UNC Presents Concept of Meaningful RP-PVP


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Goblin Squad Member

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Doggan wrote:
Simple rule of thumb if you've just been RPKed: You had stuff, the RPK wanted it and was able to overpower you and take it.

We notice repeatedly in Darkfall that folks kill us and then walk away, not bothering to even look at our graves; sometimes, indeed, they do look and then don't take. I'm sure they don't consider their player-killings random, except in the "we didn't plan to meet in the wilderness" sense, but those killings're obviously not "stuff"-related.

They're also not related to territory-control, as the Goblin Squad doesn't hold any, nor to territory-defence, as we've had several deaths nowhere near encroaching on someone's home. Most of those deaths are inflicted on resource-gatherers by players who aren't interested in the materials we've gathered, nor the resource-site itself.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:


Ooh Ooh, guess what that means??? Anyone? Anyone?

Hint: Means you werent RPKed.

I dare someone to give an example of real RPK, bet you cant.

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

Goblin Squad Member

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Xeen wrote:
Doggan wrote:


Simple rule of thumb if you've just been RPKed: You had stuff, the RPK wanted it and was able to overpower you and take it. That's it. That's a reason right there. Is that toxic? Nope. It's harsh. Get RPKed enough and you'll learn to travel through safer areas, or in groups, or learn how to fight. Adapt or die.

Ooh Ooh, guess what that means??? Anyone? Anyone?

Hint: Means you werent RPKed.

I dare someone to give an example of real RPK, bet you cant.

I'm riding down a road between two settlements. I've used this road many times before safely, and I'm carrying nothing of value. I ride past 2 strangers with no interaction between us. As I pass the third stranger, he turns and kills me.

From my perspective, that is 100% random. I don't know why I was targeted, I don't know what I could have done differently to make myself not a target.
This happens frequently in Darkfall. It makes the game toxic, and it makes me not want to bother playing.

If I could make choices that would significantly effect the chances of me being attacked, then it becomes an enjoyable game. Some examples would be "I can take the road through Seventh Veil territory, which is longer but safer, or I can try a shortcut past Golgotha, but I better carry some toll/bribe money with me." or "I can set up a caravan and hire some guards to take all my iron ore to market in one trip, or I can try to smuggle it past one backpack at a time and make many trips."
Those choices aren't possible in Darkfall.

Your only choices are don't play at all, or only travel in a group, which just leads to an arms race of everyone traveling in bigger and bigger groups. This is toxic.

This is why Poker is a televised sport on ESPN and Roulette isn't, letting uncontrollable random factors significantly influence the outcome of similar actions is simply poor game design.

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
RPKing is not griefing, according to Ryan Dancey. Ganking is not considered greifing according to almost anyone who understands the term. Calling these things toxic, is in itself "toxic" because it tainst a game that would otherwise have greater appeal than what you have given it credit for.
If RPKing can be defined as "The person I just attacked has no idea why I did it", then it absolutely is toxic to the community and the game.
Simple rule of thumb if you've just been RPKed: You had stuff, the RPK wanted it and was able to overpower you and take it. That's it. That's a reason right there. Is that toxic? Nope. It's harsh. Get RPKed enough and you'll learn to travel through safer areas, or in groups, or learn how to fight. Adapt or die.

I have posted this elsewhere, but I will again as it is relevant.

If I have goods you want that are worth the reputation hit to you, then by all means try to kill me and take it. This is acceptable. I may not be happy with it, but that is the risk I take playing this game and I understand that.

If you are looking for someone to kill just to get your jollies killing them, then that is what I view as a problem. Especially if you go looking for these jollies by focusing on unflagged or obviously inferior opponents and purposefully try to avoid anyone who might actually present a challenge.

I hate the term RPK. The problem is very rarely players killing other players at random. The problematic population is the group that kills anyone they perceive as weaker for the sheer purpose of frustrating and angering said weaker elements (or otherwise intending to cause grief). These same killers will flee or move shop if actually confronted with an actual challenge. They often have little interest in the challenge of battle. The loot gained barely interests them, if it does at all. Their joy is in the tears of others. And that is the problem.

And please note that just killing weaker players by itself is not RPK/Griefing either. If weaker players are hauling rare resources, then stronger players may very well have enough incentive to take those resources one way (SAD) or another (sticking a dagger in your back).

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:

I'm riding down a road between two settlements. I've used this road many times before safely, and I'm carrying nothing of value. I ride past 2 strangers with no interaction between us. As I pass the third stranger, he turns and kills me.

From my perspective, that is 100% random. I don't know why I was targeted, I don't know what I could have done differently to make myself not a target.

Why were you on his road?

Did he just kill you and leave your stuff?

How are those choices not possible in Darkfall? I though TEO and friends are running off the "bad guys"?

Are you telling me that you cannot avoid a fight? There is no way in Darkfall to avoid a fight?

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Xeen wrote:


Ooh Ooh, guess what that means??? Anyone? Anyone?

Hint: Means you werent RPKed.

I dare someone to give an example of real RPK, bet you cant.

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

LOL

Goblin Squad Member

I lost 3 ships last night in Eve.

A falcon was destroyed by 15 Smartbombing Rokh's off a low sec gate... I could have avoided it if I flew right, but I just went gate to gate. My ship blew up, my wreck blew up, so they got nothing.It wasnt random, they were killing everyone that warped gate to gate.

The second one was with an alt in faction warfare. Its war so no biggy.

The third was in low sec, a non faction war pilot was jumped right off the gate. They had me webbed in superior ships. I fought but knew I was going to die. It wasnt random, they were pirating.

No crying, no rage quiting, just move on and go out again.

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:


Simple rule of thumb if you've just been RPKed: You had stuff, the RPK wanted it and was able to overpower you and take it. That's it. That's a reason right there.

Then its not random. The motive was personal gain. Run of the mill, boring murder. Holmes wouldn't even have Watson investigate that case. Any law-abiding settlement will deal with it as it would any murder charge.

Try this for random. Roll a d20. Whatever number comes up, kill that person in the order you encounter them. You get a 7, its the seventh person you pass by. It could be in a city, in the wilderness. They could be 10 levels below you or 10 levels behind you. They could be alone or with 30 comrades. Loot nothing and move on. Rinse, repeat.

@ Bluddwolf - I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that the Rovagug reference was just to get a charge out of the other PFOers. I would have had more interest in your argument had it been true. But you've made two mistakes. One - you've based your argument partly on a falsehood. By doing so you've called into question the validity and motivations behind the rest of your argument. How can I tell what you really want? Should I supply my own suspicions in place of your facts?
And second, (and possibly more egregious) you've made us aware of this falsehood. I would never have given away information like that so freely. As someone who has played CN and CE characters in the past, poorly executed.

Hopefully there will be improvement next time around! :)

Goblin Squad Member

RPK is necessarily a misnomer. Nothing a human being does is truly random. This is, I believe, why GW is differentiating at the point of 'meaningful' rather than 'random'. What GW intends by 'meaningful' has been described as arbitrary and capricious.

I would argue that even 'accidents' are not random.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:

I lost 3 ships last night in Eve.

A falcon was destroyed by 15 Smartbombing Rokh's off a low sec gate... I could have avoided it if I flew right, but I just went gate to gate. My ship blew up, my wreck blew up, so they got nothing.It wasnt random, they were killing everyone that warped gate to gate.

The second one was with an alt in faction warfare. Its war so no biggy.

The third was in low sec, a non faction war pilot was jumped right off the gate. They had me webbed in superior ships. I fought but knew I was going to die. It wasnt random, they were pirating.

No crying, no rage quiting, just move on and go out again.

Hmmm did you get pipebombed by RnK? sounds like their antics (ofcourse ppl will have copied it!)

Meah I lose ships all the time, no need to go cry, rage over it. But dying is part of a PvP game and it will happen. Even in PFO there will be dying wether you like it or not.

This discussion is getting old esp about people not wanting to lose their stuff...

here is a hint... don't use/fly what you cannot afford to lose or replace right away.

Use that as a golden rule and I am sure there will be less rage...

(ps. there are people losing ships worth of 60b isk and replace them without blinking...)

more at 11!

Goblin Squad Member

No, it wasnt RnK, forget who it was... but have seen alot of it lately.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

damn pipe bombing copy cats :D

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:

I'm riding down a road between two settlements. I've used this road many times before safely, and I'm carrying nothing of value. I ride past 2 strangers with no interaction between us. As I pass the third stranger, he turns and kills me.

From my perspective, that is 100% random. I don't know why I was targeted, I don't know what I could have done differently to make myself not a target.

This happens frequently in Darkfall. It makes the game toxic, and it makes me not want to bother playing.

If I could make choices that would significantly effect the chances of me being attacked, then it becomes an enjoyable game. Some examples would be "I can take the road through Seventh Veil territory, which is longer but safer, or I can try a shortcut past Golgotha, but I better carry some toll/bribe money with me." or "I can set up a caravan and hire some guards to take all my iron ore to market in one trip, or I can try to smuggle it past one backpack at a time and make many trips."
Those choices aren't possible in Darkfall.

Your only choices are don't play at all, or only travel in a group, which just leads to an arms race of everyone traveling in bigger and bigger groups. This is toxic.

From your perspective it is random, but that does not mean it was random. Your ignorance of the attacker's motives is your short coming, not his. You are not entitled to know someone else's motives, unless they choose to reveal them to you. To label their activity "Random" or worse, "Toxic", because you do not know is passing judgement blindly.

Last night my group came across a lone adventurer, grinding Gnolls in the danger zone. We sneaked in on him from two directions. It of course turned out that he had like 50k more points then we did, almost combined.

He killed every one of us, although we did get him to half health. He then inspected us and then revived us. We immediately saluted him for his prowess and he wished us luck in our hunt.

On another occasion the roles were reversed. We came upon a lone gatherer, we ganked him. We established that he was alone and had little of value to loot. WE revived him, and sent him on his way. Once he realized we were not hunting him down again, he shouted back in Global a "Thanks".

The whole time last night, I monitored global chat. 90% of it was a guy spamming to sell his small treasure maps. Mind you, it is not easy to pay attention to Global Chat, over playing the game and focusing on Clan Chat.

I think the use of the terms "Random" and "Toxic" have amounted to crying wolf. For every one instance of true griefing or abuse you can point to, I can point to a thousand examples of "meaningful PVP interaction."

Doggan wrote:


Simple rule of thumb if you've just been RPKed: You had stuff, the RPK wanted it and was able to overpower you and take it. That's it. That's a reason right there. Is that toxic? Nope. It's harsh. Get RPKed enough and you'll learn to travel through safer areas, or in groups, or learn how to fight. Adapt or die.
Nihimon" wrote:
I don't believe that's the dynamic Goblinworks is hoping for in Pathfinder Online.

They certainly have not expressed that it is not the dynamic they are aiming for. Look at their mocking response to the idea of traveling solo. Read the Dev Blog "The Most Dangerous Game". They have frequently said for us to find player solutions to PVP risks.

Just take for example the new Feud mechanic that is proposed. They have in the past said that warfare would be limited to settlements. That has changed, and now companies can initiate feuds (mini wars). They have also proposed the idea of Faction Warfare, and the removal of consequences once you reach a certain level with your faction.

I think some of you (Nihimon and others) have blinders on when it comes to the trend of more PVP, not less. The Devs are adding the "Meaningful" to the reasons to engage in PVP, and not as much to the consequences of participating in it.

I don't believe that's the dynamic that you are hoping for, but it appears it is where GW is going. I believe (IMHO) that is a move in the right direction, and it may have been their direction all along anyway.

Goblin Squad Member

Pipebombing is why I do most of my lowsec travelling via wormholes :)

That being said, all falcons should be pipebombed. Repetedly. With prejudice.

RPK is an awful term because what may appear random to one person may not be random to another. I prefer WPWTPK (Wrong Place Wrong Time Player Kill). Granted, it's not as succinct, but it's infinitely more appropriate . I've been WPWT'd many a time myself. It pretty much covers the situation in all of my lossmails.

Goblin Squad Member

Jazzlvraz wrote:

We notice repeatedly in Darkfall that folks kill us and then walk away, not bothering to even look at our graves; sometimes, indeed, they do look and then don't take. I'm sure they don't consider their player-killings random, except in the "we didn't plan to meet in the wilderness" sense, but those killings're obviously not "stuff"-related.

They're also not related to territory-control, as the Goblin Squad doesn't hold any, nor to territory-defence, as we've had several deaths nowhere near encroaching on someone's home. Most of those deaths are inflicted on resource-gatherers by players who aren't interested in the materials we've gathered, nor the resource-site itself.

From my wanderings in Darkfall, I think that we're just brushing the surface of the interaction/motivation.

Let's say you see someone weak and unarmored, running along. Is he just clearing tiles for that explorer feat, or is he running a treasure map? Only one way to tell if he's got a map worth 1000s of gold :shoot: :shoot: :stab: :gank: :check for map: .

Let's say you find someone harvesting. He might have found some essences - only one way to find out. And so on. Everyone in darkfall might have something worth killing them for, and there's one way to find out if they do. Or maybe the killer's just doing some pvp feat. Or he like that harvest spot and wants to convince you to never come back. I'm sure some people are just jerks, but there's a lot of other motivations for murder in darkfall.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Xeen wrote:


Ooh Ooh, guess what that means??? Anyone? Anyone?

Hint: Means you werent RPKed.

I dare someone to give an example of real RPK, bet you cant.

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

You know...Bluddwolf does kind of remind me of Vizzini, especially with this latest stated doctrine. Inconceivable!

Digital Products Assistant

Removed some posts. Please leave hostility/personal insults out of the conversation.

Goblin Squad Member

Congrats Xeen. You lost PvP ships, while out hunting for PvP. From what we have been told about PFO safezones will be small and spread out in comparison to EVE high sec. There won't be a viable live in high sec option like there is in EVE.

Goblinworks want's all the players to inhabit the same space, and build a virtual community.

That community is not supposed to operate like EVE null sec where whenever anyone who's not an ally enters system, if you are in a mining/ratting ship you warp back to the POS as fast as you can, and either ride it out or grab a PvP ship and kill them. In null sec people live in little bubbles of territory controlled by their alliance, and better not cross the lines of those bubbles unless you have been given permission, or you are there to kill and destroy.

Here is the vision I have, and that I believe the comments I hear coming from the developers and most of the community... what most of us want:

People will come into the game, learn the basics in the safezones, and then immediately move out into the rest of the world. While they are out there they can move freely about and 90%+ of the clan owned hexes will be open to them. Out in the greater world they can trade, adventure, and explore. On a moderately frequent basis they may be set upon by bandits, who will demand a portion of their goods giving them the option to hand them over or resist, and possibly die. If they join a group that is warring or feuding with another group, then they can expect members of that group to target them out with extreme prejudice. On very rare occasions, someone may just kill them for the hell of it.

If they are particularly bloodthirsty they can tag up as bandits, champions, assassins, or other PvP centric roles. These roles will draw PvP to themselves simply by existing. They can also join a group who frequently declares and is the target of wars so they can take the fight to their group's enemies.

So everyone lives in a world where PvP is always a minor possibility, but they can increase this possibility from minor to major by putting on the appropriate flags and joining the right groups if desired. Keeping in mind I do desire it, and will be flying the appropriate flags and probably belong to a sub-company of TEO that focuses on feuds with griefer/RPK groups. I'm more concerned with what the community I take part in will be like, then with how safe my personal gaming experience is.

I realize you probably hate this vision / view it as carebearism. That's great. I hate your vision too, and view it as toxic. Even the majority of EVE players spend most of their time in high sec to avoid it. Just realize, this is what I want, this is what I will fight to get. Both literally and figuratively.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:


Doggan wrote:
Simple rule of thumb if you've just been RPKed: You had stuff, the RPK wanted it and was able to overpower you and take it. That's it. That's a reason right there. Is that toxic? Nope. It's harsh. Get RPKed enough and you'll learn to travel through safer areas, or in groups, or learn how to fight. Adapt or die.
I don't believe that's the dynamic Goblinworks is hoping for in Pathfinder Online.

It doesn't much matter if that's the dynamic they're going for. That's the dynamic that's going to exist. Unless they remove the ability to RPK, in which case they've just taken away the fact that they're a player based sandbox game.

Look, RPKing is going to happen. Whether people want your stuff or not. It's going to happen. Hell, I'm going to end up killing people just because they were in my way at the time. But I'm okay with taking the fallout from that. I'm okay with taking that 'villain' role in the game. I don't much care if I'm branded as a murderer or whatever else. I did it in UO and I'll do it in PFO. Does that mean that I'm going to grief people? No. I won't track down a person I just killed to kill them again (well, I might, in super special circumstances) I'll just move on with my day and whatever I was doing.

But I won't be anywhere near the worst. The game will have griefers. It's unavoidable. There will probably be RPKers that put me to shame, and kill everything in sight. The only way to avoid this is to make the game consensual only PvP. Which would be a joke.

I'll admit that griefers (meaning the people who are constantly corpse camping, and spewing chat garbage) will be toxic to the game. Those types are unavoidable, and I'm sure GW will do their best to remove them. But I will never agree that the murderers of the game, the RPKers, I'll never agree that they're toxic. It's part of the danger of having an open world PvP game. And those RPKers are putting themselves at risk too. They have to watch out for the Dudley Do Rights of the game, and also travel smart or in packs.

Accept the risks that are going to be a part of a game like this. You might die. Almost anywhere. No matter who you are. Learn to enjoy it. Let it keep you on your toes. Make it exciting. You'll have more fun in the end.

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:
But I'm okay with taking the fallout from that.

I believe the expectation is that a lot of folks won't be...

Goblin Squad Member

Then they dont have to do it, but they need to expect it.

Goblin Squad Member

Doggan wrote:
It doesn't much matter if that's the dynamic they're going for. That's the dynamic that's going to exist. Unless they remove the ability to RPK, in which case they've just taken away the fact that they're a player based sandbox game.

What they're going to do is rather than removing the ability, every time you kill without a mechanical justification (You were at war, they refused a SAD, they had a flag on, etc.) you take a reputation hit.

There will be enough leeway that most of the time you can kill people who need to be killed without dropping to low reputation.

But if you are going around constantly killing "for the lulz" or for really weak justifications, your reputation is going to bottom out. Not because the game can tell those justifications are weak, but because it can tell you are killing unflagged players way more often than anyone with solid reasons would be.

At that point, your character will suck. Your character will be so weak that it isn't competitive and the developers are actually hoping you will just give up and leave the game.

This isn't just me shooting my mouth off. Anyone non-bias reader familiar with the vision for the reputation mechanic will agree with me.

So will there be RPKing? Yes, of course there will. Will it be allowed to run rampant to the point it generates the toxic atmosphere found in other Open World PVP games? No, it will not. That's the difference between existing titles and PFO. Consequences. Not banhammer 100% effective consequences but not "Let's not even try" consequences either.

Goblin Squad Member

How can you not be competitive when the power curve is nearly flat?

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
How can you not be competitive when the power curve is nearly flat?

It's clear that you're asking how they can make PKers non-competitive when the power curve is nearly flat.

What we want to do is create a feedback loop where the more you do that, the harder it becomes to do it again, and eventually it becomes so hard that the PKer abandons the tactic.

If that feedback loop operates swiftly enough then the average PK ganker who is just in it for the lulz won't get enough positive reinforcement to do it at all and the problem stops before it starts.

There's no one tactic that makes that happen. It has to be a layered approach.

Our layers are:

...

I highly recommend reading the whole post in order to get a strong sense of their strategy for dealing with "the problem", even if some of the specifics have changed, and will continue to change.

Goblin Squad Member

Um... Your quoted part... that is focused on NAKED PVP.

The rest that discusses the power curve (the little that does)... LOL, remember when he said that CE will be the a%&*$~!s? and will have weaker settlements?

Maybe you missed the next two days of damage control the actual Devs had to perform, reassuring the "other" players that they will in fact not be weaker, just different.

So, we have a flat power curve... CE will have access to plenty of training, including the high end training if there is a settlement.... The only thing in question is whether that settlement will allow lower rep players... then done.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, alignment and reputation creep... Log off for a bit, play another character or something else, come back to a pool of skill points and high enough reputation and/or alignment to skill up, and go out again. (or you can just grind your rep up)

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
Xeen wrote:

How can you not be competitive when the power curve is nearly flat?

Nearly is a long cry from completely, and the extents of which, may vary widely

6.......................................------------
5.....................-----------------^
4......--------------^
3.....^
2..--^
1-^

A nearly flat power curve, but notice there's a huge jump between the first 4 lines and the first set (lets say 1-3 months in) and the power curve ov grades 4 and up. Going from 4 to 6 is a much longer power curve, with a much less significant difference (IE say 6 months to 1 year),

IE someone 4 months in has a rough shot against someone 8 months in, but someone 2 weeks in, is 1/4th the power of someone at that 4 threshold.

Yes yes, you got it... but missed something... they never said you cannot train, just "maybe" not the high end stuff... So you train 1-3 over and over. Grind up some rep and get the high end, then start over.

Trust me, it will not matter

Goblin Squad Member

The flat power curve is from high rep newb to high rep vet. It doesn't apply to this situation at all. I imagine the lower your rep gets the more penalties you get slapped with until your character is nearly unplayable.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Um... Your quoted part... that is focused on NAKED PVP.

It seems unlikely to me that the post was talking about their layered approach to dealing with the problem of "NAKED PVP". But if that's your story and you're sticking to it, knock yourself out.

Xeen wrote:
Log off for a bit, play another character or something else, come back to a pool of skill points and high enough reputation and/or alignment to skill up, and go out again. (or you can just grind your rep up)

It seems exceedingly unlikely that the game will make it that easy for you to recover your Reputation, or grind it back up.

The solution to most of your objections can be summed up by "don't let people make easy recoveries from evil acts".

The most important thing is not that characters can kill other characters. The most important thing is that there are consequences for doing that. And it's a corollary of that statement that the more often a character kills other characters, or helps a character killer, the harder it must be for that character to recover from doing so.

Goblin Squad Member

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Xeen wrote:
Trust me, it will not matter

Trust me, it will.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
At that point, your character will suck. Your character will be so weak that it isn't competitive and the developers are actually hoping you will just give up and leave the game.

And that's piss poor game design. If I go around murdering people, I fully expect that I won't be able to go into the vast majority of settlements, be they player or NPC. I expect not to be able to interact with many, if any NPCs. I'd even take UO's stat loss system (if you died while having too many murder counts, and then ressurected, you lost some skill/stat points). But if bottoming out is going to cause my character to straight up suck? No thanks. It'd be thinly veiled consensual PvP. I'd laugh at the joke that PFO would be at that point.

But really, until we have hard facts on the way PFOs systems work, it's pointless to argue the point. I hope you're wrong, because I'd hate to have to walk away from this game after blowing the amount of money on it I already have.

Goblin Squad Member

@Doggan, I actually think that it is good game design, it discourages being a murderer for the sake of being a murderer...sounds to me like working as intended.

Maybe this game just will not appeal to those who like to play as a murderer...but I encourage them to give it a try anyways. Maybe they will find a different style of play that GW has designated as "positive play" and find they enjoy it. We can all hope so.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed more posts. Again, please leave the hostility out of the thread.

Goblin Squad Member

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Perhaps it's the beer talking, but I'd never noticed how sad Chris's eyes seem, as if they bear the weight of all the evils they've seen.

Goblin Squad Member

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Xeen wrote:

only stated penalty is rep and alignment...

only stated reason to boot people is griefing (real griefing) and scamming...

Killing people just because has never been stated as a reason to ban anyone. In fact, it has been stated it will lead to low rep.

That is all

Nor have I ever stated that people will get banned for it. That's not what's been stated. This is what's been stated.

And this.

And this.

And this.

And this.

I could go on longer if I had the time. Yes they've backed off the "chaotic evil will suck" statements because they've decided to make low reputation characters bear all the suckage instead.

I would challenge you to find any posts that contradict that. Any posts at all that say, oh wait we've decided against that and low reputation will be competitive. Anywhere low rep players have been pitched as anything other than crap as characters you do not want to play. Anywhere at they've said there won't be consequence for killing everyone you see, or that "griefing" is the only behavior that will be penalized. Best I can find on your side of the argument is a 2011 quote where they hadn't decided yet. It's not 2011, and they've made their decision. They've told the kickstarter a who paid them 1 million dollars what it was, and this is not the EVE you're looking for.

Goblin Squad Member

How many times will Chris have to come in here and delete because people can't debate in a civil manner?

This has too be pretty close to the top.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:

How many times will Chris have to come in here and delete because people can't debate in a civil manner?

This has too be pretty close to the top.

My threads just bring out the best in people.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think Chris should rename this thread "Arguing about the definition of the word Random".

Someone posted a player killing another player to take his stuff - that's not random it's a robbery.

Other people described getting killed in a way they don't like as RPK - no that's just something you wish hadn't happened. Are we going to call everything we don't like the label RPK to get it tossed out? More to the point: what's the point?

Bludd posted a basic structure of how his group of bad characters are going to do bad things. 1.) a character saying a thing isn't a person saying the thing. It's called role play for a reason don't get your knickers in a bunch. 2.) It's content, stuff like what he described happens and there are plenty of circumstances when it won't go down like that. I'm happy to have bad guys around it would be a more boring game if all we did was gather resources and build settlements then go dancing on rainbows.

Seriously internet forums have been around how long? Knickers unbunched.

Goblin Squad Member

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It's strange how online communication heightens everything eg twitter tirades, forum miscommunication ad nauseum. Definitely one of the pit-falls of online games to foster a game community. That said marriage councellors sometimes say there's nothing like a roaring argument to suggest that both sides still really, really care! I guess it's talking into the crowd: I'm sure Monty Python has a few funny sketches eg The Life Of Brian: "Silence!"

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