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Hi everyone. It's my first tread here, so I'm a little bit nervous, but I have been stalking many debates and house ruling discussions since last month and I think I am now ready to show some of my own work.
First, English isn't my mother tongue, so don't feel bad to correct me or ask if you don't understand some parts.
Actually, my main preoccupation is the rogue. Rogues are an iconic class in a lot of RPG, but Pathfinder haven't been nice with them. I perceive rogues like smart fighting little bastards, with a lot of supporting potential trough their skill versatility. Rogue must also be able to sneak attack and kill people, but i think we can look for more versatility in their combat style than desperately trying to flank in melee.
The problem with the actual rogue is that any «roguish» bard, inquisitor, ranger or alchemist is a better rogue than the rogue. I have even read something about a roguish summoner that outshine the rogue through is skilled eidolon. I don't think that these class are overpowered, it's the rogue that is problematic.
With this fix, my objectives are to boost the rogue in combat versatility, defensive potential, skill, mobility and savour. My rogue may look a lot stronger, but after the bards, inquisitors and alchemists i have seen, i don't feel it is too much. I have added a ki pool like class feature, skill mastery, bonus mobility and defensive feat and better rogue talents. I also allowed the rogue to add sneak attack damage on confirmed critical hit (criticals are so sad with standard rogue). This fix is intended to boost the rogue, not the other class that grab rogue abilities or multiclassed characters. So, the new rogue talents should not be hallowed to the archaeologist bard or any other class archetype that gain access to rogue talent.
Through some new rogue talents, i also wanted to make viable some rogue themed combat style. For instance, the dagger throwing rogue, the crossbowman, the fist fighting thug, etc. The rogue talent list is far for final and i might add, modify or suppress stuff according to the community reaction.
I want to thanks the pathfinder community for all the ideas that have inspired me in this class fix. I have take a lot of thing from other's rogue fix and i want to thank all of these skilled homebrewers for their contribution.
Now, my rogue fix :
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Wealth: 4d6 × 10 gp (average 140 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less.
Class Skills
The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
BAB : 3/4
Saves : Good Reflex
Table: Rogue
1st Sneak attack +1d6, deadly critical, trapfinding
2nd Evasion, rogue talent, guile
3rd Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
4th Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th Sneak attack +3d6, skill mastery
6th Rogue talent, nimble move
7th Sneak attack +4d6, trap sense +2
8th Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th Sneak attack +5d6, skill mastery
10th Improved evasion, rogue talent
11th Sneak attack +6d6, trap sense +3
12th Rogue talent, cartwheel dodge
13th Sneak attack +7d6, skill mastery
14th Rogue talent, defensive combat training
15th Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +4
16th Rogue talent, freedom of movement
17th Sneak attack +9d6, skill mastery
18th Rogue talent, ambusher
19th Sneak attack +10d6, trap sense +5
20th Master strike, rogue talent
Class Features
The following are class features of the rogue.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Deadly Critical (Ex)
Starting at 1st level a Rogue gains the ability to add his sneak attack dice on a critical hit. When a rogue confirms a critical hit, he can add his sneak attack dices gained from rogue’s levels (and only rogue’s levels) to his damage roll. These extra dice are in addition to any sneak attack dice a rogue is eligible for, such as from flanking or the target being flat-footed. However, deadly critical bonus damage doesn’t count as a sneak attack for the purpose of sneak attack related rogue talents.
Trapfinding
A rogue adds 1/2 his level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Guile (Ex)
At 2nd level, a rogue gains a pool of guile. In game term, guile is a fluctuating measure of a rogue’s luck and inner reserve of determination. The number of points in the rogue’s guile pool is equal to 1/2 his rogue level + his Charisma or Intelligence modifier (the choice cannot be reversed). As long as he has at least 1 point in his guile pool, a rogue gains the benefits of the Improved Feint feat, and is treated as having this feat to meet the prerequisites of any other feat.
By spending 1 guile point, a rogue can made one additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but he can do so only when making full-attack action. In addition, a rogue can expend 1 point of guile to increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a rogue can expend 1 point of guile to perform a steal maneuver as part of a sneak attack (this does not provoke an attack of opportunity). Each of these powers is activated as a swift action.
Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Rogue Talents
As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains rogue talents. He gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.
(See Rogue Talents, at the end of this document)
Trap Sense (Ex)
At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 7th level, to +3 when he reaches 11th level, to +4 when he reaches 15th level, and to +5 at 19th level.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against him.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Skill Mastery (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a rogue begins to refines his already excellent skill training, being more efficient and reliable on specific field of speciality. At 5th level, a rogue gains a Skill Focus feat tied to a rogue’s class skill. In addition, he may take 10 in this check at any time, even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.
At 9th level, 13th level and 17th level, a rogue gains may select new skill masteries in addition to the one gained at 5th level.
Nimble Move (Ex)
At 6th level, a rogue gains Nimble Move as a bonus feat.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Cartwheel Dodge (Ex)
At 12th level, a rogue gains Cartwheel Dodge as a bonus feat.
Defensive Combat Training (Ex)
At 14th level, a rogue gains Defensive Combat Training as a bonus feat.
Freedom of Movement (Su)
At 16th level, a rogue gains the constant effect of freedom of movement as a supernatural ability, with a caster level equal to his rogue’s level.
Ambusher (Ex)
At 18th level, a rogue increases his sneak attack damage dice by 1 size against targets that are unaware of his presence or don’t perceive him as an enemy (d6 turns to d8, d8 to d10 and so on).
Master Strike (Ex)
Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, he can choose one of the following three effects:
The target can be...
• put to sleep for 1d4 hours
• paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
• slain
Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike effect for 24 hours. In addition, at any time he deal sneak attack damage, the rogue can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed for 1 minute. This is a pain effect. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to these abilites.
Rogue Talents
Acrobatic Dodge (Ex): A rogue with this talent can evade deadly attack by tumbling out of danger. As an immediate action when the rogue would normally be hit with a melee or ranged attack roll, he may make an Acrobatics check to avoid being hit. The DC for this check is equal to the attack roll that hits him. The rogue gains a free 5 foot step as part of this Acrobatics check, and must take it. If he can’t take this 5 foots step, he can’t use this talent. The movement doesn’t does not provoke an attack of opportunity and doesn’t count in the rogue movement for this round.
A rogue may only use this talent when he has an armor check penalty of 0, is carrying no more than a light load, and is not wielding a two handed weapon or shield. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Dexterity modifier. A rogue must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent.
Acrobatic Master (Ex): A rogue with this talent may move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.
Finally, a rogue with this talent may roll two dices while making an Acrobatics check and take the best result. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Dexterity modifier. He must choose to use this talent before making the check.
Amateur Boltslinger (Ex): When selecting this talent, a rogue gains a number of grit point equal to his Wisdom modifier and all the boltslinger’s 1st level deeds. He also gains the marksmen boltslinger’s ability.
Assault Leader (Ex): As an immediate action when the rogue misses with an attack on a flanked opponent, he can designate a single ally who is also flanking the target that his attack missed. That ally can make a single melee attack against the opponent as an immediate action. Using this ability costs 1 point of guile. The rogue must be at least 6th level to select this ability.
Blade Twist (Ex): When a rogue with this talent lands an attack against a target using a piercing or slashing weapon, he may twist his blade as a free action, rending the target and dealing additional damage as per the Two-Weapon Rend feat. This ability can only be used once per round. Unlike the feat, the rogue doesn’t need to be dual-wielding to benefit from this ability. If he has the Weapon Finesse feat and is wielding a light or one-handed finesse weapon, the rogue may use his Dexterity for purposes of calculating damage form this talent. A rogue must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A rogue with this talent can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the rogue’s sneak attack. Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleed damage bypasses any DR the creature might possess.
Bloody Mess* (Ex): When a rogue with this talent deals sneak attack damage to a target that is already bleeding from the effects of the bleeding attack talent, the target's bleed damage increases by 2 points per round, to a maximum of his rogue's level. The Heal check needed to end this bleed effect has its DC increased by the amount of bleed damage the target is taking each round. A rogue must have the bleeding attack talent and be a least 10th level before selecting this ability.
Cat fall (Ex): When a rogue with this talent falls 20 or more feet, he ignores the first 20 feet of the fall when calculating the falling damage. If the rogue takes no damage from the fall, he does not fall prone.
Charmer (Su and Ex): As a standard action, a rogue with this ability may charm a target within 30 feet for 1 minutes per rogue level he has attained. This ability functions as charm person, with a Will save DC equal to 10 + ½ the rogue’s level + the rogue Charisma modifier. Each use of this ability expends 1 point of guile.
Additionally, a rogue with this talent may roll two dice while making a Diplomacy check and take the best result. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier. He must choose to use this talent before making the check.
Crippling Strike* (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that his blows weaken and hamper their limbs. When a rogue with this talent strikes an opponent with a sneak attack, he also inflicts 2 points of Strength damage and prevents him to take 5 foot step until the beginning of the rogue’s next turn. A rogue must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Cunning (Ex): When wearing light or no armor, a rogue with this talent adds up to 1 point of his Intelligence modifier to his Armor Class and CMD for each rogue’s level he has attained. He loses this bonus if flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity modifier. This talent doesn’t stack with the canny defense duelist’s ability.
Death Attack (Ex): If a rogue with this talent studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (rogue's choice). Studying the victim is a standard action. The death attack fails if the target detects the rogue or recognizes the rogue as an enemy (although the attack might still be a sneak attack if the target is denied his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class or is flanked). If the victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's class level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier against the death effect, it dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, it is paralysed for a number of rounds equal to the rogue's level. If the victim's saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the rogue has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. A rogue must be at least 8th level before selecting this talent.
Dirty Fighting (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat and counts his rogue level as his base attack bonus to determine dirty tricks combat manoeuver checks.
Dirty Fighting, Improved (Ex): A rogue with this talent can expend 1 point of guile as a swift action to perform a dirty trick maneuver as part of a sneak attack. In addition, he may choose to remove sneak attack bonus damage to improve his combat manoeuver check by 1 for each sneak attack dice removed. A rogue must be at least 6th level and must have the dirty fighting rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Esoteric Scholar (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains all Knowledge and Spellcraft as class skills.
Expert Tumbler (Ex): When a rogue with this talent uses Acrobatics to move at full speed through a threatened area without provoking an attack of opportunity, the DC of the Acrobatics check does not increase by 10.
Explosive bombs (Su): A rogue with this talent can create explosive bombs, as per the alchemist ability. For the purpose of damage, reflex DC and bomb related discoveries, rogue and alchemist’s level stacks. A rogue can also add his Intelligence modifier to the damage of any splash weapon he is using, including bombs, as per the throw anything alchemist’s ability. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Intelligence modifier.
Eyes of Darkness (Su): A rogue with this talent learns how to improve his sense through his connection to shadows. As a standard action and at the cost of 1 guile point, the rogue gains darkvision out to a range of 60 feet for 10 minutes by rogue’s level. If he already has darkvision, he improves its range by 30 feet. At 10th, whenever the rogue uses this talent, he gains the see in darkness ability, as the universal monster rule. A rogue must have the shadow magic rogue’s talent before selecting this talent.
Fast Finger (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of combat manoeuver check when attempting to steal an opponent possession. The rogue must have one hand free to use this ability.
Additionally, a rogue with this talent may roll two dice while making Sleight of Hand check and take the best result. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Dexterity modifier. A rogue can’t use this talent to reroll Sleight of Hand check used to attempt a combat manoeuver.
Fast Stealth (Ex): A rogue with this talent can move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty and halves stealth penalties while running.
Finesse Rogue (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains Weapon Finesse and Agile Manoeuver as bonus feats.
Fist Fighting (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains the benefit of Improved Two Weapon Fighting when using unarmed strikes. In addition, his unarmed strikes deal 1d6 point of damage. Finally, a rogue with this talent may count brass knuckles attacks as unarmed for the purpose of rogue talents and feats. A rogue must have the sucker punch rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Fist Fighting, Improved (Ex): When using unarmed strikes as part of a full-attack, a rogue with this talent doesn’t take any two weapon fighting penalties to unarmed attacks. Additionally, his unarmed strikes used as off-hand weapon always add his full strength modifier to damage rolls. A rogue must have the fist fighting rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Hard to Fool (Ex): If a rogue with this talent is affected by an illusion spell or effect and fails his saving throw, he can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC, with a +2 insight bonus. He gets only this one extra chance to succeed on his saving throw.
Additionally, a rogue with this talent may roll two dice while making a Sense Motive check and take the better result. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Wisdom modifier. He must choose to use this talent before making the check.
Hidden Weapons (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight as a swift action, even while he is being observed. Additionally, a rogue with this talent may draw concealed weapons as a move action instead of a standard action (or as a free action if the rogue has the Quick Draw feat).
Keen Intellect (Ex): Some rogues are trained to use their wits and cunning to defend themself against mental and sensorial attacks. A rogue with this talent may use his Intelligence modifier instead of his Wisdom modifier on Will saving throws against mind-affecting effects and against spells and effect of the enchantment and illusion schools.
Lucky One (Ex): A rogue with this talent can, as a swift action and at the cost of one guile point, gain a +2 luck bonus to attack rolls, AC, saves or skill checks until the beginning of his next round.
Manoeuver training (Ex): A rogue with this talent may select Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal, Passing Trick or Two Weapon Feint. He must meet most the prerequisite for these feats, except for Combat Expertise, Dodge or Mobility feats.
Maneuver Training, Greater (Ex): A rogue with this talent may select of one the following feat as a bonus feat: Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Reposition, Greater Steal, or Greater Trip. In order to select one of these feats, the rogue must have the equivalent improved maneuver feat. A rogue must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent.
Master of Deception (Su and Ex): Some rogue learns how to detect and deceive divination magic, either by projecting false toughs in their own mind or webbing lies into illusion like effects. A rogue with this talent is aware of divination effects landed upon him and may try to fool the information provided by such means. When targeted by divination spells and effects that affect him or any object in his possession, the rogue may roll a Bluff check opposed to the diviner Sense Motive check, as using Bluff to deceive someone, to alter what the caster perceives. Success means that the diviner perceives the false information’s provided by the rogue.
Additionally, a rogue with this talent may roll two dice while making a Bluff check and take the best result. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier. He must choose to use this talent before making the check.
Nut Kick (Ex): A rogue with this talent can cause a flat-footed opponent he hit with an unarmed strike to be nauseated for 1 round. This ability doesn’t work against creature immune to critical hit. This is a pain effect. A rogue must have the sucker punch rogue talent and be at least 8th level before selecting this talent.
Offensive Defense* (Ex): When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to his Armor Class for each sneak attack dice rolled for one round. This talent doesn’t stack with himself.
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, a rogue with this talent can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck in melee by one of his ally. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round. A rogue must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Poison Bomb (Ex): A rogue may infuse a smoke bomb with a dose of any inhaled poison he possesses. This poison affects any creatures that start their round in the smoke and last as long as the smoke. A poison bomb doesn’t cause splash damage. The rogue must have the smoke bomb rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Poison Resistance (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +2 bonus on saving throws made against poison. At 4th level, this bonus increases to +4. At 6th level, this bonus increases to +6. At 8th level, this bonus increases to +8. At 10th level, the rogue becomes immune to the effects of poison.
Quick Footwork (Ex): As a swift action, the rogue may spend 1 point of guile to take a 5-foot step, even if he has already moved or taken a 5-foot step this turn. Using this ability does not prevent the rogue from taking a move action later in the turn. Otherwise, this movement follows all the normal rules for a 5-foot step.
Quiet Death (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent kills a creature using his death attack during a surprise round, he can also make a Stealth check as a swift action, opposed by Perception checks of those in the vicinity, to prevent them from identifying him as the assailant. If successful, those nearby don’t even notice that the target is dead until the end of the rogue’s next round, allowing the rogue to avoid detection. A rogue must have selected the Death Attack talent and be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Range Dupery (Ex): A rogue with this talent may use the feint action at a range of 30 feet. In addition, if using daggers or throwing darts, he may add his Charisma modifier to ranged attack rolls against the opponent he has feinted in addition to his Dexterity modifier.
Redirect Attack (Ex): When a rogue with this talent is hit with a melee attack, he can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the rogue, and the creature that made the attack against the rogue must make a new attack roll against the new target. A rogue can use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Wisdom modifier.
Redirect Attack, Improved (Ex): When a rogue with this talent uses his redirect attack talent, he can add his sneak attack dice to the damage his enemy deals. A rogue must have selected the Redirect talent and be at least 6th level before selecting this talent
.
Rogue Crawl (Ex): A rogue with this talent can move at half speed while prone and reduces the armor class penalties for being prone to -2 against melee attackers.
Secretive (Su): A rogue with this talent has gained magical assistance in protecting himself from divinations, perhaps through a self-taught ritual or a pact with otherworldly beings. He gains spell resistance 10 + his rogue’s level against any spells or effects of the divination school. This applies whenever a divination effect would provide information about him, even if the spell is not normally subject to spell resistance (such as the divination spell or contact other plane). Additionally, the DC of all Diplomacy checks made to gather information about this rogue and the DC of all Survival checks to track him increase by his rogue level.
Sixth Sense (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, he receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM. In addition, the rogue may ad his Wisdom modifier as an insight bonus on Initiative checks.
Finally, a rogue with this talent may reroll while making an Initiative check and take the better result. A rogue may use this talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Wisdom modifier.
Smoke Bomb (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to throw a special bomb that creates a cloud of smoke with a 15-foot radius in addition to the normal explosion. This acts like the smoke from a smokestick. The rogue can choose to supress the explosion effect at the time he throws the bomb. The rogue must have the explosive bombs rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Stand Up (Ex): A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. He may make an Acrobatics check to avoid the attack of opportunity this provokes with a bonus to the roll equal to 1/2 his rogue level. The DC of this check is equal to his opponent's CMD.
Stealthy Sniper (Ex): A rogue with this talent reduces the stealth penalty to sniping by 10 and increases his sneak attack maximum range by 10 feet.
Sucker Punch (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. Once per encounter, if he uses unarmed strike against an opponent, the target is caught flat-footed against this attack.
Toxicologist (Ex): A rogue with this talent may add his Intelligence modifier to the save DC of any poison he creates. However, he must add this number to the DC needed to create this poison. The rogue must be at least 8th level before selecting this talent.
Trapfinding (Ex): This functions as the rogue class ability of the same name. Selecting this talent allows rogues with an archetype that trades it out access to this rogue ability.
Underhanded* (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if he makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that his opponent didn’t know about, he doesn't have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier.
Unseen’s Master (Su): Whenever a rogue with this talent uses his shadow magic talent, he is treated as if he were under the effects of greater invisibility. The rogue must have the shadow magic talent and be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Shadow Magic (Su): A rogue with this talent has started to learn the mysterious rogue art of shadow magic. As a swift action, a rogue with this talent can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability cost 1 point of guile.
Venom Blade (Ex): A rogue with this talent can apply poison to a weapon as a move action, instead of a standard action. In addition, any poison the rogue creates is sticky – when the rogue applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the rogue’s Intelligence modifier (minimum 2). The rogue must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent.
Vicious Ambush (Ex): The rogue has learned to attack from surprise with astonishing speed, catching his targets unawares. A rogue with this talent can take full-round actions during surprise round.
In addition, when performing a full attack action against a target that would be denied its Dexterity bonus against the rogue's first attack, the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against one additional attack. Activating this ability is a swift action that costs 1 point of guile. A rogue must be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Volley of Needles (Ex): A rogue with this talent can expend 1 point of guile as a standard action to launch a volley of throwing darts in a 20 feet cone. He must roll an attack independently for any target within this area. Targets takes damage as if hit by a dart thrown normally. Volley of needles ignores targets concealment or miss chances provided by spells such mirror image. A rogue can’t add sneak attack damages against flat-footed opponents when using this talent, but he still can add sneak attack damages on a successful critical hit. Critical fumble on an attack roll doesn’t prevent the rest of the darts to hit their targets. This ability is considered a ranged attack with a thrown weapon for the purpose of feat and attack of opportunity.
Volley of Needles, Improved (Ex): A rogue with this talent can launch additional darts when using volley of needles. The rogue may launch two darts by target at his full attack bonus instead of one. Additionally, the rogue’s critical modifier for throwing dart becomes 19-20/x2. The rogue must be at least 8th level and must have the volley of needles rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Volley of Needles, Accurate (Ex): A rogue with this talent increases the range of volley of needle to 30 feet and can avoid a number of allies equal to his Intelligence modifier. The rogue must be at least 6th level and must have the volley of needles rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Volley of Needles, Greater (Ex): A rogue with this talent can launch three darts by target when using the volley of needle rogue talent. In addition, if a target is hit by at least 2 darts, he is staggered for 1 round. This is a pain effect. A rogue must be at least 10th level and must have the improved volley of needles rogue talent before selecting this talent.
Volley of Needles, Targeted (Ex): A rogue with this talent can concentrate his volley of needle against a specific opponent. Doing so, he can reduce the number of dart thrown at all other targets within the cone (minimum 1) and add this total to the dart thrown at his designated opponent. A rogue must have the improved volley of needles rogue talent and be at least 10th level before selecting this talent.
Weapon Snatcher (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent. A rogue must have one hand free to use this talent.
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ok,
i like that you haven't modified the base statistics. although having only a single save (with no spells) can be pretty upsetting, i think that so long as a class makes up for lack of defenses in it's offensive potential, that it's ok. which, you seem to do here.
if you were to modify base statistics, would you consider martial weapons and having all skills be class skills? this was something i am strongly considering for my own revision. if not, why?
Deadly Critical:
i like that you are a allowing an additional venue for the rogue to use their sneak attack ability. it is strange that precision damage doesn't multiply on a critical (read: precise) hit. sneak attack has lot of potential and i think there ought to be more class features that interact with it.
Trapfinding:
i have always been a fan of having the Perception bonus apply to all Perception checks. not only for ease of bookkeeping, which is one argument, but again, so that the class feature helps to interact with sneak attack (higher general Perception = acting in more surprise rounds = more sneak attack dice). besides, an 'ambush' is a 'trap'.
Guile:
again, i like the interaction with sneak attack (improved feint). but, although the ninja gains an extra attack, which is well suited to it, i think the rogue, who cannot Vanish, would be better off with a boost to their attack roll rather than multiple attacks. i actually really like your 'free steal' move, however, i think it might make a better strike talent (rogue talent with an asterisk) than a 'pool ability' because the concept, though cool, is a little narrow (not all rogues are thieves). the speed boost seems a little copy/paste from the monk/ninja, but that is not necessarily a bad thing, because rogues need speed/mobility. also, i am curious what you think of my 'rogue pool'. finally, 'guile' as a name has been spoken for in the Rogue Glory book, so you might consider a rename.
Trap Sense:
why +5 over 3/7/11/15/19? an oversight or an intentional change from +6 over 3/6/9/12/15/18?
more later...
A lot of people have toyed with the idea of using a "rogue pool" of some sort. I'm not sure when "Rogue Glory" was published, but I came up with the name "Guile" for my pool way back in 2011. Whatever you call it, it's a pool mechanic.
That said, I like a lot of what I'm seeing (I can even spot some of my own touches, haha). The rogue definitely needs some love; this, like many other attempts, fixes many of the issues with the class. I wouldn't mind playing a rogue by these rules. I especially like the variety of options for different kinds of rogues--from bruisers to dandies.
Trap Sense:
why +5 over 3/7/11/15/19? an oversight or an intentional change from +6 over 3/6/9/12/15/18?
If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably because that's how I did it, and I favor symmetry with other classes (fighters and their "Bravery" ability, namely). Also, fits well with the progression when you add in extra class abilities (like "Skill Mastery" or the various movement-related abilities).
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so yeah, some ideas:
Mug* (new strike talent):
Whenever a rogue with this talent deals sneak attack damage to a foe, if she has at least one free hand, she may attempt a steal combat maneuver as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Improved Mug* (new advanced strike talent):
When you use your mug strike talent to attempt a steal combat maneuver, you may roll your Sleight of Hand skill in place of your CMB.
also, to interact with either my proposal or your 'all rogues are thieves' pool, we gotta measure the mark:
Appraise (new skill use):
You may identify the most valuable item on your opponent's person with a DC equal to 20 + your opponents HD. For every 5 by which you exceed the DC, you identify an additional item of high value upon your foe. If the item is not in plain view, you must also succeed on a Perception check against the same DC. If your opponent is purposely concealing the item, both DCs becomes 20 + your opponent's Sleight of Hand skill bonus.
The +5 to trap sense is intentional. Its purely for the symmetry of the class and, like Detect Magic said, to balance with the extra class ability.
The guile pool could be renamed Wits or something that refer to Cunning. I intend it to be an opening to Rogue/Ninja class feature (see rogue talents in the bottom of my first post) or strictly used to increase offensive potential and mobility.
About the steal manoeuver. I don't see it like a thief move, but more like a dirty fighting move.
- Hi mister wizard ! Sorry for the sneak attack...oh, is it your spell component pouch i my hand ?
Also, this is free, so you can use it...or ignore it if your build is more thug like. I gived it cause steal manoeuver open a window to some awesome moves, but is most of the time too weak or circumstantial to deserve a feat.
About trapfinding : i agree with your point rainzax, but i tried to keep my rogue fix compatible with the official paizo archetypes (which most of the time swap trapfinding). How could i boost trapfinding without making the classic archetypes underpowered ?
I want to ear you all about the rogue talents. My main defensive openings and reworks are there.
Intelligence to will save against enchantment, illusion and mind-affecting effects, Canny defence like ability, extra mobility, ranged feint.
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Kelazan,
Trap Sense - a minor quip, but in close-aligning it with the Fighter's Bravery, you fall out of alignment with the Barbarian's Trap Sense (and if you also switch over the Barbarian, you create a 'hole' at 9th level in her class table...)
compatibility - you have already modified the class beyond what paizo would consider adopting, fully into the realm of 'homebrew', so the line seems arbitrary now to draw, and besides what's to stop you from tweaking some of the archetypes (you might have to as you have changed Trap Sense, which is also frequently switched out, and granted a few new 'dodge' abilities, whereas some archetypes switch out the uncanny dodges...)
talents:
Blade Twist - i like this talent! i would make the 1d10+1.5x rend damage bypass DR, as not only is the damage modest, but you have indeed 'bypassed' your foe's plates/scales/ribs already, to give the ability a little special corner-case usage, not to mention style.
Cat fall - why do you stop at 20 feet?
Finesse Rogue - nice way to settle the 'weapon finesse as feat tax' problem without shoehorning investment in Dexterity (by giving out WF for free at 1st level, for example). i am going to steal this idea.
Fist Fighting - this line seems problematic. first, in that it is redundant (sucker punch already grants IUS). second i like the title 'fisticuffs'. third, maybe this talent could be re-imagined provide synergy with a rogue/monk multiclass?
Hard to Fool - nice synthesis lol
Hidden Weapons - i would just grant Quickdraw, allow swift draw of hidden weapons, and allow plain-sight palming.
Keen Intellect - seems a bit weak. maybe Wis and Int to save? or maybe the bonus covers all Will saving throws?... not both though.
Maneuver Training - i would just let the rogue bypass all prerequisites (like monk bonus feats), the restriction being you can only select this talent once. also, a name change here for the monk already has 'maneuver training'
Master of Deception - super cool
Nut Kick - ought this be a 'strike talent' (with an asterisk)?
Quick Footwork - cool
Range Dupery - don't like the title, and the +Cha is overkill imo
Redirect Attack, Improved - lol nice
Rogue Crawl - what about the '5-foot-crawl'?
Sixth Sense - nice expansion of Trap Spotter
Stealthy Sniper - nice
Sucker Punch - nice
Venom Blade - nice. i would go 'minimum 1 round' though
Volley of Needles - though a cool concept tree, but what are the implications for ammunition? not that i think the ability needs to 'cost' darts (similar to the halfling feat Well-Prepared), but if it doesn't, it at least needs to explain why it doesn't.
hope that helps a little
I like your ideas Rainzax, i have adjusted some talents according to your comments.
Rogue's talent revised :
Cat fall (Ex): When a rogue with this talent falls 20 or more feet, he ignores the first 20 feet of the fall when calculating the falling damage. The falling distance ignored augments to another 10 feet every five levels the rogue have attained, to a maximum of 60 feet at 20th level. In addition, the rogue never fall prone after falling.
Fisticuffs (Ex): A rogue with this talent gains the benefit of Improved Two Weapon Fighting when using unarmed strikes. In addition, his unarmed strikes deal 1d6 point of damage. Finally, a rogue with this talent may count brass knuckles attacks as unarmed for the purpose of rogue talents and feats. A rogue must have the sucker punch rogue talent before selecting this talent. A muticlassed rogue with this talent may add his rogue’s level to his effective monk’s level to determine monk’s unarmed strike damage. (Nice name idea by the way ^^)
Hidden Weapons (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight as a swift action, even while he is being observed. Additionally, a rogue with this talent gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat and may draw a concealed weapon as a swift action.
Keen Intellect (Ex): Some rogues are trained to use their wits and cunning to defend themselves against mental and sensorial attacks. A rogue with this talent may use his Intelligence modifier in addition to his Wisdom modifier on Will saving throws against mind-affecting effects and against spells and effect of the illusion school.
Smart Fighting (Ex): A rogue with this talent may select Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal, Passing Trick or Two Weapon Feint as a bonus feat. He don't need to fulfil the prerequisites of these feat. This rogue talent can me selected multiple times.
Smart Fighting, improved (Ex): A rogue with this talent may select one of the following feat as a bonus feat: Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Reposition, Greater Steal, or Greater Trip. In order to select one of these feats, the rogue must have the equivalent improved maneuver feat. A rogue must be at least 6th level before selecting this talent. This rogue talent can be selected multiple times.
Nut Kick* (Ex): A rogue with this talent can cause a flat-footed opponent he hit with an unarmed strike to be nauseated for 1 round. This ability doesn’t work against creature immune to critical hit. This is a pain effect. A rogue must have the sucker punch rogue talent and be at least 8th level before selecting this talent.
Distant Dupery (Ex): A rogue with this talent may use the feint action at a range of 30 feet. In addition, if using daggers or throwing darts, he may add his Charisma modifier to ranged attack rolls against the opponent he has feinted in addition to his Dexterity modifier.
Volley of Needles (Ex): A rogue with this talent can expend 1 point of guile as a standard action to launch a volley of throwing darts in a 20 feet cone. He must roll an attack independently for any target within this area. Targets takes damage as if hit by a dart thrown normally. Volley of needles ignores targets concealment or miss chances provided by spells such mirror image. A rogue can’t add sneak attack damages against flat-footed opponents when using this talent, but he still can add sneak attack damages on a successful critical hit. Critical fumble on an attack roll doesn’t prevent the rest of the darts to hit their targets. Volley of needles expend 5 throwing darts + 1 by attack rolled using this ability. This ability is considered a ranged attack with a thrown weapon for the purpose of feat and attack of opportunity.
I didn't touched rogue crawl. Having a 15 feet speed (half 30 feet) gives the ability to take 5 foots step. So, yes, you can do emergency crawling/crouching mini jump to move swiftly around an opponent.
About the former Range Dupery, now Distant Dupery. I don't think that Charisma to attack roll is over the top. The rogue must spend a move action to feint, so no full-attack until Two Weapon fighting + Two weapon feint. Then, he stills use under-powered weapons at close range, and sacrifice one of his best attacks to have the chance to try to feint his opponent.
Having a little boost to hit when using daggers and dart don't seem overpowered to me and it is mostly intended to soften the two weapon fighting penalties and the reduced number of attack. It gives a edge to the iconic dagger thrower rogue (a build that is unfortunately worst than anything normally). This his the only opening to ranged sneak attack that don't involve sniping or being invisible, i want it to be viable.
I could use me rogue talent ideas, but i am also worried about multiclassing. I always try to balance my homebrews to avoid the broken 2 level dips that kill the game. I used level requirement on many rogue talents to avoid the terrible case of a barbarian 8, rogue 2 that picks extra rogue talents in place of normal feats. However, i could have missed something, and this is why i am here asking your assistance ^^
Oh, and i forgot to answer this :
if you were to modify base statistics, would you consider martial weapons and having all skills be class skills? this was something i am strongly considering for my own revision. if not, why?
I'am not into the all class skills idea, mainly because i consider character backgrounds to be the root of class skill list. The rogue default class skill should still the same according to me, but with openings (such the Esoteric Scholar rogue talent) and maybe some archetypes to swap some skills with some other, more flavourful. On a personal base, i also gives «skill traits» to my players to customize their class list.
However, some extra specific weapon proficiency, maybe even exotic ones like for the ninja (but no eastern weapons), could be nice. Any suggestion ?
Skill Mastery ad on (inspired by rainzax's Skill Execution) here
At 9th level, a rogue gains more confidence when dwelling in his field of speciality. After having rolled a skill check in one of his skill mastery, the rogue may choose to take 10 instead of the result. This is a free action. A rogue can use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum once). He gains another use of this ability at 13th level and again at 17th level.
As said in the linked tread, a retroactive take 10 on skill checks his overpowered as an at-will power, but restricted to a small number of time per day and as a late entry, it allow the rogue to try his Bluff against that powerful NPC and hope a high roll, but to avoid total failure if he rolls 3 on a d20.
I hesitate between this mechanic or a more straight forward take 20 limited by the same per day value.
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Oh, and i forgot to answer this :
if you were to modify base statistics, would you consider martial weapons and having all skills be class skills? this was something i am strongly considering for my own revision. if not, why?I'am not into the all class skills idea, mainly because i consider character backgrounds to be the root of class skill list. The rogue default class skill should still the same according to me, but with openings (such the Esoteric Scholar rogue talent) and maybe some archetypes to swap some skills with some other, more flavourful. On a personal base, i also gives «skill traits» to my players to customize their class list.
missing from rogue's otherwise complete list are: Fly, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge, Ride, Spellcraft, and Survival. i can think of several rogue concepts that would excel at these skills. straight from the rogue:
Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, rogues bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, , shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, and , and and all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck. Although many rogues favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace lives on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues.
"Agile Acrobat" - Fly
"Bandit"/"Explorer"/"Bounty Hunter" - Handle Animal, Ride, Survival"Investigator" - Heal, Knowledge, Spellcraft
so i figure why not just grant them all? think of it like this: the monk, the other spell-less 3/4-BAB class, gets all good saving throws (because wacky defenses are part of his 'thing') whereby every other class has at least one bad save. so why not give the rogue all skills as class skills as their 'thing'?
You can't take ranks in Fly without a permanent/daily flight speed.