Shield Master


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29 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

This post is for FAQ purposes.

Shield Master wrote:

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

Part, the First! Shield Master states that they don't suffer attack penalties with a shield while they are wielding another weapon.

No attack penalties. As written, this would allow a Shield Master to ignore the attack penalty from Feats or abilities like Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively, while still gaining the bonuses. I doubt this is the intention of the feat, but it is the way it's written. I believe the intention was to negate the TWF penalty, and that's how I rule it.

As written, anything that grants a penalty is ignored, this also includes things like attack penalties from spells, or other effects. It doesn't negate penalties from having a lower strength, but anything that directly applies a penalty to attack rolls, would be negated by this feat.

Obviously, this is extremely powerful.

Part, the Second! Shield Master further states you gain an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the shield. So a +5 shield also functions as a +5 weapon.

How does this interact with a Defending weapon? Can a +5 Shield/+1 Defending Shield gain be bumped up to a +5/+5 Defending Shield when it attacks, and sacrifice the +5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls to further boost the characters AC? Effectively doubling the +5 enhancement bonus?

Again, I doubt this is the intention, but it remains a possibility.

FAQ it and Discuss please.

Shadow Lodge

I smell cheese coming on. But RAW you can power attack fight defenisely combat expertise two-weapon fight with 2 shields and use your full base attack bonus. Now, any sane GM that can make a DC-50 UCS(Use Common Sense) check will say that it only applies to the two-weapon fighting penalty. AND this won't work in PFS because there is a UCS clause in the guide to organized play I believe, which is to help prevent cheese characters. Which is nice all alone because you can ignore a -2 or -4 penalty with the feat.

I don't the that the defending shield will work because defending is a weapon property, not an enhancement bonus and the feat specifically states enhancement bonuses apply, not other effects.


Part the first, I would suggest that the intent is to only remove TWF penalties and nothing else. Sure it doesn't say that, but I wouldn't allow someone with this feat to ignore negative levels just because the feat is poorly worded.

Part the second, Your shield doesn't have two enhancement bonuses. It grants you a +5 enhancement bonus to your shield bonus to AC. The feat allows you to add that enhancement bonus to your attack rolls. As for the Defending property

Defending wrote:
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn. This ability can only be placed on melee weapons.

Transfer to me would imply that you are giving up an enhancement bonus to increase your AC. If you give up your +5 enhancement bonus to increase your AC by 5, then nothing has changed, you still have +5 to your AC.


I understand and agree with both of you, which is why I posted the FAQ. It just seems to me that Shield Master has quite a bit that needs to be clarified and reigned in.

Imagine a Dual Shield Bash character using Part, the First as his intention in a build, combined with Part, the Second (assuming it were possible).

The adding the Shield enhancement bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus is already extremely powerful, because AC enhancement is half the price of weapon enhancement. So you're getting weapon enhancement at half-price. To me, that is, in-and-of-itself, worth a feat.

So half-priced weapons (which are quarter priced if crafted), plus ignoring penalties? This Feat needs an errata.


If you are enchanting a shield with a weapon quality, I would make you pay the magic weapon cost.


I thought the weapon idea was in the FAQ. As for negating all penalties it might not read well but it is a possibility unless it is a possible intent no matter how it reads. Go to the dead condition for an example of how something read, but it never being the actual intent.

PS: I thought I saw a ruling on the shield acting as a weapon, but now I can't find it, and it was recently. If I locate it then I will post it.

Grand Lodge

A Shield is a weapon.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
A Shield is a weapon.

BBT shield master read as saying it has rules exception allowing you to use your enchancement bonus to the shield as your enhancement bonus for the purpose of using it as weapon also. Basically you double dip for the price of armor.

That would save a lot of money.


Part the First: I also believe it to be RAI that it only applies to the TWF chain for the penalties ignored.

Part the Second: In order to have the defending property, you have to pay for it as a weapon. This is in the description of both Light and Heavy shields, since it can be enchanted as both. It is also like a double weapon, in that you pay the weapon and shield costs separately, not 1.5 again for the armor enchants.

Now, that being said, IF a player decides to spend 300k on a +10(AC enchant)/+10(Weapon enchant) shield, AND IF you actually let him have it as a GM, then you shouldn't have any qualms about him using a +5 d6-2d6(if you include large impact) 20x2 weapon, while getting +12 AC (Heavy shield +2, +5 Armor enhancement, +5 from Defending Weapon) from it. It's a 300,000 gp item, damn near an artifact at that point, and you if let him have it, he should get full benefit of spending a major chunk of his wealth into a single item that could be stolen, sundered, or disarmed.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Part the First: I also believe it to be RAI that it only applies to the TWF chain for the penalties ignored.

Part the Second: In order to have the defending property, you have to pay for it as a weapon. This is in the description of both Light and Heavy shields, since it can be enchanted as both. It is also like a double weapon, in that you pay the weapon and shield costs separately, not 1.5 again for the armor enchants.

Now, that being said, IF a player decides to spend 300k on a +10(AC enchant)/+10(Weapon enchant) shield, AND IF you actually let him have it as a GM, then you shouldn't have any qualms about him using a +5 d6-2d6(if you include large impact) 20x2 weapon, while getting +12 AC (Heavy shield +2, +5 Armor enhancement, +5 from Defending Weapon) from it. It's a 300,000 gp item, damn near an artifact at that point, and you if let him have it, he should get full benefit of spending a major chunk of his wealth into a single item that could be stolen, sundered, or disarmed.

A shield wouldn't have two different enhancement bonuses. It has one enhancement bonus and that enhancement bonus only applies to shield bonus, not attack rolls. The feat allows you to apply the enhancement bonus to attack rolls. It doesn't grant you the ability to enchant the shield twice.


RAW Shield Master is apparently an extremely overpowered feat.
RAI Shield Master is a very good feat.


Part, the Second: I'm not sure it was very clear in my initial post, but the idea is to give the shield a +5 enhancement bonus. Then, give the Shield a +1 enhancement bonus, and the Defending property, as a weapon.

Shields wrote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

The Shield has two enhancement slots, one used for armor, one used as a weapon. Theoretically, you could have a +10 (+5 armor and +5 armor abilities)/+10 (+5 weapon and +5 weapon abilities) shield.

Shield Master lets you save some money when enhancing a shield as a weapon. You could enhance the shield as a +5 armor/+1 and then stack +9 worth of weapon properties on it (Corrosive, Fire, Frost, Shock, Holy, Speed for example) and when you bash with it, it's a +5 Corrosive, Fire, Frost, Shock, Holy, Speed weapon.

The question, then, becomes, how much enhancement can a shield with the Defending property, as a weapon, re-allocate? When a Shield Master bashes, his +5 armor/+1 Defending weapon shield, becomes a +5 armor/+5 Defending weapon shield. Can he re-allocate the +5 weapon enhancement gained from Shield Master? Or can he only re-allocate the +1 that the Shield actually has as a weapon?

If so, this means the +5 armor enhancement is being applied to armor twice, which I don't think it was intended to do.

It's confusing, because the shield is the only defensive item, that can also be offensive, like this in the game. At least as far as I know of.


Where are you getting the idea that a shield has an enhancement bonus for attacks? It does not. You just quouted the relevant rule. Enhancement bonus does not improve effectiveness of a shield bash with it. Nowhere in any of these rules does it say that your shield has two different enhancement bonuses.

You can make a +5 Defending heavy shield. It will give you +5 to your shield bonus but no bonus on attack rolls. The feat allows you to add the bonus you are receiving to your shield bonus to your attack rolls. The only items that can have two enhancement bonuses on them are double weapons and you enchant each end of the weapon separately.

Since your shield has a +5 enhancement bonus, transferring that bonus to your AC does nothing for you as you are giving up one +5 bonus and gaining another.


Robert A Matthews wrote:

Where are you getting the idea that a shield has an enhancement bonus for attacks? It does not. You just quouted the relevant rule. Enhancement bonus does not improve effectiveness of a shield bash with it. Nowhere in any of these rules does it say that your shield has two different enhancement bonuses.

You can make a +5 Defending heavy shield. It will give you +5 to your shield bonus but no bonus on attack rolls. The feat allows you to add the bonus you are receiving to your shield bonus to your attack rolls. The only items that can have two enhancement bonuses on them are double weapons and you enchant each end of the weapon separately.

Since your shield has a +5 enhancement bonus, transferring that bonus to your AC does nothing for you as you are giving up one +5 bonus and gaining another.

Shields wrote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

An enhancement bons on the shield does not affect the attack roll. Just like if you are wearing +5 full plate, you don't get +5 to attack and damage when you punch someone with the gauntlets that the suit has.

Huh, now that I think about it, Gauntlets also fall into the same category as Shields, they just don't have the corresponding feats.

Anyway, you can enhance the shield as both armor, and a weapon. Two separate enhancements. You can have a +1 shield that has also been enhanced as a +3 weapon.

I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time comprehending this, it's clearly spelled out in the single sentence I quoted.


It can be made into a magic weapon, yes. But nowhere in that paragraph does it say that you can put another enhancement bonus on the shield. You can only have an enhancement bonus to your shield bonus on the shield. There is not enhancement bonus to attack rolls. Even if there was, you wouldn't apply that bonus to attack rolls because the rules say you don't. The enhancement bonus you are applying to your attack rolls with Shield Master is the same enhancement bonus you are applying to your shield. It is one bonus used for both effects.

As for gauntlets that are part of magic armor:

Magic Armor wrote:
Armor is always created so that if the type of armor comes with a pair of boots, a helm, or a set of gauntlets, these pieces can be exchanged for other magic boots, helms, or gauntlets.


I'm not going to bother arguing with you, it's obvious neither one of us will agree.


7 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can armor that double as weapons, such as gauntlets or shields, be enhanced separately as armor and weapons? For example, enhancing a shield as +1 to AC while also enhancing the shield as +1 to hit and damage?

If so, what is the cap on the enhancement properties? Can you go for a full +10/+10? Or must the item only have a maximum possible enhancement bonus (of either type) of +10 (splitting it +5/+5 or +3/+7 or +9/+1 etc).


While i agree the shield master has a clear RAW vs RAI problem, my group has argued over the +10 cap on shields before and i'd love a clarification, is the shield maxed at +5/+5 or +10/+10.. faq'd both posts..


I'm trying to think if I have seen a published shield (preferably for Pathfinder) that had both a shield enhancement and a weapon enhancement. I want to say I have seen one, but I cannot think of where. Has anyone seen one?


It says that the shield enhancement bonus to AC doesn't give you any hit/damage bonuses, but as was bolded above, it can be made into a magic weapon as well.

In order for this to function at all, it would have to be two separate "pools" of enhancements. One pool from the weapon list, and one from the shield list. Double weapons are a good rule to mirror, since it has the option for both, in order to keep it balanced rules wise.

Now, I wouldn't let you use the Defending Weapon property to modify the Armor enhancement property, since that would be the worst cheese in this situation. However, if someone wanted to pay for +6 weapon cost on top of the +whatever armor costs, I would let that work to use only the weapon total for the defending total.

If you lowered the shield enhancement bonus for defending, then it is lowered, and you wouldn't get it to hit/damage any more because it is reassigned before the shield master feat kicks in.


Dosgamer wrote:
I'm trying to think if I have seen a published shield (preferably for Pathfinder) that had both a shield enhancement and a weapon enhancement. I want to say I have seen one, but I cannot think of where. Has anyone seen one?

Here is a published NPC that uses a +5 Heavy Shield of Bashing that has the Shield Master feat and is adding the +5 enhancement bonus from the shield to their attack bonus. This shield only has one enhancement bonus and is being applied to both his AC and attack rolls.

Scarred Wanderer:
SCARRED WANDERER CR 19
XP 204,800
Dwarf barbarian 20
CN Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +2; Senses Perception +25
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 10, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, –2 rage, +7 shield)
hp 415 (20d12+280)
Fort +28, Ref +12, Will +18; +9 vs. spells and spell-like abilities, +4 vs. enchantments, +2 vs. poison and supernatural abilities
Defensive Abilities 70% chance to negate critical hits and sneak attacks, defensive training (+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants), improved uncanny dodge, indomitable will, trap sense +6; DR 8/—; Immune frightened, harmful vapors and gases, nauseated, shaken, sickened
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee+5 bashing spiked heavy shield +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+11) or +5 bashing spiked heavy shield +29/+24/+19/+14 (2d6+11), +1 adamantine dwarven waraxe +25 (1d10+4/×3)
Special Attacks +1 on attack rolls against goblinoid and orc humanoids, mighty rage (50 rounds/day), rage powers (clear mind, fearless rage, increased damage reduction +3, internal fortitude, knockback, mighty swing, strength surge +20, superstition +7)
TACTICS
During Combat The barbarian breaks up enemy positions with bull rush. He always includes knockback and Shield Slam, and adds strength surge against strong enemies.
Base Statistics When not raging, the barbarian's statistics are AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 24; hp 335; Fort +24, Will+14; +2 vs. poison, spells, and spell-like abilities, no bonus vs. supernatural abilities or enchantments; DR 5/—; Melee+5 bashing spiked heavy shield +27/+22/+17/+12 (2d6+7) or +5 bashing spiked heavy shield +25/+20/+15/+10 (2d6+7), +1 adamantine dwarven waraxe +21 (1d10+2/×3); Str 14, Con 26; CMB +22; CMD 34; Skills Climb +16.
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 34, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +20; CMB +26 (+30 bull rush); CMD 36 (42 vs. bull rush, 40 vs. trip)
Feats Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Shield Bash, Iron Will, Lunge, Power Attack, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills Acrobatics +22, Climb +20, Intimidate +20, Linguistics +3, Perception +25 (+27 to notice unusual stonework), Profession (miner) +5, Survival +6
Languages Common, Dwarven, Giant, Terran, Undercommon
SQ fast movement, tireless rage
Combat Gearpotion of cure moderate wounds, potions of haste (2); Other Gear+1 heavy fortification breastplate, +5 bashing spiked heavy steel shield, +1 adamantine dwarven waraxe, belt of mighty constitution +6, cloak of resistance +4, necklace of adaptation, ring of feather falling, winged boots, 150 gp

Grand Lodge

A shield is weapon, can be enchanted as a weapon, is a valid option for weapon specific feats(like Weapon Focus), and is part of a Fighter weapon group.

A shield is a weapon.

You don't need to jump through magical hoops, based on made up unwritten rules, to use a shield as a weapon, or enchant it as a weapon.

There is nothing that can be done with the average melee weapon, that cannot be done with a shield.

Why?

This is because a shield is a weapon.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

A shield is weapon, can be enchanted as a weapon, is a valid option for weapon specific feats(like Weapon Focus), and is part of a Fighter weapon group.

A shield is a weapon.

You don't need to jump through magical hoops, based on made up unwritten rules, to use a shield as a weapon, or enchant it as a weapon.

There is nothing that can be done with the average melee weapon, that cannot be done with a shield.

Why?

This is because a shield is a weapon.

I think everyone understands that.

What isn't quite clear is that normally, when adding magical enhancements to an item, you're 'capped' at a +5 bonus (+10 with alternate enhancements applied).

The question is, is that a +10 cap per type of enhancement - i.e., a +5 to AC and +5 in defensive enhancements along with a +5 to attack\damage and +5 in weapon enhancements - or is it a hard +10 cap that takes both defensive and weapon enhancements into account?

I've personally always assumed the latter, with the house rule that you can choose a +5 weapon and +5 AC enhancement, but then can't put anything else on it.


Xaratherus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A shield is weapon, can be enchanted as a weapon, is a valid option for weapon specific feats(like Weapon Focus), and is part of a Fighter weapon group.

A shield is a weapon.

You don't need to jump through magical hoops, based on made up unwritten rules, to use a shield as a weapon, or enchant it as a weapon.

There is nothing that can be done with the average melee weapon, that cannot be done with a shield.

Why?

This is because a shield is a weapon.

I think everyone understands that.

What isn't quite clear is that normally, when adding magical enhancements to an item, you're 'capped' at a +5 bonus (+10 with alternate enhancements applied).

The question is, is that a +10 cap per type of enhancement - i.e., a +5 to AC and +5 in defensive enhancements along with a +5 to attack\damage and +5 in weapon enhancements - or is it a hard +10 cap that takes both defensive and weapon enhancements into account?

I've personally always assumed the latter, with the house rule that you can choose a +5 weapon and +5 AC enhancement, but then can't put anything else on it.

I'd disagree with you on that and run the shield the same way a double weapon is handled. But I don't have any rules to quote that state that shields are handled like double weapons.


Xaratherus wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

A shield is weapon, can be enchanted as a weapon, is a valid option for weapon specific feats(like Weapon Focus), and is part of a Fighter weapon group.

A shield is a weapon.

You don't need to jump through magical hoops, based on made up unwritten rules, to use a shield as a weapon, or enchant it as a weapon.

There is nothing that can be done with the average melee weapon, that cannot be done with a shield.

Why?

This is because a shield is a weapon.

I think everyone understands that.

What isn't quite clear is that normally, when adding magical enhancements to an item, you're 'capped' at a +5 bonus (+10 with alternate enhancements applied).

The question is, is that a +10 cap per type of enhancement - i.e., a +5 to AC and +5 in defensive enhancements along with a +5 to attack\damage and +5 in weapon enhancements - or is it a hard +10 cap that takes both defensive and weapon enhancements into account?

I've personally always assumed the latter, with the house rule that you can choose a +5 weapon and +5 AC enhancement, but then can't put anything else on it.

You're capped at +10 for weapons, and capped at +10 on armor enhancements. I believe these are separate; the shield is just unusual in that it qualifies for both types.

So I suggest it be treated like any other slotted item that can carry more than one enhancement type; like a Ring of Protection +1 And Feather Falling, you pay a premium for putting two enhancements on one item. The Shield Mastery feat lets you save a lot of gold, though, because it lets you use your shield's Armor enhancement AS its weapon enhancement; ordinarily you'd pay separate for that.

Also, reading the ability as anything other than "No two-weapon fighting penalty" is ludicrous. I can see the absolute technicality of the "ambiguity", but it requires such incredible willful ignorance as to be nonsense. Such a situation would mean that a sickened, exhausted, strength-damaged, power-attacking, prone character would somehow ignore all penalties. There has to be some level of common sense when you read the rules; especially since TWF is a prerequisite feat and actually fighting with two weapons triggers the operant part of the ability.


@Bizbag: I don't think anyone would actually let the feat do what it strictly speaking says it does. It was simply a question of whether or not it was RAW to ignore all direct penalties on to hit. This is definitely one of the times where common sense should trumph rules.


When we had a character with shield mastery he had armour spikes. The spikes are clearly enchanted seperately from the shield. At the time when he tried the double dipping thing I suggested he was either attacking with the spikes or the shield as far as which bonuses to use. But I'm pretty sure this isn't raw.

As far as which bonused are negated I'm pretty sure its just the base twf penalty.


Mojorat wrote:

When we had a character with shield mastery he had armour spikes. The spikes are clearly enchanted seperately from the shield. At the time when he tried the double dipping thing I suggested he was either attacking with the spikes or the shield as far as which bonuses to use. But I'm pretty sure this isn't raw.

As far as which bonused are negated I'm pretty sure its just the base twf penalty.

You don't enchant the shield spikes, you enchant the spiked shield. It is one item. Remember you don't add the enhancement bonus from the shield to your attack rolls with shield bashes. There are ways to do gain this bonus on attack rolls such as the bashing magic item quality and the shield master feat. That said, you can houserule it however you want.


Taking into account what Lifat and Bizbag mentioned, I think that I've been applying the wrong enhancement cap. Always willing to admit that you changed my mind! :)


Quote:
You don't enchant the shield spikes, you enchant the spiked shield. It is one item. Remember you don't add the enhancement bonus from the shield to your attack rolls with shield bashes. There are ways to do gain this bonus on attack rolls such as the bashing magic item quality and the shield master feat. That said, you can houserule it however you want.

Indeed, it is one gestalt item; hence my suggestion that you pay a premium price if you enhance it as a weapon AND a shield. The Bashing quality is an Armor enhancement that can allow you to avoid such premiums, as does the shield mastery ability.

The shield certainly can enhanced as a weapon in some manner, as it is a weapon, but the particulars can get a bit odd.


Xaratherus wrote:
Taking into account what Lifat and Bizbag mentioned, I think that I've been applying the wrong enhancement cap. Always willing to admit that you changed my mind! :)

I think your rule could be appropriate depending on the situation. My impression is that shield rules are not written with the concept that a player can dual-wield shields. A shield master could thus TWF with spiked shields at no attack penalty, with weapons that cost 50% less to enhance than weapons, while simultaneously providing a shield bonus to AC (not stacking, of course). With a simple Bashing enhancement and spikes, each shield does 2d6 damage, albeit at a 20x2 Crit range.

The only disadvantage is no access (directly) to weapon enhancement like Flaming, but that's minor considering adding another basic +1 is almost always the best choice anyway.

So that might call for some sort of house ruling.

Actually, I should make a character like this.


Something I may have missed someone mentioning is that Shield Master specifically states that the attack with the shield must be an off hand attack. Also the no penalty only applies to the shield attack not the primary weapon attack. So that makes me think that applying the enhancement bonus would only apply to one shield of a 2 shield wielder.

My PC currently is a Spell-less Ranger Shield and Dwarven Waraxe wielder. So my full attack action at level 6 would look something like Dwarven Waraxe +8/+3 & Spiked Light Quickdraw Shield +10.

If I am totally off-track please excuse the interruption.

Just my 2 cp.


silverhair2008 wrote:

Something I may have missed someone mentioning is that Shield Master specifically states that the attack with the shield must be an off hand attack. So that makes me think that applying the enhancement bonus would only apply to one shield of a 2 shield wielder.

My PC currently is a Spell-less Ranger Shield and Dwarven Waraxe wielder. So my full attack action at level 6 would look something like Dwarven Waraxe +8/+3 & Spiked Light Quickdraw Shield +10.

If I am totally off-track please excuse the interruption.

Just my 2 cp.

Ah, but it doesn't require being off-hand, just that you wield another weapon:

Quote:
You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

And it doesn't preclude a shield from being that other weapon.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
Mojorat wrote:

When we had a character with shield mastery he had armour spikes. The spikes are clearly enchanted seperately from the shield. At the time when he tried the double dipping thing I suggested he was either attacking with the spikes or the shield as far as which bonuses to use. But I'm pretty sure this isn't raw.

As far as which bonused are negated I'm pretty sure its just the base twf penalty.

You don't enchant the shield spikes, you enchant the spiked shield. It is one item. Remember you don't add the enhancement bonus from the shield to your attack rolls with shield bashes. There are ways to do gain this bonus on attack rolls such as the bashing magic item quality and the shield master feat. That said, you can houserule it however you want.

Meh that will teach me to go with my shoddy memory. The wording is clear. I wonder how I read it wrong.


Xaratherus wrote:
Taking into account what Lifat and Bizbag mentioned, I think that I've been applying the wrong enhancement cap. Always willing to admit that you changed my mind! :)

Well. I'm happy to help you make up your mind. Just as long as you remember that my reasoning was my attempt at RAI and not RAW...

I would definitely run the "attack" part of the shield completely seperate from the "defend" part of the shield. In case of special abilities like "bashing" on the "defend" part of the shield, I would say that you could apply it to the "attack" part, because otherwise the ability wouldn't function at all. I would however impose a ceiling of +10 total enhancement on the "attack" part, so if it is +10 already, then I would make you subtract an ability that was at least equal to or more in enhancement bonus, to add bashing.
An example would be:

Defend part of the shield: +5 Arrow catching, light fortification, blinding, impervious and bashing.

Attack part of the shield: +5 Bane (human), Cruel, Deadly, Dispelling and flaming....

The attack part has a total enhancement of +10, so I would not allow bashing to add to it. I would allow you to swap out one of the abilities for bashing on a round by round basis as a free action.

Again this is a description of how I would handle it. I'm pretty sure that there are parts of it that strictly speaking violates RAW.


Lifat wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
Taking into account what Lifat and Bizbag mentioned, I think that I've been applying the wrong enhancement cap. Always willing to admit that you changed my mind! :)

Well. I'm happy to help you make up your mind. Just as long as you remember that my reasoning was my attempt at RAI and not RAW...

I would definitely run the "attack" part of the shield completely seperate from the "defend" part of the shield. In case of special abilities like "bashing" on the "defend" part of the shield, I would say that you could apply it to the "attack" part, because otherwise the ability wouldn't function at all. I would however impose a ceiling of +10 total enhancement on the "attack" part, so if it is +10 already, then I would make you subtract an ability that was at least equal to or more in enhancement bonus, to add bashing.
An example would be:

Defend part of the shield: +5 Arrow catching, light fortification, blinding, impervious and bashing.

Attack part of the shield: +5 Bane (human), Cruel, Deadly, Dispelling and flaming....

The attack part has a total enhancement of +10, so I would not allow bashing to add to it. I would allow you to swap out one of the abilities for bashing on a round by round basis as a free action.

Again this is a description of how I would handle it. I'm pretty sure that there are parts of it that strictly speaking violates RAW.

Ah, see, but in the above, if you have Shield Master, the attack part doesn't need to be +5, because Shield Master gives an equivalent enhancement bonus. So you could have a +5 arrow catching, light fortification, blinding, impervious and bashing while also separately enhancing it as a +1 Bane (human), cruel, deadly, dispelling and flaming weapon. You still have +4 worth of enhancements you can apply, or leave it as is. Functionally, when you bash with it, the +1 becomes a +5 because of Shield Master.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
You don't enchant the shield spikes, you enchant the spiked shield. It is one item.

That's incorrect.

The spikes on the shield must be enchanted separately. While I can't find an example of this on a shield. There is one in the NPC Codex on spiked armor and I think this provides a definitive statement on how it will work for a shield as well:

Crime Lord with +2 Full Plate / +1 Spiked Armor:

CRIME LORD CR 18
XP 153,600
Gnome fighter 19
N Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +1
DEFENSE
AC 34, touch 18, flat-footed 29 (+11 armor, +2 deflection, +3 Dex, +2 dodge, +5 natural, +1 size)
hp 204 (19d10+95)
Fort +20, Ref +14, Will +11; +2 vs. illusions, +5 vs. fear
Defensive Abilitiesblink, bravery +5, defensive training (+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants); DR 5/—
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee+2 dwarven urgrosh +30/+30/+25/+20/+15 (1d4+12/19–20/×3), +2 dwarven urgrosh +30 (1d6+12/19–20/×3) or +2 dwarven urgrosh (two-handed) +32/32/+27/+22/+17 (1d4+14/19–20/×3) or +1 spiked armor +28/+28/+23/+18/+13 (1d4+8)
Ranged dart +27/+27/+22/+17/+12 (1d4+7)
Special Attacks +1 on attack rolls against goblinoid and reptilian humanoids, weapon training (double +4, thrown +3, close +2, hammers +1)
Gnome Spell-Like Abilities (CL 19th; concentration +20)
1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound (DC 11), prestidigitation, speak with animals
TACTICS
Before Combat The fighter drinks his potions of barkskin and bear's endurance, then activates his ring of blinking and boots of speed.
During Combat The fighter starts off with a Dazzling Display, then engages in melee, fighting less armored enemies first. He deals most of his attacks with the spear end of his weapon.
Base Statistics Without barkskin, bear's endurance, blink from his ring of blinking, and haste from his boots of speed, the fighter's statistics are AC 28, touch 17, flat-footed 24; hp 166; Fort +18, Ref +13; Defensive Abilities no blink; Speed 20 ft.; Melee+2 dwarven urgrosh +29/+24/+19/+14 (1d4+12/19–20/×3), +2 dwarven urgrosh +29 (1d6+12/19–20/×3) or +2 dwarven urgrosh (two-handed) +31/+26/+21/+16 (1d4+14/19–20/×3) or +1 spiked armor +27/+22/+17/+12 (1d4+8); Ranged dart +26/+21/+16/+11 (1d4+7); Con 16; CMB+22; CMD 38.
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 12
Base Atk +19; CMB +23; CMD 39
Feats Blind-Fight, Dazzling Display, Diehard, Disruptive, Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (dwarven urgrosh), Improved Critical (dwarven urgrosh), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Nimble Moves, Persuasive, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Spellbreaker, Step Up, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (dwarven urgrosh), Weapon Specialization (dwarven urgrosh)
Skills Bluff +19, Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (local) +13, Perception +1, Profession (gambler) +5, Sense Motive +18
Languages Common, Gnome, Sylvan
SQ armor mastery, armor training 4
Combat Gearpotion of barkskin (CL 12th), potion of bear's endurance, potions of cure serious wounds (2); Other Gear+2 full plate with +1 armor spikes, +2/+2 dwarven urgrosh, darts (10), belt of giant strength +4, boots of speed, circlet of persuasion, cloak of resistance +4, hat of disguise, ring of blinking, ring of protection +2, ruby signet ring (worth 1,000 gp), 5,075 gp
Though most criminal masterminds work behind the scenes, crime lords don't mind getting their hands dirty.

You can see in the stat line, only the +1 from the Spikes applies to the attack modifier.

RAW is clear on this:

PRD on Spiked Shield wrote:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Here is he same line on a normal shield bash

Quote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

This means that the enchantment on a shield and a shield as a weapon are wholly separate items. This means that a normal +5 Shield does not provide any bonus to attack. Why does it on the Scarred Wanderer? I'll give you one guess. Because he's got the Shield Master feat so he doesn't have to enchant it as a weapon.

It's probably pretty rare for an author to write an NPC with a normal shield enchanted as a weapon. It's not cost effective if you are going to two weapon fight and if you are going to shield bash, then you're getting Shield Master anyway.

If you want to argue that spiked armor is somehow categorically different from a spiked shield, then I'll quote you this line from the spiked armor text:

PRD on Spiked Armor wrote:
An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.

This does not answer the question of whether a shield can be +10/+10. But if could, then Shield Master might let you get +10 on your attack and that might be a bit much. The fact that even Shield Master using NPC's don't have dual enhanced weapons with more than +5 on them might speak to the answer or it might not. Don't know.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The ability to double enchant something is the main principle behind the whole concept of an Uber Shield.

An Uber Shield is a +5 Bashing Large Spike Shield, +5 Defender.

First of all, let's be clear. Shield Master is not a permanent Enhancement bonus and has no effect on the making of magic items.

Among other things: You still need to enchant the shield separately as a weapon, falling all guidelines. So, no 'Defender' Enchantment stand alone, it's got to be at least a +1 Weapon before it's a Defender.
Armor Enhancements have no effect on rules for Weapon Enhancements. Defender can only apply Weapon Enhancements to hit and AC...Shield Mastery is clearly using the Armor Enhancement, which has no effect on how the two interact.
The caps for each apply independently and the costs have no effect on one another. They aren't wondrous items stacking effects, each is completely separate.

The +5 Uber Shield can be used as a +5 weapon, AND contribute the full +5 Defender to AC, for a net +12 AC bonus with a large shield. Yes, this works. It also costs 108k to pull off, and Shield Mastery, and TWF for the off hand attack.

As for the TWF/Expertise/Defensive Fighting, it's a non-issue.

You get a penalty for TWF, Shield Mastery lets you avoid it.

You CHOOSE TO TAKE a penalty for the other purposes. IF you can't take the penalty, then you obviously don't get the benefit. It's that simple. Shield Mastery isn't going to let you avoid a penalty that you choose to take.

Seriously, this issue has come up many times before, why is it still being argued?

And yes, that means a Shield is technically the single most expensive item you can make in the game. I find that HILARIOUS.

Until, that is, I remember you could do the same with Armor and Armor Spikes. So, in the end, armor really IS more expensive then weapons.

==Aelryinth


What you're saying then, is that if you want to benefit from Power Attack at all, you have to take the penalty, even if you have a method of removing that penalty?

So the feat Furious Focus does, what, exactly?


I agree that you can enchant a shield and armor as both a weapon and an armor at the same time.


Tels wrote:

What you're saying then, is that if you want to benefit from Power Attack at all, you have to take the penalty, even if you have a method of removing that penalty?

So the feat Furious Focus does, what, exactly?

Explain how you would twohanded a shield while its strapped to your arm for it to be relevant. Look shield master is a nice feat. It let's you ignore the twf penalties and use your enhancement bonus to attack. It is not some super feat that ignores 90 other rules in the game.


Mojorat wrote:
Tels wrote:

What you're saying then, is that if you want to benefit from Power Attack at all, you have to take the penalty, even if you have a method of removing that penalty?

So the feat Furious Focus does, what, exactly?

Explain how you would twohanded a shield while its strapped to your arm for it to be relevant. Look shield master is a nice feat. It let's you ignore the twf penalties and use your enhancement bonus to attack. It is not some super feat that ignores 90 other rules in the game.

You grab your arm with the shield using your free arm, and swing your shield with your entire body, not that hard, I know I've done similar things before as a kid.

The point wasn't to two-hand a shield. The point was that Aelyrinth was saying:

Aelyrinth wrote:
You CHOOSE TO TAKE a penalty for the other purposes. IF you can't take the penalty, then you obviously don't get the benefit.

So in order to benefit from feats like Power Attack or Combat Expertise, you have to take the penalty. If you negate the penalty in some way, you don't receive the benefit.

Furious Focus allows you to negate the penalty from Power Attack on your first hit in the round. By Aelyrinth's logic, Furious Focus doesn't do anything for you, because if you negate the penalty, you don't gain the damage bonus, since you must have the attack penalty to gain the damage bonus. Period.

Shield Master allows you to negate penalties as well. So if you can't negate the penalty with Shield Master and still receive the benefit, then you can't negate the penalty with Furious Focus and still gain the benefit either.


Furious Focus is an exception to that general concept because it explicitly says that it removes the penalty for Power Attack.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Aye, and other feats specifically say that they remove the penalty for x and y to do z.

Shield Master explicitly removes the penalty for twf. It says nothing amount removing or reducing penalties that you choose to take for other effects.

As for two handing a shield, you grab it on the sides, just like Cap America does. You could grab it by the grips, too, but likely not as effective.

Furious Focus specifically removes the penalty 1/rd for power attack. Certain feats and traits reduce the penalties for Expertise and Defensive fighting. Note that they always call out what they reduce.

Flinging Shield Mastery open to ANY penalty is reading waaaaay too much into the feat.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

And yes, that means a Shield is technically the single most expensive item you can make in the game. I find that HILARIOUS.

Until, that is, I remember you could do the same with Armor and Armor Spikes. So, in the end, armor really IS more expensive then weapons.

Not even close.

A Staff of Power that’s also a +5 Holy, Bane, Flaming, Shocking, Caustic/+5 Holy, Bane, Flaming, Shocking, Caustic double weapon--and, what the heck, Impervious, Glamored and Transformative--would be nearer the top of the list.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

ah ah! You're forgetting all the +GP enhancements you can put on armor and shields to up the value.

Although the staff IS a nice angle. Technically, since a double weapon slots out to 400k max, it would also exceed...but really, a double weapon is two weapons, so it doesn't really count. It'd be like including gauntlets and helms as part of your armor, and then filling them with enhancements.

Note that the staff of power is already a +2 weapon, also! (not that 8k makes a dent in 400k, but still.)

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

It occurs to me that this might be marked with "No Response Required" because using shield master to ignore literally ALL penalties is 1.)BROKEN Cheese (as opposed to most cheese, which is just cheese) and 2.)Seems to good to be true (if it seems too good to be true, it usually is).
Still this feat is incredible without cheese-weasling it up(1/2 price weapons, so normal price weapons if you TWF with 2 shields as opposed to most TWF builds that pay 2x price, AND ignore TWF penalties).


Aelryinth wrote:

Aye, and other feats specifically say that they remove the penalty for x and y to do z.

Shield Master explicitly removes the penalty for twf. It says nothing amount removing or reducing penalties that you choose to take for other effects.

As for two handing a shield, you grab it on the sides, just like Cap America does. You could grab it by the grips, too, but likely not as effective.

Furious Focus specifically removes the penalty 1/rd for power attack. Certain feats and traits reduce the penalties for Expertise and Defensive fighting. Note that they always call out what they reduce.

Flinging Shield Mastery open to ANY penalty is reading waaaaay too much into the feat.

==Aelryinth

Please, go ahead, tell me where it 'explicitly' calls out TWF penalties only.

"Shield Master wrote:

Shield Master (Combat)

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

Oh wait, it doesn't. The fluff says 'fight with it without hindrance but doesn't mention 'but only when two-weapon fighting'. The rules simply state 'you do not suffer any penalties' and again, doesn't 'explicitly' call out TWF as the only penalty it removes.

I would like to point out, that throughout this thread, I have stated I firmly believe that the intention as to remove the TWF penalty. So, in that respect, I agree with you Aelyrinth. However, I am also the kind of person that will argue the rules, even if I don't believe in the point that I'm arguing.

Explicitly means that there is no other interpretation, however, as you can clearly see when you read the feat itself, it doesn't even come close to explicitly stating it only removes the TWF penalties. In fact, it explicitly states any penalties on attack rolls which has no ambiguity.

It doesn't negate penalties to strength, even though a penalty to strength lowers your attack roll. Not because it's a penalty to the attack roll, it's because your Strength is actually less than it was.

As written, if a 20th level character (for maximum bonus/penalty) were to be TWF (-2), Power Attacking (-6/+12), using Combat Expertise (-6/+6), Fighting Defensively (-4/+2), being Grappled (-2), Prone (-4), Shaken (-2), Sickened (-2), Dazzled (-1), Entangled (-2), and level drained for 19 levels (-19), he would be, first of all, royally screwed, and probably fighting battalion of Undead including Liches and Anti-Paladins. Second of all, he'd have a total penalty of -50, but he has a +12 to damage and +8 to AC. As long as he Shield Bashes while wielding another weapon in his other hand, he takes none of the penalties. As Written.

Would I allow some obvious cheese like the above? No, not at all. I'd let them get away with the TWF penalties, and if it was a suitably epic moment (like sacrificing himself to hold off the enemy so the party can escape) I might let him ignore some of the conditions, but he's not skimping out on the power attack, combat expertise and fighting defensively for sure.

This is why I made this thread. Because, as written, a Shield Master can negate all of the above penalties, and keep attacking at his bonus. A Shield Master that dual-wields Shiels, with the RAW interpretation, would be able to absolutely destroy campaigns.

Rangers can get Shield Master at level 6 (using the Weapon and Shield combat style), so a Ranger could totally annihilate campaigns from level 6 on. Everyone else has to wait until level 11 at the earliest.


Right, but given that we dont see 'uber shield rangers' posted all over the forums or Optimization requests, my guess is that most people havent read the feat the way you do.


Tels,

I think the phrase "while you are wielding another weapon," could reasonably interpreted to mean the penalty for TWF. Read it as:

You do not suffer the normal penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon.

They probably went with "any" because the penalties are dependent on nature of the two weapon fighting so it wouldn't make sense to name the amount of penalty.

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