I was inspired by Lord_Malkov's Meteor punch rogue. So I decided to make myself a punching Ninja, since they get in my opinion better tools to deal massive damage. (such as ki for extra attack, and greater invisibility later on)
First, let me say that you need a 20-25 point buy to make this build work at all, but trust me the end result is totally worth it.
Human Level 10 Scout Ninja/1 master of many styles monk (monk taken first)
25 point buy:
22 strength(16 prior to racial + level 4/8 + belt)
18 dex (16 prior to +2 belt)
14 con
8 int
12 wis
10 chr
20 point buy:
18 strength(16 prior to racial)
15 dex
14 con
8 intelligence
10 wis
10 chr
Feats we absolutely need
Sap adept/sap master: this ups are sneak attack so much it helps makes even single hits worth it
Improved Initiative: Going first will help ensure you can hit the flat footed opponent
Dazzling display/shatter defenses: You need the enemy to be flat footed as often as possible
Dragon style/ Dragon Ferocity: upping unarmed damage is always a good sold choice (and why not take advantage of the fact that the monk gives you a free style
Two weapon fighting/improved two weapon fighting: More attacks= more sneak attack
unarmed combat master: This combined with monk robes will make your unarmed strike worthwhile
enforcer: A free intimidate, yes please
knockout artist: not worth it right away, but later adds a significant amount of damage. Especially after sap master
weapon focus: A bonus to hit is vital (especially since my bab is starting to suffer)
Things I want but have to wait until later levels:
Elemental fists: free bonus damage, sure, why not
intimidating prowess rogue trick: only needed if I find that I'm having a hard time reaching the intimidate check
Traits:
armor expert: combined with mithril breastplate, I now have no armor check penalty at all. Considering i want to avoid getting hit, this seems good
adopted/eleven reflexes- really, with how important going first is, this seems to be a must.
The equipment in this build really helps pile on the damage.
Monk Robes: ups unarmed damage, yes please.
Brawler +2 mithril plate: +2 attack and damage, and a decent armor bonus. I'll take this every day
+2 ring of protection: basic necessity
+3 cloak of resistance: Upping my saves seems really important so yes please.
+2 amulet of mighty fists: yet another way to add in some damage. With a low attack bonus, I'm thinking this is more important then adding elemental damage.
boots of speed: an extra attack, bonus to hit, bonus AC and movement increase. Again seems to be a no-brainer
belt of physical might (strength/dex): bonus damage, bonus to hit, and necessary for improved two weapon fighting.
So how does my feat progression work?
1. improved two weapon fighting (feat), improved unarmed strike (monk), dragon style (monk bonus feat), enforcer (human)
2. 1d6 sneak
3. sap adept (feat), improved initiative (combat trick)
4. 2d6 sneak
5. dazzling display (feat), dragon ferocity (style trick)
6. 3d6 sneak
7. sap master (feat), weapon focus (weapon training)
8.4d6 sneak
9. improved two weapon fighting, offensive defense (rogue trick)
10. 5d6 sneak
11. knockout punch, unarmed combat master
AC
8 (armor) + 4 (dex) + 2 (ring)= 24 prior to offensive defense, and haste bonus. Which should skyrocket it versus a single opponent
Saves:
Reflex= 7 (rogue) + 2 (monk) + 4 (dex) + 3 (cloak)= 16
Fortitude= 3 (rogue) + 2 (monk) + 2 (con) + 3 (cloak)= 10
Will= 3 (rogue) + 2 (monk) + 1 (wis) + 3 (cloak)= 9
So how does this attack sequence look?
I charge in on the first round with an attack bonus of 18 (19 if boots activated) and swing for the fences dealing:
5d6 (sneak) + 5d6 (sap master) + 20 (sap adept) + 10 (knockout artist) + 2 (brawler armor) + 2 (amulet) + 6 (strength) + 3 (dragon ferocity) + 3 (dragon style)+ 2d6 (unarmed strike)= 88 damage on the charge + a free intimidate + 10 AC against that target
From there forward I use shatter defenses to continue pile on the damage.
In a party that hands out some combat buffs (bless, bard song, etc. the damage output increases dramatically as well).
Thoughts? ways to improve this build?
Edit: Later if people seem interested I'll look at how this build would perform at lower levels, but I feel confident it holds up ok. there's definitely areas that have significant damage spikes.
Update: I left off shatter defense, swap it where improved unarmed strike is, and I'll worry about taking it later. this makes sense anyway since my iteratives won't be highly relevant at that point anyway.
Only because of the overwhelming interest I've got some numbers for how this looks at lower levels (and level 20). :P
Level 3:
At this level, I'll probably not have many magic items (definitely can't afford an amulet of mighty fists yet). Probably have a cloak of resistance and +1 chain mail.
AC: 10 + 3 (dex) + 5 (armor)= 18
Saves:
Will: 4
Reflex: 9
fortitude: 5
Attack Bonus:
+7 on the charge, +3/+3 elsewise
Damage:
On the charge: 1d6 (ius)+ 2 (sap adept) + 4 (strength) + 1d6 (sneak attack)+ 2 (dragon style)= 15
elsewise: 1d6 (ius)+ 4 (strength) + 2(dragon style)= 9.5 assuming no sneak attack
Overall: Not the best, but passable
Level 5:
By this level i can have some decent gear. Most importantly the brawler enchant so that I get a +2 to hit and damage. this is even better then the amulet of mighty fists at this point.
AC: 10+ 3(dex) + 5 (armor)+ 1 (ring of protection)= 19
Saves:
Will: 5
Reflex: 10
fortitude: 6
Attack Bonus:
charge: 3 (bab) + 2 (brawler) + 4 (strength) + 2 (charge)= 11
elsewise: 3 (bab) + 2 (brawler) + 4 (strength) - 2 (twf)= 7/7
Damage:
On charge: 1d6 (ius) + 4 (sap adept) + 4 (strength) + 2 (dragon style) + 2 (dragon ferocity) + 2d6 (sneak attack)= 22.5
elsewise: 1d6 (ius) + 4 (sap adept) + 4 (strength) + 2 (dragon ferocity) + 2d6 (sneak attack)= 20.5 (assuming sneak attack at this point)
Level 8:
Now is where it really starts to come together. I can finally afford an amulet of mighty fists, and mithril breastplate, and a decent cloak of resistance.
AC: 10 + 3 (dex) + 7 (breastplate) + 2 (ring of protection) = 22
Saves:
Will: 6
Reflex: 12
Fortitude: 7
Attack Bonus:
Charge: 5 (bab) + 2 (brawler) + 1 (amulet) + 5 (strength) + 2 (charge)+ 1 (weapon focus)= 16
Elsewise: 5 (bab) + 2 (brawler) + 1 (amulet) + 5 (strength) - (twf)= 12/12
Damage: Here where it begins to skyrocket.
charge: 1d6 (ius) + 16 (sap adept) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (sap master) + 2 (dragon ferocity) + 2 (dragon style)= 51.5 charge
elsewise: 1d6 (ius) + 16 (sap adept) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (sap master) + 2 (dragon ferocity)= 49.5 per hit
From here the damage will continue to scale really efficiently.
level 20 the damage would on the charge would be:
2d10 (ius) + 10d6 (sneak attack) + 10d6 (sap master) + 40 (sap adept) + 20 (knockout artist) + 8 (power attack) + 8 (strength) + 4 (dragon ferocity) + 4 (dragon style) + 5 (amulet of mighty fists) + 2 (brawler)+ 5d6 (elemental fist)= 189.5
Furthermore due to offensive defense my AC versus that target will be +20 due to offensive defense.
Finally, during a full attack, I can throw out 7 attacks (2 from twf, 1 from ki, and 1 from haste, 1 itwf, 2 iteratives) on the unlikely event that each hit that's 1326.5 damage .
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Why Master of Many Styles for the monk dip? From what I can see, you only use Dragon Style, and getting sneak attack on flurry of blows would be super-ultra-amazing. Are feats really so tight that you HAVE to have Dragon Style at level 1? Catch Off-Guard could be a nice way of getting in sneak attacks, and is always fun to roleplay. Deflect Arrows or Dodge are also good ways to shore up your not-so-great defenses.
Good job on the character though! Scout sneak attack + Dragon Style is kind of terrifying.
My original reason for the monk dip was to get monks robes + combat mastery to get true monk unarmed strike damage.
I would have kept that flurry of blows (since I'd get it for free with the monk anyway), but my worry was that as I level I'd never be able to get improved twf or higher flurry of blows (only 1 level of monk). So I figured I'd trade out an ability that will eventually be irrelevant with one that would continue to be useful.
True, I could get dodge, or deflect arrows to sure up my defense, but between the sap line, dragon style line, and shatter defenses line, my feats are eaten up until the mid to high levels. After that, I figured I'd start picking up feats to shore up my saves.
Also, assuming I have a caster who can cast greater magic fang, I can use my amulet to add more ridiculous damage (mercy enchant of course).
Also I could pick up panther or snake style feats to add more ridiculousness. (since I can fuse styles anyway).
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Honestly, I'm not convinced the robe and unarmed combat mastery are worth it. It ups your damage at mid levels (when you expect achieve it) by 1d6, that's 3 points per attack, hardly impressive. Even at 20th it's an item slot and a feat for, on average, 8 points more damage.
I wonder if instead of Imp. Initiative it would be worth taking Vanishing Trick and then at 11th Invisible Blade, that adds a lot of versatility both in sneaking and attacking/avoiding attacks at the cost of some Ki and a swift action. It also allows sneak attacks against foes whom you can't intimidate as an extra bonus (and at an earlier level than shatter defences comes online).
If I recall correctly Ninja and Samurai aren't their own classes, they are technically really fancy archetypes in themselves of Rogue and Cavalier. Though I could be mistaken been awhile since I bothered to check for the official ruling.
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Alternate classes are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very close to established base classes, yet whose required alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
That last bit seems a bit cloudy to me. I can take a Cavalier, but not samurai... but nothing about Archetypes.
@ tirqMy groups of the opinion that the ninja is basically aaa detailed rogue archtype and sees no reason why it can't be combined. That said it's definitely treading on murky waters..
@ Kazaan, I'm curious if the damage lost is worth it. Your giving up 4d6 dice of sneak attack which works out to be 52 damage less per hit (4d6 sneak + 4d6 sap master + 16 sap adept + 8 knockout artist).
Granted your higher attack bonus could compensate. What does your damage at that level look like I'm really curious.
When I posted the Meteor Puncher rogue in the other thread, I though about the Ninja implications... but really, what do you get that matters?
I think Ninja is all around a better class (forgotten trick and vanishing trick + invisible blade are great) but I am not sure that you are getting anything extra from a ninja aside from Monk unarmed damage in this case.
You don't need invisibility, and sneak attacking from Invis doesn't give you Sap Master damage anyway.
Dragon Style is nice, if only for the ability to charge through terrain, I believe I took it as well via the Ninja Trick.
But the Monk Dip is totally unnecessary. IUS you can get from a ninja trick at 2, dragon style from a trick at 4. You don't need flurry, because you just pop off one charge per turn.
However, if you want to go for sustain, the build I posted had Performance Combat (plus prereqs) to get mocking dance... this is pretty amazing as a feat. It lets you move up to your speed after charging as lonng as you don't end up in base with a creature (and pass a perform check).... this lets you keep charging every turn and almost guarantees that you cant be full-attacked.
Lord Malkov, what do you mean attacking from invisibility doesn't get you Sap Master damage? If you attack from invisibility, you get sneak attack, and if you decide to do non-lethal, Sap Master kicks in.
Not quite, no. Sap Master only works if your target is flat-footed (hence the importance of the Scout Archtype). Sap Adept does work on any sneak attack, but Sap Master does not.
Invisibility means that your target is denied Dex, but this is not the same as Flat-Footed. There are only a few ways to get flat-footed, (Scout Skirmisher ability, Shatter Defenses, hitting a target that has not yet acted in combat etc.)
Attacking from stealth, sniping, hitting blind targets, attacking from invis, feinting, flanking etc. do not activate Sap Master.
If I did that I could dump the style feats.
But then I run into the problem I always do where I'm fighting an uphill battle to make dex work with little payoff. On the other hand my damage is mostly coming from my sneak attack anyway.
On another side note would dual talent be worth it. I'm essentially giving up a feat for a +2 bonus in dex or con.
When I posted the Meteor Puncher rogue in the other thread, I though about the Ninja implications... but really, what do you get that matters?
I think Ninja is all around a better class (forgotten trick and vanishing trick + invisible blade are great) but I am not sure that you are getting anything extra from a ninja aside from Monk unarmed damage in this case.
You don't need invisibility, and sneak attacking from Invis doesn't give you Sap Master damage anyway.
Dragon Style is nice, if only for the ability to charge through terrain, I believe I took it as well via the Ninja Trick.
But the Monk Dip is totally unnecessary. IUS you can get from a ninja trick at 2, dragon style from a trick at 4. You don't need flurry, because you just pop off one charge per turn.
However, if you want to go for sustain, the build I posted had Performance Combat (plus prereqs) to get mocking dance... this is pretty amazing as a feat. It lets you move up to your speed after charging as lonng as you don't end up in base with a creature (and pass a perform check).... this lets you keep charging every turn and almost guarantees that you cant be full-attacked.
The main reason I took the ninja was for the ki to make an extra attack (which is always nice), and the extra ius damage. That said, your right that I don't necessarily need the monk level. Let me see how the ends up looking since it might be for the better anyway.
EDIT: Upon trying to make it work without monk I feel like I'm having too many difficulties. Monk gives me: Stunning fist, improved unarmed strike, and a free style feat (master of many styles since I don't need/want flurry). With this build the goal is to at later levels have a shot at making multiple attacks that each hit like a ton of bricks. I just can't figure out how to make that work without the frontloaded monk feats.
What exactly do you need the Dex for anyway? I mean, if you aren't focusing on trying to get full-attacks, then you are going to be well outside of anyone else's full-attack range.
Styles can be great, but most of them are mediocre in this build. These are very small drips of damage in comparison to sneak attack, and aren't going to have much impact unless you can get to full attacks.
If you are willing to wear featherstep slippers, then difficult terrain is no longer an obstacle either.
Personally, I like taking Dragon Style because the prereqs are easy (no need for stunning fist) and it opens your feet slot for +movement. It also gives you the str bonus on one attack per round, which is all you need. I stand by the optimal choice here being he Skulking Slayer archtype in addition to Scout for this build, (d8 SA die means +1 effective dmg per die, so with KOA, and Sap A+M that is 15 damage every time your SA goes up instead of 13.)
But even without that archtype, the build is solid.
If you don't care about the Monk Unarmed damage, you can also save a ton of gold by using a Brass Knuckles (They allow you to deal lethal just like IUS but don't require it) These can be enchanted just like a regular weapon for a lot less cash than an AoMF.
Merciful is an okay enchant, but its no better than any other elemental damage enchant since you can already deal non-lethal with your fists without a feat.
But in the end, the build is predicated upon Scout, KO Artist, Sap Adept, and Sap Master... how you embellish on that basic foundation is entirely up to you. If you want to try to get full attacks, you can do that. But if you are hitting for 100 damage per attack, how often will a full-attack come up? And if it does, will you have the setup time needed, or be able to hit such a target with multiple attacks anyway?
Accuracy is my thing, I would rather feel like old reliable,
With charge, a 24 str, focus, headband of ninjitsu, and a +3 brass knuckle and brawling armor, you are getting +26 to hit on the charge at 12th. That is pretty good.
Now if you stand there next turn and use TWF you are going to get 4 attacks You will also use a +2 AoMF instead. First one wont get SA dmg but it will activate shatter defenses. So you are looking at +19 on the first swing (vs a avg AC of 26-27). If that hits you are getting +21/+16/+16 on the rest, culminating in a 50% chance to hit the last two.
So, one charge: 95% chance to deal 1x dmg so 0.95 SA + Reg Dmg.
Full Attack after the charge: 60% chance to shatter on the first hit, 24% chance that you miss the first and hit the second. 8% chance that you miss the first two and shatter on three, 4% chance that you miss three then shatter on four. 4% chance that they all miss.
Assuming that you DO shatter on the first hit, you are getting (70%,50%, 50%) and the first hit is negligible, so about 1.7 x SA + 2.7x Reg Dmg on average.
If you get the shatter of the second hit, you are down to getting 1x SA and 2x regular dmg for that full attack.
If you shatter on the third this is 0.5 x SA + 1.5 regular
And if you shatter on the fourth, you are getting 1 reg
and if they all miss, nothing.
So, lets say that your regular hit deals an average of 10 damage, and that you are 12th level, so SA dmg will be 6d6 -> 12d6+36 with feats, AKA 78 average.
So, compiling the Full-Attack you get this (60%*[(2.7)(10)+(78)(1.7)] + 24%*[(1)(78)+(2)(10)] + 8%[(0.5)(78)+(1.5)(10)] + 4%*[(10)]) = 124 dmg
The charge will average 83.6 (95 for a skulking slayer)
So, you invest two feats and a high dex and a more expensive item that takes your neck slot to get a chance to have a follow up round deals about 50% more damage.
So I just dont think its worth it, especially since this puts you in danger of being full attacked yourself and doesn't let you move. I have played a couple full-attacking rogues that require setup, and the truth is... you are better off just taking the SA from scout and moving around the battlefield. You will be lucky if the stars align more than twice a day to make you feel like TWF is actually worth it. THe only beneift I got was from a roleplaying perspective and the AoE demoralizes from Heros Display.
What exactly do you need the Dex for anyway? I mean, if you aren't focusing on trying to get full-attacks, then you are going to be well outside of anyone else's full-attack range.
Styles can be great, but most of them are mediocre in this build. These are very small drips of damage in comparison to sneak attack, and aren't going to have much impact unless you can get to full attacks.
If you are willing to wear featherstep slippers, then difficult terrain is no longer an obstacle either.
Personally, I like taking Dragon Style because the prereqs are easy (no need for stunning fist) and it opens your feet slot for +movement. It also gives you the str bonus on one attack per round, which is all you need. I stand by the optimal choice here being he Skulking Slayer archtype in addition to Scout for this build, (d8 SA die means +1 effective dmg per die, so with KOA, and Sap A+M that is 15 damage every time your SA goes up instead of 13.)
But even without that archtype, the build is solid.
If you don't care about the Monk Unarmed damage, you can also save a ton of gold by using a Brass Knuckles (They allow you to deal lethal just like IUS but don't require it) These can be enchanted just like a regular weapon for a lot less cash than an AoMF.
Merciful is an okay enchant, but its no better than any other elemental damage enchant since you can already deal non-lethal with your fists without a feat.
But in the end, the build is predicated upon Scout, KO Artist, Sap Adept, and Sap Master... how you embellish on that basic foundation is entirely up to you. If you want to try to get full attacks, you can do that. But if you are hitting for 100 damage per attack, how often will a full-attack come up? And if it does, will you have the setup time needed, or be able to hit such a target with multiple attacks anyway?
Accuracy is my thing, I would rather feel like old reliable,
With charge, a 24 str, focus, headband of ninjitsu, and a +3 brass knuckle and brawling armor, you are getting +26 to...
alot of what your saying makes sense. That being the case I'm really starting to consider dumping the unarmed strike and going with a mount. with spirited charge (assuming that it triggers the scouts charge), and leadership to pick up a decent mount, you can run around the battlefield with a larger movement, and really mess people up.
hmm... is there a way to make the lance deal bludgeoning damage?
Mounted charging wont work with Scouts charge... when you make a mounted charge, you are not charging, the mount is. (there is a FAQ on this, though I think it is headed under pounce)
So no spirited charge or lance damage for being a mounted rogue. No skulking slayer free feint on the charge either.
What you CAN do, however, is simply take a nice fat reach weapon (I like dwarven longhammer, since dwarves make great rogues and they get the Prof. For free)
Take bludgeoner, put impact on the weapon, keep a wand of enlarge handy (easy UMD check) and take the Vital Strike feats.
You don't ever have to charge in this case, you just move 10 feet and vital strike. The Hammer deals 2d6, 3d6 with impact, 4d6 with enlarge. You vital strike at level 8 for 8d6, add in the sap master line and you get 8d6 more plus 16 from sap adept. You can also thrive on power attack and furious focus for a little boost. So, level 8 rogue, dealing 62 average damage per hit before strength... not too shabby.
You can also take lunge and have up to 15ft of reach to work with. Grab combat reflexes if you like, and you can do some battlefield controlling too (though i would avoid this)
At level 12, just to compare, you will have the following feat line:
1 power attack
2 weapon training (dwarven longhammer)
3 bludgeoner
5 Sap Adept
7 Sap Master
8 Combat Trick: Vital Strike
9 Furious Focus
10 feat:steel soul
11 Devastating Strike
Say you have a 22 Strength (17 base, +2 belt of perfection, +3 levels)
and a +2 impact hammer, and a headband of ninjitsu
Attack Bonus:+20 (+9 bab, +6 str, +1 focus, +2 weapon, +2 headband)
Damage: 18d6+46 (109 avg) (3d6 weapon, 3d6 vital strike, +2 dev strike, +9 str, +9 power attack, +2 weapon, +24 sap adept, 6d6 sa, 6d6 sap master)
As a dwarf, you can actually have some decent saves, and its not a bad idea to dip 1 level into fighter at first level to grab heavy armor. You can totally do this gig in full plate, andd why not? You are a dwarven KO machine.
Of course you can also do this a few other ways (including scout/skulking slayer with charges) This is my preferred build, but it is interesting to see what an unarmed guy would do.
Same level, same strength with scout/skulking slayer half-orc
+3 knuckles, headband, brawling armor, doing the Meteor Punch build
Attack Bonus: +25 on the charge
Damage: 1d3+12d8+50 (106 avg) (1d3 fist, 6d8 SA, 6d8 sap master, +24 sap adept, +12 KO master, +2 brawling, +3 weapon, +6 str, +3 dragon style)
So, pretty close... the bonus for the Dwarf in this equation is that he can do this in heavy armor, doesn't depend on charges, attacks from reach and will deal better lethal SA damage on the whole. Give the meteor puncher power attack and he is on top here.
In addition, the dwarf hits another fat scaling point at level 15 when he qualifies for improved vital strike. Then his swing (with SA) will be a total of 25d6+56 (assuming the same stats and other gear)