Lore Warden + Pragmatic Activator

[RainyDayNinja]

Lore Warden wrote:

All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.

Pragmatic Activator wrote:

You may use your Intelligence modifier when making Use Magic Device checks instead of your Charisma modifier.

If a trait or other affect allows a character to use their Intelligence modifier for skills that ordinarily use a different ability modifier (such as Pragmatic Activator for UMD, or Precise Treatment for Heal), does it count as an Intelligence-based skill, and therefore become a class skill if he takes a level in Lore Warden?

If so, would this also apply for something like Student of Philosophy, which allows the use of Intelligence for certain kinds of Diplomacy or Bluff checks (Diplomacy to persuade, and Bluff to lie)? Would they be considered class skills only for those specific kinds of checks?

[Alexander Augunas]

I would have to say, "No" because you're not actually changing what ability score the skill is based on, you're substituting one ability score modifier for another. The change is on your end, not the skill's end.

[williamoak]

I'd agree with alexander. Especially in the case of "student of philosophy", which specifies that it only replaces cha with int for one aspect of the skills (lying and persuasion). In a home game I could tolerate it for pragmatic activator, but it aint raw. It's you who becomes different, not the skill.

[Mergy]

Thirded. If you want both bonuses, take the Cosmopolitan feat to make it a class skill; you'll be able to get Perception at the same time.

[ohako]

Hmmm. I argue in the other direction, but, well, it might be unclear semantically.

The key words are 'instead' and '-based'.

If a trait, feat, power, whatever, lets you use a different ability to modify a d20 roll (the 'instead'), then does that roll become a <that ability>-based skill (the '-based')?

For instance

Lore Keeper, from the Lore oracle mystery wrote:

Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks.

circlet of persuasion wrote:

This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Charisma-based checks.

I say this should work. I don't think I have a good reason why, although it has to do with how I interpret the interaction between 'instead' and '-based'.

Student of Philosophy + Lore Warden is really weird. Much as it sounds even weirder, I'd say that the pieces of those skills are class skills for the Lore Warden, and they would lose the +3 when trying to use the other parts of the skills.

[Jiggy]

Hrm... This sure looks like a corner-case where there's no clear answer straight from the rules. My personal thought is that when a rule talks about a "XX-based skill", it refers to the skills as they exist on their own, outside of any particular character. However, when you're actually making the UMD check, you're making an INT-based check, as the check is something particular to that character and that moment. So things that affect INT-based checks would apply when you made that modified UMD check, while things like a circlet of persuasion would not.

At least, that's how I see it.