New rules of my house


Homebrew and House Rules


Hello everyone.

I've recently started a new campaign and semi-designed a setting around it to match what I was going for this time around. But the bugger grew on me and suddenly I find myself wanting to expand it into other campaigns.

But doing that takes house rules, so - inspired by some of the feat and houserules threads around here - I've gone to town, giving most of the system an overhaul.

I'm going over the feats, implementing things like power attack and deadly aim into the generel combat rules as options for everyone instead of feats. Finesse i going to be a weapon quality, allowing people to use either str or dex to hit AND damage. And so on, most of these generel ideas come from the threads about terrible/redundant feats.

One of my biggest doubts is that I'm considering making meta-magic free options for spellcasters instead of feats.

Now before you all get a heart attack from this madness, I must mention that we've implemented a spell point system ala the power point system from Dreamscarred Press' psionics. So meta-magic feats would cost additional power points, with a limit on power points spent per spell equal to casting class level. I think this will help limiting the worst of it.

Would making meta-magic feats into standard spellcasting options be mad hat? And more important: why?

In addition I'm going over the item creation feats, making Craft Rod, Staff, Wand into a single feat, rolling forge ring into craft wondrous item and making brew potion and scribe scroll into a single feat, probably something like "craft single item ressource" <- obviously a working title ;)


I'll split up my ideas, not to drown you in text :)

Second, I'm considering changing the base attack bonus system.

I'm thinking about removing the penalties on the additional attacks gained from high base attack bonus, but making the extra attacks happen later. I'm thinking of making it at every 8 base attack instead of every 5.

So a character with base attack +8 would gain another attack at +8, instead of gaining one at +3. I know that this will be a huge boost to martials, but I think that they need it. Rogues have a tendency to hit on their first and maybe second attacks, while almost always missing with the third, and fighters miss on their fourth.

As the system are now, the last attack is almost always just for show, giving no benefit to he character and bugging the game down with another roll to add various modifiers to before being told that you've missed.

Is 3 attacks at +20/+20/+20 or two attacks at +15/+15 too much?


Usually, I'd be in favor of turning feats with innate penalties into combat options, and metamagic feats would be no exception... If spell casting were not so powerful already.

Giving even more versatility to casters is a step in the wrong direction, from a game balance perspective. Especially since they barely need any feats to be effective.

If I were feeling particularly generous, I'd maybe allow spontaneous casters to use Widen, Enlargen and Still spell without the feat, but even that would be pushing it. Similarly, magic item creation feats are really powerful already, there is no need to boost them even more.

You have the right idea, though. Turning things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise into combat options helps martials a great deal.

Personally I think Weapon Finesse is okay being a feat, since Dex is already a very powerful attribute, but I'd allow Dervish Dance to work with longswords, katanas, scimitars and all finesseable weapons as well.

Additionally, I house ruled that Weapon Finesse can't be used in conjuction with Power Attack, but Piranha Strike works all Finesse weapons, not just light weapons.

EDIT: For the iterative attack house rule, I once had this idea of allowing characters to give up their last iterative attack in exchange for an equal bonus to the BAB of another iterative attack, but this bonus couldn't raise that attack's BAB higher than the character's total BAB.

e.g.: A 20th level Fighter could make a full attack at +20/+15/+10/+5, +20/+20/+10 or +20/+15/+15.

This would certainly raise their DPR, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but DPR has never been the problem with martial classes, and I don't think making high-level game extra rocket tag-ish is desirable.

I never playtested this rule, though, so I have no idea how well it'd interact with other combat rules...

Hope I could help.


I mentioned spell points earlier. We're using them because we're trying to implement psionics into the game, since one of the players found them and started hyperventilating with joy.

I kinda like the psionics system from dreamscarred press, but it's almost too much. I've been reading through it again and again and I still have problems with it.

I love the Soulknife concept, always have, and the Vitalist, Psion and Psychic warrior are beautifully thought. But the Aegis seems a little redundant, I like it, but it seems like too much to make an entire class based around manifesting armor that doesn't even gain a magical bonus. And I must, with shame, admit that I have no idea what to do with the Tactician, Cryptic and Dread. These classes somehow seems overdone (cryptic), confusing (dread) or pointless (tactician), but they have some very interesting elements.

So I'm considering rolling them into the other classes. The good features of the Tactician rolled into the Psychic Warrior, the Cryptic into the Vitalist or the Psion and the Dread and Aegis into the Soulknife.

Balancing this isn't really my concern, my main issue is not making the classes that I like into confusing math-monsters.

Are the risks too great compared to the rewards?

On a side note: I'm going to reflavor psionics into magic drawn from the soul of the world instead of powers of will, making them more regular spellcasters with schools like conjuration, divination and transmutation instead of the very different flavor it has now.


Thank you for replies and considerations, to all subjects or jut one ;)


Lemmy wrote:
good stuff

The idea behind meta-magic feats become a little easier with the spell point system. Spells cost 1 point for a first level spell, 3 for a second, 5 for a third and so on. But since meta-magic abilities also costs spell points you wouldn't be able to add Quicken to a spell above 7th level, since you cannot spend more than 20 points on a spell at level 20.

I know the highest level you can quicken in the normal rules is 5th, but my group is highly coorporative, so I'm confidant that it will only be abused to the benefit of all, not to make a shiny spell-damage diva :)

I understand where you're comming from though, magic, especially at high levels, is kinda ridiculous in pathfinder :)

Edit: I'll still play around with the base attack idea, though your suggestion was quite interesting and I'll mull it over with my idea-wall to see if he likes it :)


If you are not sure how some of the psionic classes in Ultimate work, you can just state that you only use the core psionic classes. These have plenty of support with archetypes to cover nearly any role.


The Shaman wrote:
If you are not sure how some of the psionic classes in Ultimate work, you can just state that you only use the core psionic classes. These have plenty of support with archetypes to cover nearly any role.

Hm. You're right, no need to complicate matters more than they already are :-)


Rocket Surgeon wrote:

As the system are now, the last attack is almost always just for show, giving no benefit to he character and bugging the game down with another roll to add various modifiers to before being told that you've missed.

Is 3 attacks at +20/+20/+20 or two attacks at +15/+15 too much?

I agree with the perceived problem on iterative attacks.

The Trailblazer's option is also a good one IMO, both reducing the amount of attacks and simplifying the math:

at +6 BAB, a character can make a single attack at +6 or full attack at +4/+4 (basically two at -2 penalty)

This penalty drops to -1 at +11 BAB, and disappear at +15 BAB, but the number of attacks remains at 2 per round (unless you get extra attacks from TWF feats an whatnot).

I never did the math, but I've been told the DPR is about on par with Pathfinder RaW except on very specialized built.

As for your solution, I can see it getting out of hand in some cases, especially involving Power Attack and other 'volontary' penalties that don't affect the reliability of you full BAB attack much, but can jeopardize your secondary and tertiary attacks significantly. Same potential issue with some monsters with high STR, high BAB and manufactured weapons, that could become capable of making three or four reliable attacks with a significant Power Attack bonus to damage. That could get brutal!


Metamagic: Make four feats out of it

Metamagic Mastery I
Preq: none
Benefit: You get all +1 Metamagic Feats.

Metamagic Mastery II
Preq: Metamagic Mastery I
Benefit: You get all +2 Metamagic Feats.

Metamagic Mastery III
Preq: Metamagic Mastery II
Benefit: You get all +3 Metamagic Feats.

Metamagic Mastery IV
Preq: Metamagic Mastery III
Benefit: You get all +4 Metamagic Feats.

---

Martial Mastery: Gone.

Weapon Finesse: Gone.

Agile Maneuvers: Gone.

Combat Expertise: Gone. Now simple a combat option.

Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal: Gone. Replaced with Deft Maneuvers.

Power Attack: Gone. Now simply a combat option.

Improved Bull Rush, Improved Drag, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder: Gone. Replaced with Powerful Maneuvers.

Point-Blank Shot: Gone. Precise Shot replaces it as a prerequisite for further archery feats.

Deadly Aim: Gone. Now simple a combat option.

Mobility: Gone. Merged with Dodge.

Dodge: Revised. You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. This bonus increases to +4 against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened tile. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.

Two-Weapon Fighting: Gone. See BAB.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting: Gone. Merged with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: Revised. Prerequisites now Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +6. In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you can get a second or third attack with it, see BAB.

Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus: Revised. Each gives +1 attack and +1 damage, they stack and you no longer select one specific weapon, but instead a whole weapon group.

---

New Combat Feats.

Deft Maneuvers: You get Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Feint, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal.

Powerful Maneuvers: You get Improved Bull Rush, Improved Drag, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder.

Dervish Dance: Preq: Weapon Focus. You can get your Dex-Mod. for Damage instead of Str for the selected Weapon Group.

---

Magic Item Creation:

Every Class with a Magic Item Creation Feat, like 1st lvl Wizards, keeps it as a special class ability. You can only craft these specific types of items.

All Magic Item Creation Feats: Gone.

Craft Minor Magic Items: Preq: CL 3rd. You can craft magic items with a DC up to 15.

Craft Magic Items: Preq: CL 7th. You can craft magic items with a DC up to 25.

Craft Major Magic Items: Preq: CL 11rd. You can craft magic items with no maximum DC.

Craft Construct: Preq: Craft Magic Items. No further change.

---

BAB.

You get no iterative attacks. With a full round action you can make more than one attack. Each of your attacks get -5 for each additional attacks you want to make.

For example, your BAB is +3 and you want to make two attacks, your BAB would be -2/-2. For three attacks it would be -7/-7/-7. For four attacks it would be -12/-12/-12/-12.

Four attacks with this Option are the maximum.

When you are fighting with two weapons the normal difficulties apply. With TWF you can get an addional attack, which does not get the -5.

For example, your BAB is +11 and you want to make one attacks with a light weapon in each hand, your BAB would be +9/+9.

When you got GTWF you can make up to three additional attacks with your off-hand weapon. But you can't make more off-hand attacks than main-hand attacks. Three off-hand attacks with this Option are the maximum.

For example, your BAB is +20 and you want to make four main-hand weapon attacks and three off-hand weapon attacks with a light weapon in each hand, your BAB would be -2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2/-2.

Without the BAB rule these are house rules in my gaming group.


widuj wrote:
a lot of house rules

I don't follow your idea for additional attacks at all. It makes making additional attacks far, far worse than it is now, not better.

My goal is to make the additional attacks more reliable by increasing the bonus and eliminating the last, useless, attack.

What you're suggesting will ensure that everyone only makes one attack. At least until they'er sure enough on the premise of the encounter to dare that extra attack. In effect it will invalidate the martial classes even more than already, since the encounter will most likely be over before they feel able to make that extra attack.

I find your ideas for the meta-magic feats interesting, but they're not quite what I'm looking for and your wall of feat changes is basically what I'm already doing :)


Oh. Mmmh. Yes, you are right.

Then reduce it to -2.

BAB +20

1 attack -> +20 -> TWF +18/+18
2 attacks -> +18/+18 -> TWF +16/+16/+16/+16
3 attacks -> +16/+16/+16 -> TWF +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14
4 attacks -> +14/+14/+14/+14 -> TWF +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12

Yeah, looks better.


widuj wrote:

Oh. Mmmh. Yes, you are right.

Then reduce it to -2.

BAB +20

1 attack -> +20 -> TWF +18/+18
2 attacks -> +18/+18 -> TWF +16/+16/+16/+16
3 attacks -> +16/+16/+16 -> TWF +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14
4 attacks -> +14/+14/+14/+14 -> TWF +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14

Yeah, looks better.

Now this is getting interesting. I'll mull it over. Thanks :)

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