Goblin Squad Member
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The Deepforge Company is committed to creating the highest quality crafted works of stone and iron available in the River Kingdoms. In order to generate a vigorous discussion about the crafting systems it seemed like a good time to post some points for discussion regarding the crafting system and what we should expect (and what we all hope it to be).
Being a master of any skill should take a long time. Most people following a craft never become a master of anything. Most never try, many that do try are decent, some are good, a few become very skilled, a rare number professional, and one a small handful ever become a master. It matters not what the skill is. History shows true masters are counted on one hand, no matter the skill, all throughout time. So becoming a master of anything should be a supreme achievement only the most dedicated (and perhaps lucky) few can ever hope for.
Most people (and gamers) think mastery is for crafting only, but the same goes for gathering skills, refining skills, management skills. Personally I envisage every skill set having a mastery level that is the penultimate of that skill that over a ten year period only a select few players would ever achieve. It would make the mastery as rare as it should be, the items produced by masters as rare as expected in a world of mundane items, and the truly legendary creations, inventions, and incantations a wonder to behold.
Starting at the most basic level is the gathering and harvesting of items. Since the Deepforge Company is focusing on stone and iron, let’s back up a little and narrow our focus to the task of acquiring mined raw materials.
Many things can be mined. Since we do not yet know the complete list of raw materials that will be mined in PFO, here is a list of possible mined resources:
Ores – iron, copper, tin, mithril, adamantite, other magical ores.
Precious metals – silver, gold, platinum, other rare precious metals.
Gemstones - opal, tanzanite, topaz, zircon, citrine, peridot, lapis lazuli, jacinth, sapphire, turquoise, pearl, jade, quartz, garnet, moonstone, amethyst, tourmaline, onyx, emerald, ruby, diamond, aquamarine, coral, beryl (to name but a few).
Other minerals – salt, silica, coal, cobalt, feldspar, lead, manganese, mica, nickel, potash, pyrite, quartz, sodium carbonate, sulphur, saltpetre (potassium nitrate), zinc.
Many skills may lend themselves to better, faster, safer, and more efficient mining. It also makes sense for dedicated miners working together as a group to have higher yields through the use of better equipment, more experience, the assistance of trained animals, and if or more of the miners is an experienced mining manager his expertise would “rub off” on all the other miners working that mine and their yields would all go up together as long as they are in the same party.
Here are some of the possible skills that could be found in a possible “Mining Skill Tree”:
Apprentice Mining – The ability to swing a mining pick or pick axe. This is an entry level skill that anyone can learn, but the skill level is an absolute minimum. Only basic ores or metals may be mined at this level. Every miner must start here but this skill need only be learned once.
Journeyman Mining – A slightly more advanced mining knowledge which is only trainable after a certain amount of mining experience has been gained. Slightly more ores, metals and gemstones are mineable at this level. (Unknown at this time if experience will be determined by units mined, hours spent mining, attempts at mining whether successful or not). This skill need only be learned once.
Advanced Journeyman Mining – Most ores, metals and gemstones may be mined at this level, but extensive mining experience must be had in order to learn this skill. This skill need only be learned once. This is the highest level mining skill available to a casual miner, as higher levels of mining skill are specializations. Maximizing this skill allows a miner to mine items of quality level 100. This skill must be completed in order to qualify to learn a specialization.
Chosen Specialization Mining – Extensive mining experience must be had to learn a mining specialization. Any of the categories of ores, precious metals or gems may be chosen as a specialization, but only that category may proceed to learn the “Advanced Chosen Specialization” skill. For example, if a miner that had learned “Advanced Journeyman Mining” chose gemstones as a specialization (which Gnomes are known to favor) our Gnome friend could learn “Gemstone Mining Specialization” and advance in gemstone mining, but would have to learn “Ore Mining Specialization” to further in ore mining. Same goes for metals mining. Therefore, there are total of three basic specializations may be learned.
Advanced Chosen Specialization – This skill may only be learned as a subsequent skill to the chosen specialization as noted above after a significant amount of gemstone mining has been completed. In our example our Gnome gemstone miner could learn “Advanced Gemstone Mining” after some experience as a Gemstone Mining Specialist. This skill must be learned to advance to the “Master Gemstone Mining”.
Master Chosen Specialization – A prodigious amount of gemstone mining experience must be had for our Gnome miner to learn this skill. This skill is the prerequisite skill to know in order to advance to a specific type of gemstone mining. Maximizing this skill would allow a gemstone miner to mine gemstones of level 200 quality. To begin to mine gemstones of a higher quality level the specific gemstone specialization must be learned as noted below.
Specific Type Specialization – This skill is the beginning of the final tier of specialization. In our example of a Gnomish gemstone miner, he is trying to obtain the rarest of the rare of rubies in the known world for wizard to enchant for a powerful artifact. In order to advance our friend must learn “Ruby Mining Specialization”. This skill level allows the mining of rubies of quality level 201 through (approximately) 240. This skill is a prerequisite to learn “Advanced Ruby Mining Specialization”.
Advanced Specific Type Specialization – We have almost reached the maximum skill of ruby mining here. Learning this skill allows our miner to mine rubies of quality level 241 through (approximately) level 280. This skill is a prerequisite to learn “Advanced Ruby Mining Specialization”. The rubies mined at this level are extremely fine and are sought after by jewelers, enchanters and crafters all over Golarion. These gemstones are among the finest ever seen.
Master Specific Type Specialization – The final tier of ruby mining is “Master Ruby Mining Specialization”. Rubies mined at this skill level may yield rubies of quality level 281 through 300, the ultimate gemstone. Only at the 300 level can rubies be used to create artifacts or hold the most powerful enchantments from the most powerful and masterful enchanters in the world. These rubies are clearly the best, and may have naturally have some magical properties due to their natural brilliance and purity. Their very creation may have been caused from a momentous magical event in distant past, thereby endowing the gemstone with its inherent properties.
This skill system appears to mesh well with the stated quality levels mentioned in previous crafting blogs, and would provide a skill system that would gradually advance our miner through the increasingly demanding requirements of mining gemstones (or any other minable ore or metal). Other crafting leveling systems would follow a similar pattern, but only the most dedicated few miners would ever reach the ultimate skill level required for such a find!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Other skills related to the mining skill that would “professionalize” a miner could include, but not be limited to:
Mining Efficiency – Trainable by a single miner, this skill would increase the output of that miner, and that miner only. Increasing levels of the skill increase the miner’s output accordingly.
Mining Foreman – A skill that would allow a miner to lead a party mining and his expertise in mining would increase the output of all the miners in his party as long as they were all working in the same mine. Increasing levels of the skill increase the number of miners that could benefit from the Forman’s “Mining Foreman” skill.
Mining Operations – This skill decreases the cycle time of every miner in the same mining and mining operation. The higher the skill level the faster the cycle time of each miner in the operation.
Animal Handling – Underground – A skill that allows the handling of pack mules or draft horses in underground environments. Usable for expeditions to any underground environment including caves, dungeons, underground cities, tunnels and mines. Without this skill all transport must be performed by the miners without the aid of animals or animal-drawn carts, wagons or sleds.
Mining Management – Managing a large scale mining operation requires oversight of the entire operation, the site, the personnel, and the safeguarding of the mined inventory. This skill is required for a company to oversee a Mining Point of Interest. Note that there are many different types of “Points of Interest” possible throughout the River Kingdoms, and the operational management of any Point of Interest must be managed by a member of a company with the appropriate management skill. For example, Inn Management to run an inn, Sawmill Management to run a sawmill, etc.
Creature Mining - This skill allows a miner to extract a mineable resource from the remains of a creature such as a golem, elemental, piercer, or any other creature that may have either an actual mineral or metal as part of its body, or a significant build-up of a mineral deposit within its body (to help with digestion, or an afflicted creature). This skill may have different levels of expertise if it is determined creatures have increasingly difficult extractions necessary.
Mining Focus - Imagine you are a miner that has entered a dangerous underground cavern of dungeon in order to mine a unique node of ore in a heavily defender area. As your party fights the defenders you see the desired node ahead. As you close on it the battle rages around you. Can you mine uninterrupted while swords flash and bodies crash to the ground at you feet? If you have this skill, the answer is Yes! "Mining Focus" allows a miner to concentrate on completing the specific mining task at hand and provides the miner the ability to ignore most interruptions to the mining effort. Granted, an outright attack would interrupt the process, but having this skill greatly increases of completing the desired mining task on the first try.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did you read this *thought so!* in the latest blog:
When you find a harvest node, your ranks in the related Profession skill determine if you can access it at all. For example, you only need one rank in Miner to harvest iron, but you need fourteen ranks to harvest adamantine. The speed at which you harvest the resource is based on your skill total; you won't ever spend more than a few seconds per item at a harvest node, but reducing that time might still be a big help if you're worried about attacks.
You have one item slot on your character for a harvesting tool (you can thread this tool if you want to). This is your standard pick for mining, axe for logging, and so on. You don't need the tool to harvest, but it adds dramatically to your effective skill total, letting you harvest even faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did not read it beforehand. But it is a welcome insight to see where gathering and harvesting in the River Kingdoms is headed. Little enough information in it though as to leave me (and others) unsatisfied. Looking for more "meat of the bone" as we Dwarves like to say.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For a true level 300 item (if they choose to keep that mechanic in place), a number of master crafters will have to be involved in the crafting chain, which will make genuine 300 level items rare indeed, if not unique.
I can see four or five individual master craftsmen having to perform precision work on the same item, or make many attempts to create part of the final item, for example, a crown fit for a king or queen. The gemstone miner, the gemcutter, the gold miner, the goldsmith, and perhaps the tailor or leatherworker that completes the fitting. That would be an achievement fit (for a king or queen)!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the specializations, but here is a question. Is the gnomish miner restricted to a simple path of progression past Advanced Jouneyman Mining, or is he free to pursue as many masteries as his time will allow?
I really have no idea how this system will play out once it is implemented, but in this example, the gemstone miner could pursue as many more advanced "Gemstone Mining Mastery" skills as they wanted to invest time in. But the large time investment is one of the things that would make the Master level skill so rare.
I think crafting has gotten overlooked as a pastime to keep players busy, or to entertain players who enjoy crafting with simple puzzles (a la GW2 whose crafting system was absolutely ridiculous and utterly useless). Instead I hope to see a vigorous and robust crafting system all the way up the chain, from the gathering and harvesting to the Master level of final assembly. And there won't be many players who want to spend the 18-30 months needed to achieve ultimate mastery (those times are my estimate of how long it should take...not a clue what they really have in mind).,
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really have no idea how this system will play out once it is implemented, but in this example, the gemstone miner could pursue as many more advanced "Gemstone Mining Mastery" skill as they wanted to invest time in. But the large investment is one of the things that would make the Master level skill so rare.
Sounds like a great system. +1 to the ideas in this thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt it would take 30 months to reach the top of a particular tree, as the devs have said in the past they're aiming for a wide and shallow skill tree system (doesn't take a lot of time to reach the top of a skill tree, but there're a lot of trees).
I think one way to ensure that not a whole lot of people have a specific mastery is already built into your system: making the materials available for crafting at each level more and more specific as you advance. Out of 10,000 people, how many are going to be miners? How many of those will be gem miners, requiring them to spend a significant amount of training into mining? How many of those will put in enough training to become an emerald specialist, with all the other specializations available? And how many of those will be at max level emerald specialization?
Even if the times are drastically less than what you have in mind, I think mastery of a particular specialization will still be a rare thing if you add in a sufficient number of choices, and most of those choices are well balanced against one another. Maybe not "a few people over the course of 10 years" rare, but rare enough that it's a very special achievement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they stick to the current 100, 200, 300 quality system I would hope gathering/harvesting a quality level 300 resource would be pretty darn rare, especially if there is a mastery for each gemstone type (sure, it could be categorized a bit to reduce the possibly total number...and that'd be fine). I have not seen the "wide and shallow" comment...if that is accurate they are missing out on a huge opportunity to have a unique crafting system with dedicated specialists. That would be a sad missed opportunity, too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Recommend mastery should have a gating event that I would call an 'R&D' skill, the ability to try to combine resources and processes that are unusual but having a chance to produce an advance in the technology of that craft.
When the crafting skills are being designed the very top tier of product or skill should be something initially unavailable, unlockable except by some exceptional feat.
Further, a 'top tier' should be teachable...for a price... but only once a new rung in the tech level has been designed and implemented as a potential new unlock for a new 'master' who has learned the preceding mastery. This means that the devs would design but not reveal openly a series of rungs in the mastery tiers.
and yes, Being a master should be exceedingly rare. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, after re-reading some of the older blog posts, it seems like the only measure they gave for an approximation on reaching capstone abilities was indeed 2-and-a-half years, so I suppose your 30 months idea was spot on.
In the blog post "What to Expect from Early Access Beta", it is said "We will have a very flat and wide skill system, and more skill time allows for more player flexibility in roles and actions you can take in the game. You will never nerf your overall combat ability by having a few extra skills on the side, you just have the ability to do more things." Granted this is a nearly year old post, but there they wrote that they want characters to have a broad range of skills, with more skill time adding a wider range of activities instead of always adding more to your specialization. I believe the comment is made toward combat abilities though, so I understand their ideas for crafting could be totally different.
In short, it seems I'd done more half-remembering of something from a while back, something which may or may not apply to this situation. I'd say we haven't really heard any specifics on how gathering/crafting skills are going to be laid out, so you may still have hope in the extremely-hard-to-earn mastery levels of crafting.