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The show producers and movie maker argued video tapes should be outlawed because they would estroy them. Their arguement was that people would start recording these for free and this would gobble the profit and make the busines unprofitable. The legal system disagreed.
Mp3s were viewed in the same say by the recording industry. These industries are much stronger after the invoations mentioned above.
These technologies are actually very good for the businesses that use them. Yes pirate will come and abuse these, but they are going to be there anyway. Now you can reduce the risk for trying these products before people buy them.
My brother in law intorduced him to the game. He had no books and no intention of dropping money on a game he had no idea about. I made him a non-core character. Now he wants peopel to buy him the books for christmas. Allowing this player to taste these items encourages them to want to be part of it.
RPGs are an escape. Like any escape they are addicting and driving. Look at the fierceness people have on these boards about it. I say hand out this drug as much as possible. Let people try it and watch them buy the products.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The PDF is a viable legal source.
You don't have to have it in paper or book form.
Having it on your tablet or laptop is completely acceptable.
Well, I currently don't have a tablet. And with a 2 year old daughter plus some debt, won't be able to afford one for a while (maybe in 6 months?). And my laptop is constantly being used to entertain said 2 year old, so unless I want to anger my wife, I can't take my laptop away from her :)
Hence the reason why I just print out the revelant stuff from my PDFs, including the CRB. I just don't want to be forced to print out the whole CRB.
Unless you're generous enough to buy me a tablet/laptop? ;-)
You don't have to print the whole crb... printing the pertinent pages is enough....
When people are discussing photocopies, they are referring to photocopies out of the actual hardcovers which are currently not legal
That is going to be a hilarious audit.
"Okay, you have the class, race, and skill descriptions from all your skills. Oh... no, I'm sorry, you missed the later half of the combat manuevers, so you can disarm, but you can't trip or sunder...."
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The PDF is a viable legal source.
You don't have to have it in paper or book form.
Having it on your tablet or laptop is completely acceptable.
Well, I currently don't have a tablet. And with a 2 year old daughter plus some debt, won't be able to afford one for a while (maybe in 6 months?). And my laptop is constantly being used to entertain said 2 year old, so unless I want to anger my wife, I can't take my laptop away from her :)
Hence the reason why I just print out the revelant stuff from my PDFs, including the CRB. I just don't want to be forced to print out the whole CRB.
Unless you're generous enough to buy me a tablet/laptop? ;-)
You don't have to print the whole crb... printing the pertinent pages is enough....
When people are discussing photocopies, they are referring to photocopies out of the actual hardcovers which are currently not legal
That is going to be a hilarious audit.
"Okay, you have the class, race, and skill descriptions from all your skills. Oh... no, I'm sorry, you missed the later half of the combat manuevers, so you can disarm, but you can't trip or sunder...."
I was answering a question from another poster.
You know, you and I have had very little direct interaction on the boards; is there some reason you decided to be snotty towards me answering another players question?
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Getting back on track.
Predominately being an online player, I started buying hardcover books because I go to cons and you need the books. Then I discovered buying the PDF was the way to go. The 3 hardcover books (CRB, APG, UC) are too heavy to carry around, even for relatively short periods.
The point is, all Paizo wants is for us to buy the books. The easiest way to do that is what the rule enforces - bring it to the table. That also covers GMs being able to look up the rule without any issues. PFCBG pointed out that spotty reception also hampers games - this is an important thing to consider. Making the PRD available solves one problem, but might create another. In the best case scenario, even if the GM trusts that the player has the books (and this happens all the time in online play - it has to), then the rules still need to be able to be cleanly looked up.
What we need is:
- some sort of element of trust that the book has been purchased, or will be purchased (even if it means players just need to provide some element of convincing proof to the GMs satisfaction, with "expect table variance" involved)
- clear access to the rule when it's required
As long as those criteria are met, any solution should work. The basic rule of "you can't use that ability if we can't see the rule" can still apply where it's appropriate.
The rule doesn't have to be black and white, because it never is black and white across every single table. Allow the GM to make the final ruling on what they consider acceptable, and encourage GMs to be fair to the players about it.
When we argue rules, we're always saying "use some commonsense" - it should apply here too. Everyone wants Paizo to be making their fair share out of Pathfinder; I don't think that's in dispute.
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Complaint: The books are too heavy/expensive.
Response: Buy and use the PDFs with a tablet. They're much cheaper and lighter.
Complaint: Tablets are expensive.
Response: You can find a tablet for under $100 if you're willing to buy used. That and the price of PDFs instead of hardcovers will actually save you money in the long run.
Complaint: I don't want to have to buy anything!
Response: Then use only Core material, keeping in mind that you should eventually own a Core Rulebook.
GMs can use the PRD because they are expected to have access to a large number of resources to run some scenarios. Players don't need to use anything past Core. Using stuff past Core is a privilege, and you earn that privilege by owning the material.
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If you've already bought the hardcovers, then enjoy your hardcovers. Invest in a book carrier that you can pull.
The proposed solution of everyone being able to use the PRD has a host of problems to it, including someone's character being invalidated during a power outage. It's just not a good idea.
I joined PF Society back in 2009 (#1378!), but hadn't played PFS again until this last Gencon, since our home base prefers APs and home brews for the most part.
Anyways, a lot of heavy books have come out since then, and I was walking around at Gencon in a knee brace from an injury.
Knowing this, I loaded up my brand new iPad ( Gencon was the impetus to finally get such a device) with a boatload of PDFs.
I understand not wanting to haul around all of the weight ( I also didn't bring my usual 100+ painted minis, instead just stuffing a bag full of Reaper-Bones, for the most part). Theft is also a big issue, unfortunately.
PDFs offer an easy and relatively cheap alternative to your books. Besides, my Core is a 1st print ( And the poor old guy has seen a lot of battle at this point). It is mostly retired.
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If you've already bought the hardcovers, then enjoy your hardcovers. Invest in a book carrier that you can pull.
The proposed solution of everyone being able to use the PRD has a host of problems to it, including someone's character being invalidated during a power outage. It's just not a good idea.
Except you've circled back around to the initial complaint: Books are too heavy (or bulky, or easily stolen/damaged/lost.)
Suck it up and lug the books around may be the final ruling. Re-purchase the material you already own _and_ buy a tablet to read it on, that's coming across as arrogant, antagonistic and snide.
There are a lot of legitimate reasons to not want to bring your hard covers to a con. I think that the fact that several people who have suggested buying luggage to carry hard covers have also mentioned that they've switched to PDFs is itself enough to lend credence to the notion that bringing hard covers is an honest burden.
People who own hard backs deserve some empathy: They're trying to do it right, they're investing in the product, they're playing by the rules, they're paying more for the books than PFD buyers are. They're good customers and it would be wise to treat them as such. Callously telling them to suck it up or buy extra product is bad customer service.
People who buy hard covers are way up on the demand curve: They're paying as much for one book as a PDF buyer is paying for 4 or 5 books.* Paizo should seriously consider accommodating them if at all possible or politely explaining (or at least hinting at) why it isn't possible. If the logistics of verifying rules is too burdensome for photocopies, like PFCBG is worried about, fine. We have to bend to reality, but Paizo needs to let their customers know that they've honestly looked at options and couldn't find any that would work. Part of doing that is not discouraging threads like this where multiple options beyond simply using the PRD have been suggested.
[Not to say that the actual...
One thing you're missing.
Yes a lot of us have said how we used to carry books and things and how we have switched to PDFs for the ease.
what you're missing is that we have (cept for those subscriber folks) purchased the hardcover books and also purchased the PDF.. we have bought twice. So while it might come off as arrogant and rude, we have been there and can discuss this from experience vs. theory crafting how it works.
Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.
Then players could use print outs and the PRD for rules reference while guaranteeing that they purchased the rules.
This wouldn't work for used books, but that can be considered a benefit from the money making standpoint.
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Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.
I imagine that it could be done (at least, the unique codes idea), but it'd require developing and implementing such a system, which Paizo doesn't have today.
They'd need to assign unique ID codes to each copy going forward (again, seems to possible, but would require a new system)...but, what do you do with the thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of Pathfinder books which were sold before that system was implemented? Every book that you, I, and everyone else in this thread currently owns wouldn't have one of those unique codes, but they should be just as "legal" as new books which have those codes.
Also, I'm going to hazard a guess (based on my experience with many other OP campaigns) that most Pathfinder players don't play PFS (and, a lot of them may not even realize that PFS exists). You're instituting a system (which is not free to implement) which has to be applied to every single Pathfinder publication, for the use of a minority (possibly a small minority) of the people who are buying those books.
Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.I imagine that it could be done (at least, the unique codes idea), but it'd require developing and implementing such a system, which Paizo doesn't have today.
They'd need to assign unique ID codes to each copy going forward (again, seems to possible, but would require a new system)...but, what do you do with the thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of Pathfinder books which were sold before that system was implemented? Every book that you, I, and everyone else in this thread currently owns wouldn't have one of those unique codes, but they should be just as "legal" as new books which have those codes.
Also, I'm going to hazard a guess (based on my experience with many other OP campaigns) that most Pathfinder players don't play PFS (and, a lot of them may not even realize that PFS exists). You're instituting a system (which is not free to implement) which has to be applied to every single Pathfinder publication, for the use of a minority (possibly a small minority) of the people who are buying those books.
For older books, I suggest that Paizo allow venture captains to use a permanent marking utensil to mark the section in the book where the ID will be printed. After making such a mark, give the player an ID that they can register on the database.
Now the system would not be free to implement, but Paizo forum accounts can already keep track of purchases, so many of the critical features already exist.
Now is the cost of adding the key-code to all books and implementing this system less than the potential money generated? Maybe.
What does PFS get from this?
Books cost far more than PDFs, but many people perfer to buy books. Some who play PFS buy PDFs because they are easier to carry. These people would generate money for paizo.
This system prevents multiple people from using the same hardcover book to play PFS at different times. This also prevents people who are done with PFS from selling their books to a new PFS player.
Players will be able to use the PRD. Something many people have wanted to do. I don't know if this directly makes money for Paizo, but it would make some people happy.
This kind of system can be used to prevent altered pirated PDFs from being used to play PFS.
The way I see it, this system would make playing PFS more convenient and eliminate loopholes where people could play without giving Paizo money.
Another suggestion here. It doesn't solve every problem, but it's an additional option (and additional options are always good).
Paizo could print some small-format softcover (and cheaper) editions of the main hardback rulebooks, perhaps focusing on things such as spell and ability lists to keep the size down.
It isn't going to solve the issue of "I want the electronic format version for free", but it would help those who don't want to lug those heavy, expensive hardcovers around and don't have/don't want to bring a tablet either.
Yes, it's an additional expense, but it would also get you nifty far-more-portable editions of the rulebooks in question.
As an additional plus, when Paizo are present at a con they could have a pile of them for sale at their table ;)
For older books, I suggest that Paizo allow venture captains to use a permanent marking utensil to mark the section in the book where the ID will be printed. After making such a mark, give the player an ID that they can register on the database.
As a lot of people tend to object to having their books defaced, what about writing inside the back cover using an invisible ink security pen? Issuing each venture captain with a Pen+UV lamp kit wouldn't be that expensive in the grand scheme of things (the cost pales into insignificance against a single hardcover book)
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Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.
Unworkable, for reasons stated before on many threads.
Issuing each venture captain with a Pen+UV lamp kit
Unworkable. My nearest VC is ~200 miles away, and I doubt they'd want to be on UV lamp duty at conventions etc.
I can't believe that this is such a problem that it needs some expensive solution.
It would take me a while to find it, but I remember someone from Paizo stating that one of the reasons the hardcover PDFs were so cheap was because the shipping costs made subscribing to this line uneconomical for international customers, and it was to enable people to get both print & PDF for a reasonable price.
Sure, Paizo would make more money if everyone who wants to play PFS and only owns the hard backs would buy the PDFs, but is that good customer service? Is that going to improve their brand? Is it profit maximizing in the long run?
Maybe it is profit maximizing, maybe Pathfinder is so good that people will continue buying products even if they don't like the customer service they receive, I don't know....... That's Ma Bell level customer service and I can understand why people would be unhappy with it.
The OP made a suggestion on one possible solution for those that have legitimate concerns over hauling their physical library with them. Responses and opinions on both sides of the argument have been expressed (some polite, some less so).
Paizo has pretty good customer service. I do not believe that it is fair to say that they do not have good customer service based on speculation and forum discussions with non-paizo employees that do not have the same view point as you do.
Mike Brock has said that he would consider re-visiting the photocopy rule after GenCon.
I suspect that it is not going to be a quick decision, but one that looks at all of the variables (cost to implement, effects on sales, how hard to implement, how much extra work for volunteers to implement, etc..).
I suspect that rational arguments will carry more weight with Paizo than posts that can appear to be painting Paizo as a greedy and uncaring company. Please note that I am not saying that that was your intention, but upon first read of your post, that was the impression that I came away with - I suspect that that was not your intention, but the whole lack of tone on the internet played a role in my perception.
Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.Unworkable, for reasons stated before on many threads.
Oh I doubt that it is unworkable.
A UV lamp, would only have to be needed when someone tries to register an older book to make sure no one else has registered that book before.
As a lot of people tend to object to having their books defaced, what about writing inside the back cover using an invisible ink security pen? Issuing each venture captain with a Pen+UV lamp kit wouldn't be that expensive in the grand scheme of things (the cost pales into insignificance against a single hardcover book)
For older books, I suggest that Paizo allow venture captains to use a permanent marking utensil to mark the section in the book where the ID will be printed. After making such a mark, give the player an ID that they can register on the database.
That could work. The only time you would need the lamp is when someone was trying to register an older book to make sure no one else had registered that book before.
Someone expressed a venture captain being on "lamp duty", walking around from table to table checking books. There would be no need to do such a thing.
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When did Paizo first start selling PDFs of their books? I'm having trouble finding the answer myself, and I'm hoping someone else might chime in. Do people in the 'books are heavy' group still buy hardcovers, or are they now buying PDFs?
If you're standing fast in the 'books are heavy' group, why did you buy them when the PDFs have been on sale for years? Are you still buying them now?
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Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.Unworkable, for reasons stated before on many threads.Oh I doubt that it is unworkable.
A UV lamp, would only have to be needed when someone tries to register an older book to make sure no one else has registered that book before.
And who pays for this UV lamp? Paizo? The cost of books and whatnot would go up and people would complain about that.. the VO? They are volunteers, I can see them saying no to that option. You? if you aren't wiling to shell out the money for PDF then I highly doubt that you are going to be willing to buy every VO (of which there are over 200) a UV lamp.
Let's move on from that option as it isn't viable.
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I don't understand why the word of a player is insufficient proof of ownership.
We have to trust that the PCs aren't cheating with weighted dice, intentional bad math, and a variety of other methods. Why not simply require that all source material be owned to be used and allow the PRD to be accessed to clarify rules when the book isn't physically present?
Trust me. All methods of verification can be circumvented if that is the intent.
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When did Paizo first start selling PDFs of their books? I'm having trouble finding the answer myself, and I'm hoping someone else might chime in. Do people in the 'books are heavy' group still buy hardcovers, or are they now buying PDFs?
If you're standing fast in the 'books are heavy' group, why did you buy them when the PDFs have been on sale for years? Are you still buying them now?
They've had PDF's of all their current lines from inception.
The GameMastery line of modules predates the AP's by a slight bit IIRC, but the AP's have given a free PDF with subscription since the very first one.
Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.Unworkable, for reasons stated before on many threads.Oh I doubt that it is unworkable.
A UV lamp, would only have to be needed when someone tries to register an older book to make sure no one else has registered that book before.
And who pays for this UV lamp? Paizo? The cost of books and whatnot would go up and people would complain about that.. the VO? They are volunteers, I can see them saying no to that option. You? if you aren't wiling to shell out the money for PDF then I highly doubt that you are going to be willing to buy every VO (of which there are over 200) a UV lamp.
Let's move on from that option as it isn't viable.
That's why I first suggested a permanent marking utensil. The Pen-Ink UV option has merits. For a hard book cover owner they would decide if they want to get a black mark somewhere on the inside cover of their book, or buy a PDF.
Why do people think registering books online isn't viable? People that bring up actual concerns is useful. Dismissing things out of hand without reasoning, strikes me as odd.
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I don't understand why the word of a player is insufficient proof of ownership.
We have to trust that the PCs aren't cheating with weighted dice, intentional bad math, and a variety of other methods. Why not simply require that all source material be owned to be used and allow the PRD to be accessed to clarify rules when the book isn't physically present?
Trust me. All methods of verification can be circumvented if that is the intent.
Quite honestly for me, it's not so much that I don't trust the players word. But that the rule currently is that they are to bring the source material for their characters things. Be that items, or class abilities, the onus is on the player to provide the source material should the GM have a question. The rules also require ownership of the book in order to use certain items and abilities. While I don't want to be the cop at the table, signing up as a GM somewhat puts me in that position. Making sure that the players (and myself for that matter) adhere to the rules and have the source documentation.
As a GM I am not a robot, I don't know every single item, every single class ability for every single class. If you do, good for you; but I don't and I don't have time to sit down and memorize all the books so that I do.
Therefore I rely on the player to know the rules for his character and if I'm not understanding the summation that the player is giving me at the table, be able to provide the actual rule so that I am able to read and understand it quickly and move on.
The bottom line is that PFS is Paizo's world, and just like in the real world we have rules and guidelines to live by to play in their world.
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I don't understand why the word of a player is insufficient proof of ownership.
We have to trust that the PCs aren't cheating with weighted dice, intentional bad math, and a variety of other methods. Why not simply require that all source material be owned to be used and allow the PRD to be accessed to clarify rules when the book isn't physically present?
Trust me. All methods of verification can be circumvented if that is the intent.
Because people will likely lie more often about ownership of books because there is no easy way to check it.
(Edit: Im not saying they will lie more often about it tha they do now, but that a lie about this is likely more frequent than intentional bad math and weighted dice.)
Weighted dice can be pretty easy to spot when someone continually rolls very well roll after roll after roll, game after game.
Intentionally bad math can be fixed on the spot when someone calls out the player on their bad math.
I havent read every single post in the thread, but personally, I havent seen any kind of answer yet that seems feasible to use for proof, aside from just the 'A VO signs off on you owning the book.', which would likely be hardpressed to get Mike to agree to.
Edit: This is not to say that I dont trust players. We have wifi access at the lgs I organize at, so once I know a player has a book, then I dont expect them to bring it every time we meet, since we can check the PRD if need be.
sounds like a plan, I will discuss it with my group via my telepathy headset then ride my hovercar to the holographic LGS location
It wouldn't be your venture captain that has to be the one to hand out the ID. Anyone designated by Paizo could mark and hand out an ID for an older book (or even newer ones, if printing the ID with the books is deemed too costly for the benefits).
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Why not just registered your purchases to an online data base using book specific ID codes (like PC game CD keys)? When a GM questions whether or not you own the rules they can pull up your data and see if you purchased the rules. Or they can print out player data before coming to the table.Unworkable, for reasons stated before on many threads.Oh I doubt that it is unworkable.
A UV lamp, would only have to be needed when someone tries to register an older book to make sure no one else has registered that book before.
And who pays for this UV lamp? Paizo? The cost of books and whatnot would go up and people would complain about that.. the VO? They are volunteers, I can see them saying no to that option. You? if you aren't wiling to shell out the money for PDF then I highly doubt that you are going to be willing to buy every VO (of which there are over 200) a UV lamp.
Let's move on from that option as it isn't viable.
That's why I first suggested a permanent marking utensil. The Pen-Ink UV option has merits. For a hard book cover owner they would decide if they want to get a black mark somewhere on the inside cover of their book, or buy a PDF.
Why do people think registering books online isn't viable? People that bring up actual concerns is useful. Dismissing things out of hand without reasoning, strikes me as odd.
I don't want my books marked up. I have a signed copy of UC, no one is getting near that with a permanent marker
Point blank, Paizo isn't going to do anything to change the rules in a format that costs extra time and money. If you can come up with a viable option that doesn't cost Paizo an arm and a leg of time and money I'm sure people would listen. However, I'd rather them spend their time and money are putting out more product and scenarios than on something else to satisfy people that aren't willing to live within the rules.
Call me rude if you want, but that's the way I see it.
I've lived in Paizo's world since the beginning, I've had my own frustrations with the rules, but as things have evolved it has gotten better.
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When did Paizo first start selling PDFs of their books? I'm having trouble finding the answer myself, and I'm hoping someone else might chime in. Do people in the 'books are heavy' group still buy hardcovers, or are they now buying PDFs?
If you're standing fast in the 'books are heavy' group, why did you buy them when the PDFs have been on sale for years? Are you still buying them now?
They've had PDF's of all their current lines from inception.
The GameMastery line of modules predates the AP's by a slight bit IIRC, but the AP's have given a free PDF with subscription since the very first one.
Thanks Sniggevert.
Anyway, the question stands. Buying these books, you knew they were heavy. Now tablets weren't in nearly as great supply then as they are now, but at some point between Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat the price of a used iPad dropped significantly. Why did you keep buying the heavy stuff?
I'm not going to say buying the books was a waste, because I love my hardcover books. They are fantastic for home games or for bringing to a weekly game day. However, there's a reason I bought a PDF version of the core line, and it's because books are heavy.
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It wouldn't be your venture captain that has to be the one to hand out the ID. Anyone designated by Paizo could mark and hand out an ID for an older book (or even newer ones, if printing the ID with the books is deemed too costly for the benefits).sounds like a plan, I will discuss it with my group via my telepathy headset then ride my hovercar to the holographic LGS location
this sounds really good
I am going to do a virtual reality mockup of the idea with my computer that talks to me in Jude Law's voice and projects holograms that I can solidly manipulate with my hands
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The bottom line is that PFS is Paizo's world, and just like in the real world we have rules and guidelines to live by to play in their world.I am in complete agreement. Hence the point of this thread - to lobby for a change in rules.
That may have been the intent of the original post. But subsequent posts have started to come off as whiny. And those of us who have been here since the beginning have been called rude and other names from giving options that are currently viable and letting others know from our experience what paizo more than likely won't do.
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If you've already bought the hardcovers, then enjoy your hardcovers. Invest in a book carrier that you can pull.
The proposed solution of everyone being able to use the PRD has a host of problems to it, including someone's character being invalidated during a power outage. It's just not a good idea.
This dismissal out of hand of players valid concerns is honestly shocking coming from a VC. Most of us don't have access to a secure HQ to store our book carriers when we head out to the dealers room or demo halls when not playing PFS.
During a power outage I doubt most cons have enough flashlights to keep playing - and my phone will still work. Nevermind that GMs who use the PRD for prep are in the same boat.
I don't want my books marked up. I have a signed copy of UC, no one is getting near that with a permanent marker
Point blank, Paizo isn't going to do anything to change the rules in a format that costs extra time and money. If you can come up with a viable option that doesn't cost Paizo an arm and a leg of time and money I'm sure people would listen. However, I'd rather them spend their time and money are putting out more product and scenarios than on something else to satisfy people that aren't willing to live within the rules....
Well fine then. (the cost of registering ID keys is not high, but your aversion to permanent marker is to be expected)
The easiest solution is to include the PDF with the purchase of any hardcover.
Books are already an expensive premium product. Why not just make the purchase better in all ways than buying the PDF alone?
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Most of us don't have access to a secure HQ to store our book carriers when we head out to the dealers room or demo halls when not playing PFS.
Neither do GMs most times. At Gencon we were specifically told that if you left your bag at HQ, they would not be responsible for it if it got stolen.
I left my bag at an unattended table several times over the course of Gencon. Thankfully no one stole it.
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If you've already bought the hardcovers, then enjoy your hardcovers. Invest in a book carrier that you can pull.
The proposed solution of everyone being able to use the PRD has a host of problems to it, including someone's character being invalidated during a power outage. It's just not a good idea.
This dismissal out of hand of players valid concerns is honestly shocking coming from a VC. Most of us don't have access to a secure HQ to store our book carriers when we head out to the dealers room or demo halls when not playing PFS.
During a power outage I doubt most cons have enough flashlights to keep playing - and my phone will still work. Nevermind that GMs who use the PRD for prep are in the same boat.
There may have been some posts dismissing valid concerns, however, most of the posts that I have read have been trying to give the options at hand. They may not be the options that the ones with concerns want, but they are the current options.
This year at gencon... sure GMs could leave their stuff at HQ -- it was not guaranteed for safety -- but GMs also had minis and maps and other "stuff" and was a perk if you will for them GMing. Most convention HQ desks don't allow anyone (including GMs) to leave their things as there are too many people milling about for one or two people to watch and make sure things don't run off.
Most GMs may use the PRD for prepping, but they also print/copy pages that they need to. There is a whole google shared drive that proves the amount of effort GMs go to to prep for their scenarios that they are going to run.
So do they get to use the PRD -- yep, they also put in inordinate amounts of time prepping to make sure that you have a good game. So they get a perk, if you want the same perk might I suggest starting to GM?
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I don't want my books marked up. I have a signed copy of UC, no one is getting near that with a permanent marker
Point blank, Paizo isn't going to do anything to change the rules in a format that costs extra time and money. If you can come up with a viable option that doesn't cost Paizo an arm and a leg of time and money I'm sure people would listen. However, I'd rather them spend their time and money are putting out more product and scenarios than on something else to satisfy people that aren't willing to live within the rules....
Well fine then. (the cost of registering ID keys is not high, but your aversion to permanent marker is to be expected)
The easiest solution is to include the PDF with the purchase of any hardcover.
Books are already an expensive premium product. Why not just make the purchase better in all ways than buying the PDF alone?
If you were in a business to sell product and make money, would you do something that causes you to lose money? Each PDF they give away for free is money they have lost, which means the costs of other things are going to go up.
And this was already covered. It is to easy to "browse" a book, get the code and then get the free PDF.
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The easiest solution is to include the PDF with the purchase of any hardcover.
Books are already an expensive premium product. Why not just make the purchase better in all ways than buying the PDF alone?
I'd be all for this, but it provides a couple problems:
1. How do you ensure that someone who is just looking through the books isnt going to use the code out of it to get the free PDF and stick the book back on the shelf?
2. Seconday market sales of the hardcovers wouldnt get to use the code, though that would just be a risk of buying second-hand books.
3. Hardcover + free PDF is one way Paizo entices people into their subscription program thing. If you would get the same thing from your lgs, why would you bother subscribing to Paizo for them?
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If you've already bought the hardcovers, then enjoy your hardcovers. Invest in a book carrier that you can pull.
The proposed solution of everyone being able to use the PRD has a host of problems to it, including someone's character being invalidated during a power outage. It's just not a good idea.
This dismissal out of hand of players valid concerns is honestly shocking coming from a VC. Most of us don't have access to a secure HQ to store our book carriers when we head out to the dealers room or demo halls when not playing PFS.
During a power outage I doubt most cons have enough flashlights to keep playing - and my phone will still work. Nevermind that GMs who use the PRD for prep are in the same boat.
I don't remember leaving my books at any secure HQ. I had a heavy backpack to lug around whenever I went anywhere, or I asked a friend to watch my things until I returned.
When I use the PRD to prep (and I do, because it's faster to pull a monster's stat block off the PRD than to go through my PDFs), I print out the pages. A power outage doesn't hurt me at all, other than the light issues you brought up.
Finally, I'm not dismissing your concerns, or at least I'm not trying to. You want to be able to use an internet resource instead of having an owned copy of material at the table. I'm telling you it's not going to happen, and that if the issue is heaviness, you should purchase something lighter or find another means of carrying.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Matthew --
It's been my experience that players are honest about whether they own materials or not. When I've had players sit at my table and take out copies from a book, I've asked them where they've gotten them. Enough people answer honestly and against their insterests ("The venture officer downloaded them and gave them to me." 'My friend plays regularly, and he copied off the pages for me." "Well, honestly, I got it as a scan off the Internet.") that I've come to trust people who do say they have the books and made their own Xerox copies.
I'm much more strongly in the samp that allows Xerox copies of hardcover books than the camp of people who want to let players use the PRD.
The easiest solution is to include the PDF with the purchase of any hardcover.
Books are already an expensive premium product. Why not just make the purchase better in all ways than buying the PDF alone?
I'd be all for this, but it provides a couple problems:
1. How do you ensure that someone who is just looking through the books isnt going to use the code out of it to get the free PDF and stick the book back on the shelf?
2. Seconday market sales of the hardcovers wouldnt get to use the code, though that would just be a risk of buying second-hand books.
3. Hardcover + free PDF is one way Paizo entices people into their subscription program thing. If you would get the same thing from your lgs, why would you bother subscribing to Paizo for them?
1. At GenCon there was deal that if you bought Mythic Adventures you could purchase it's PDF for $5. Have retailers keep the PDF codes. When you buy a book, they put in the code and send you an email with instructions on how to get your PDF.
2. That's not exactly a bad thing. Someone playing with a used book in PFS, didn't give Paizo money for that book. If Paizo wants to confirm purchases this would help.
3. Convenience. I would think making books the more attractive options would bring in plenty of money.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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That is going to be a hilarious audit.
"Okay, you have the class, race, and skill descriptions from all your skills. Oh... no, I'm sorry, you missed the later half of the combat manuevers, so you can disarm, but you can't trip or sunder...."
I was answering a question from another poster.
You know, you and I have had very little direct interaction on the boards; is there some reason you decided to be snotty towards me answering another players question?
It wasn't so much being snotty, as I found the idea of trying to figure out what was and was not a "pertinent" page from the crb to be inately silly. You can carve out a few chapters (non spellcasters don't need the spell list obviously) but every character uses most of the rules.
In otherwords. It was a humorous observation. Lighten up.