it's of no use otherwise.
Stephen's clarification was better than the original feat as written: If you have this feat you can either choose +1 hit point and +1 skill rank, or you can choose the alternate class reward.
He removed: instead of choosing either one or the other benefit
removing any ambiguity. He further clarified by writing:You do not get your choice of two of the three, but it does not preclude you from taking an alternate class reward if you choose to do that instead.
I don't think there can be any further ambiguity for this feat, which is still a good feat. It's just not as versatile as some folks thought it was.
He didn't just remove ambiguity, he completely changed the meaning of the feat.
Choosing +1 hit point and +1 skill point was specifically instead of choosing one or the other. The alternate class reward was not instead of; like every other feat in the game it was in addition to. You could pick an alternate class reward and still get your normal +1 hit point or +1 skill point.
That's how I interpret the grammar of the feat. I prefer my reading because it unambiguous, doesn't have any confusing or redundant text, and it makes the feat actually worth something.
Not that I don't see the advantages of an ambiguous, confusing, worthless interpretation; it's just not for me.
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He didn't just remove ambiguity, he completely changed the meaning of the feat.
Choosing +1 hit point and +1 skill point was specifically instead of choosing one or the other. The alternate class reward was not instead of; like every other feat in the game it was in addition to. You could pick an alternate class reward and still get your normal +1 hit point or +1 skill point.
That's how I interpret the grammar of the feat. I prefer my reading because it unambiguous, doesn't have any confusing or redundant text, and it makes the feat actually worth something.
Not that I don't see the advantages of an ambiguous, confusing, worthless interpretation; it's just not for me.
That may be your interpretation but it is not what the feat does.
That may be your interpretation but it is not what the feat does.He didn't just remove ambiguity, he completely changed the meaning of the feat.
Choosing +1 hit point and +1 skill point was specifically instead of choosing one or the other. The alternate class reward was not instead of; like every other feat in the game it was in addition to. You could pick an alternate class reward and still get your normal +1 hit point or +1 skill point.
That's how I interpret the grammar of the feat. I prefer my reading because it unambiguous, doesn't have any confusing or redundant text, and it makes the feat actually worth something.
Not that I don't see the advantages of an ambiguous, confusing, worthless interpretation; it's just not for me.
I'll concede the point. Seeing as you wrote the feat, you would know how you intended it to work.
Perhaps a FAQ or errata would be in order to clear up the existing ambiguity and confusion.
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Alternate rewards generally are stronger than the basic rewards, but that is partially balanced by the fact that you need to be of the right race to get them.
Allowing both kinds of rewards for the cost of a feat would be fairly powerful.
And then some people would start saying "If I can take A+C it mean that I can take C1+C2, substituting another alternate reward for the base reward again, right?"
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Alternate rewards generally are stronger than the basic rewards,,,Based on what proof? Is this a definitive statement by a dev? If so, how do they determine that any alternative class feature is better than 1hp or 1skp?
Experience with the rewards.
1 more know spell for a spontaneous caster? Stronger than 1 hp1 more arcana point for a magus? stronger than 3 hp
More damage with the appropriate spells? stronger
Having an ability working as if you where one or more level higher? Stronger
They are stronger as you get to tailor them to your character and you choose what alternate abilities better suit him/her.
For your build adding "+1 bonus on concentration checks when casting paladin spells" can be a no issue, for someone that want to make a spellcasting paladin it can be very useful.
Any options that allow you to better customize your character is stronger that not having that option, even if you decide not to use the option.
Alternate rewards generally are stronger than the basic rewards, but that is partially balanced by the fact that you need to be of the right race to get them.
Some are stronger, some are weaker. Depending on what you want from your build. Also depend on what level we are talking about. At lower levels the bonus spell is just a cantrip so you are better of picking a skill point or a hit point.
Edit: This is especially true if you are a bard. My bard actaully picked some bonus skills (or was it HP) over more first level spells known.
Allowing both kinds of rewards for the cost of a feat would be fairly powerful.
I disagree immensely.
Let’s compare Fast Learner to toughness.1)
Fast Learner comes with two prereqs: Human and int 13
Toughness comes with no prereq
2)
Fast Learner grant you a hit point at level 1
Toughness grants you at least 3 hit points at level 1.
3)
Fast Learner only grants a bonus if you stay in your favored class
Toughness grants a bonus to any class
3a)
Fast Learner don’t grant any bonus to bonus Hit Die.
Toughness grants a bonus to bonus Hit Die
4)
Fast Learner don’t grant you anything if you choose an alternate class reward
Toughness still grant you a hit point if you choose an alternate class reward.
5)
Fast Learner lets you pick one hit point and one skill point each level as long as you stick to your favorite class.
Toughness grants you a hit point each level and lets you pick whatever favorite class bonus you want. So you can choose:
- Hit Point + Hit Point or
- Hit Point + Skill Point or
- Hit Point + Alternate Alass Reward.
As pointed out above Toughness even grant you a benefit when you multi-class into a class that isn’t a favored class or if you have bonus HD.
6)
: Fast Learner is a horrible feat. Even if it would allow both kinds of rewards for the cost of a feat would still be less powerful than toughness. Especially since the prereq already is Human + int 13, meaning you are allready getting +2 skills per level.
Let’s say you are a human fighter or a Cleric with int 13. You get 4 skills per level. That is good enough. You might just as well pick toughness and start with con 12. Remaining 3 points can be spent on your preferred stat or even on int.
I see opinion, I don't see any proof.
+1
edit:
1 more know spell for a spontaneous caster? Stronger than 1 hp? I’m not sure. Depends on what build, level, party and Campaign we are talking about.
1 more arcana point for a magus? stronger than 3 hp? I’m not sure. Depends build, level, party and Campaign.
More damage with the appropriate spells? Stronger? I’m not sure. Depends on build, level, party and Campaign.
Having an ability working as if you where one or more level higher? Stronger? I’m not sure. Depends on build, level, party and Campaign.
Let’s take a level 8 Aasimar Bard that want to boost his inspire courage.
At level 4 he counts as level 6 so his inspire courage is +2 instead of +1.
Is it good? Sure. Is it groundbreaking? No. Is 4 skills or 4 hit points Better? It depends.
If you ask the player when his Bard is level 5 the answer will be no because at level at level 5 it is still only +2 and a normal bard will have inspire courage +2 at level 5 anyway.
And it goes on.
At level 8 his inspire courage is +3 instead of +2. Good? Sure. Groundbreaking? Hardly.
So at level 1-3 no bonus. Level 5 – 7 no bonus.
At level 4 and 8 it will be +1 higher than normal.
Edit 2:
It’s actually not until level 12 that the bard’s inspire courage is more powerful every level.
So is +1 to inspire courage “Stronger” than 8 hit point/skill points. I would say it depends. At level 5? No. At level 8? Perhaps.
At Pathfinder Society you only play to level 12, right?
This means the alternate class reward will not be a reward most of the time.
Level 1-3 + 5-7 + 11 = No reward
Level 4 + 8-10 + 12 = Reward
If you had picked skill points or hit points you would get a bonus every level.
Having an ability working as if you where one or more level higher is not stronger, nor is it weaker, it is just an option and options are good.
Toughness gives you options, Fast Learner don't.
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Experience with the rewards.
1 more know spell for a spontaneous caster? Stronger than 1 hp
1 more arcana point for a magus? stronger than 3 hp
More damage with the appropriate spells? stronger
Having an ability working as if you where one or more level higher? StrongerThey are stronger as you get to tailor them to your character and you choose what alternate abilities better suit him/her.
For your build adding "+1 bonus on concentration checks when casting paladin spells" can be a no issue, for someone that want to make a spellcasting paladin it can be very useful.
Any options that allow you to better customize your character is stronger that not having that option, even if you decide not to use the option.
I see opinion, I don't see any proof.
No, any option to customize your character isn't stronger than not having that option. If the option were demonstrably inferior, then it would be better to not have that option less people choose it out of ignorance.
And as long as we are passing off opinion as proof, the fact that a Wizard and Sorcerer both get the same Alternate Class option to add a spell is odd and suggests there was no methodical attempt to "balance" the choices.
Ok, opinion, but then, please avoid the same mistake. You state your opinions as a facts and then say that other opinions don't count. try playing nice.
And to you and Zark, maybe you should read more carefully:
Alternate rewards generally are stronger than the basic rewards,,,
Never stated that it was always true.
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Howdy, everyone. Someone had a rules question, and I answered it. Like always, I understand if not everyone likes the answer, but that's what we do in this forum...answer rules questions.
Keep it civil, and you can continue to discuss this issue, but if the arguments get too heated or off topic, I will close it.
Good gaming, everyone, and have a great day.
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Like always, I understand if not everyone likes the answer, but that's what we do in this forum...answer rules questions.
I kind of want this framed. Or maybe posted in red at the top of the screen, visible whenever one is viewing a page in the Rules Questions forum. ;)
Because 1) Although the wording can be read in an ambiguous fashion, Stephen's interpretation is a grammatically proper one; and 2) Because a designer (the designer who created the feat?) said so?
If you go to a restaurant and they have three menu options - fish, beef, and chicken - and you get one of the three when you order, you know you get fish or beef or chicken. If you then go in one day and the server says, "We're offering a special today! You can get the beef and fish, or you can still get chicken," do you assume that one of your options is beef and chicken? I wouldn't; I'd assume that I can get a Surf and Turf special, or I can get the chicken as usual.
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And I'm sure, should SRM (or any developer, for that matter) explain the rationale, you'd stop arguing for the sake of pointing out how much you dislike the rationale. Right?
Howdy, everyone. Someone had a rules question, and I answered it. Like always, I understand if not everyone likes the answer, but that's what we do in this forum...answer rules questions.I think many of us would greatly appreciate an explanation as to why the feat works this way.
Without the feat, we see a 1=1=1 relationship. After the feat we see a (1+1)=1 relationship. Perhaps you can understand why this is confusing as there is no information in the feat or anywhere else in the game that would explain why the feat would work in this manner.
Well, the feat is designed that way because it was the designer turn over, and we thought it was a pretty good feat for the human section of the Advanced Race Guide. :)
It also splits the focus, which speaks to the diversity of the human experience described in the chapter where the feat is found. I know, that combat heavy character might want to skip the skill bonus, and just go for two martial or combat advantages instead, but that was not what we were describing in the chain or the chapter, so the feat grants you a diversity of experience, one on the combat side and one on the skill side.
At the same time, we didn't want to take away the option for favored class rewards. In the end, you take the feat, you get more bang for your buck, but you still have the options of choosing the favored class reward.
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If the restaurant is offering a Surf and Turf special where you can get a combo of beef and fish... why even mention chicken at all?
I'll repeat my question: Would you assume that in the scenario I presented, you can get* beef and chicken?
I agree that the repetition of chicken in the scenario is redundant. Where I disagree is that the redundancy would cause most people in that scenario to assume that you could get beef and chicken.
*Or are intended to be able to choose.
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Howdy, everyone. Someone had a rules question, and I answered it. Like always, I understand if not everyone likes the answer, but that's what we do in this forum...answer rules questions.I think many of us would greatly appreciate an explanation as to why the feat works this way.
Without the feat, we see a 1=1=1 relationship. After the feat we see a (1+1)=1 relationship. Perhaps you can understand why this is confusing as there is no information in the feat or anywhere else in the game that would explain why the feat would work in this manner.
Well, the feat is designed that way because it was the designer turn over, and we thought it was a pretty good feat for the human section of the Advanced Race Guide. :)
It also splits the focus, which speaks to the diversity of the human experience described in the chapter where the feat is found. I know, that combat heavy character might want to skip the skill bonus, and just go for two martial or combat advantages instead, but that was not what we were describing in the chain or the chapter, so the feat grants you a diversity of experience, one on the combat side and one on the skill side.
At the same time, we didn't want to take away the option for favored class rewards. In the end, you take the feat, you get more bang for your buck, but you still have the options of choosing the favored class reward.
I accept your ruling, but don’t understand how this feat grants you any more diversity than toughness. As I shown above toughness actually grants you more diversity.
Or have I misunderstood something?Very cool and nice of you giving us feedback and explanations :)
I accept your ruling, but don’t understand how this feat grants you any more diversity than toughness. As I shown above toughness actually grants you more diversity.
Or have I misunderstood something?Very cool and nice of you giving us feedback and explanations :)
Well, you are very welcome on the feedback and explanation. I try to do my part, and with Sean leaving, I have some big shoes to fill. :(
As far as the diversity, it give you extra hit points, that stack with toughness, and skill ranks, which stack with Skill focus, instead of giving you one or the other (which is the norm, not counting the favored class rewards which are by nature more specialized...the class-based outlier, as I tend to look at it).
Two things, that speak to a human's tendency for diversity and resolve, instead of talking to one or the other, which is what you normally get.
If the restaurant is offering a Surf and Turf special where you can get a combo of beef and fish... why even mention chicken at all?I'll repeat my question: Would you assume that in the scenario I presented, you can get* beef and chicken?
I agree that the repetition of chicken in the scenario is redundant. Where I disagree is that the redundancy would cause most people in that scenario to assume that you could get beef and chicken.
*Or are intended to be able to choose.
I'd ask the waiter to clarify, then suggest that he just not even mention the chicken to the next customer (seeing it has nothing to do with the special) because it's confusing.
Which is pretty much what most people in this thread did.
Also, your analogy is inaccurate.
A better analogy would be: You can get beef or fish or chicken; or, for an additional charge, you can get the beef and the fish, or you can get the chicken.
In this case you can see the confusion of paying an additional charge to get is the chicken, since you can get the chicken without paying extra. Better to not mention the chicken at all when explaining the special.
Sean leaving?
Yes, sadly. Here is a post about it.
When you have the time, wish him well in the new chapter of his life. He will be sorely missed around here (and sitting next to me in the office).
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Fast Learner is in most ways inferior to Toughness. There are two situations where a character would want to take Fast Learner:
1) He already has Toughness and wants yet another extra hit point or skill point per level, or
2) He wants to set himself up to take a feat that has Fast Learner as a prerequisite.