The idea is to have natural attacks that you can use during wildshape in addition to the ones you get from your wildshape.
I think I found some even if you normally lose things like natural attacks when polymorphed.
- bite attack gaines by the wolfscarred face oracle curse
- claws you can grow because of your sorcerer bloodline
While I am not sure about the second the first seems sure because an oracle curse is something only a diety can remove or suppress.
Are there others?
How about aspect of the beast? Would those claws remain?
Claws from the barbarian rage power. I think it was lesser beast totem.
I don't think there is much 'addition to' though, can't use the same 'weapon' twice.
I was not trying to get the same natural weapon twice but searching for different ways to get natural attacks that remain when polymorphed.
Aspect of the Beast, Lesser Beast Totem, and the Abyssal bloodline's Claws are not described as polymorph effects. Thus, by RAW, they would seem to be allowed.
However, I think they are all intended to be polymorph effects. Aspect of the Beast is tied to Wildshape (as a prerequisite) while Lesser Beast Totem and the Abyssal bloodline's claws are both supernatural abilities that change your form (albeit, in limited ways).
Wolfscarred Face has its own questions since it seems to be part of your natural form. If it goes away while polymorphed that would seem to be a major flaw in the curse (Alter Self would get rid of it). However, if it persists regardless of form then it would apply while polymorphed.
I would figure it persists.
- Gauss
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
CalethosVB, we know that. That is not the question right now. The question is if they are also polymorph effects since you cannot have 2 polymorph effects going at the same time.
- Gauss
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
So rage powers would be the best option since they are supernatural powers that rely upon your class rather than your original form.
Lesser fiend totem might be a better option than lesser beast totem since many beast shaped forms have claws anyway (or maybe hooves, which would seem to rule out claws. I would rule that fingers or toes are the only bit of form you need).
Choosing lesser fiend totem is less of a loss when you are going to mostly play a druid than if you play a barbarian (especially since you can get pounce anyway from wildshape). It also presents an excellent option if you are out of wildshapes. The gore will do 1.5x STR damage if it is your only natural attack, and means you can still arm yourself well if you have claws from your race or aspect of the beast.
Well, this all assumes that the rage powers are not polymorph effects. For lesser beast totem at least, I would like to imagine that it is not, but that you are just so hulked out that you start ripping things apart with your bare hands. Make those into bear hands, and it only gets better.
CalethosVB, we know that. That is not the question right now. The question is if they are also polymorph effects since you cannot have 2 polymorph effects going at the same time.
- Gauss
Since the rules specify that abilities that add to your form is legal with polymorph, it seem safe to rule that rage powers just like sorcerer's claws works when polymorphed.
HaraldKlak, perhaps you should read my other post? The one that was just prior to the one you quoted?
- Gauss
My idea is a druid who uses the elemental body (earth elemental) wildshape once he gets it. So he'll only have his slam normally.
I am still in the brainstorming phase and have yet to talk to my gm about using manufactored weapons while in elemental form. But in case he doesn't allow that I wanted to look for alternatives to add some damage to the guy.
I would prefer to stay single class druid but if it can't be prevented I could add some dip. But that would delay getting the wildhshape.
Eldritch heritage is not a good solution, either because two feats and the needed cha look like to high a cost for some rounds of claws.
HaraldKlak, perhaps you should read my other post? The one that was just prior to the one you quoted?
- Gauss
I did kind of miss parts of that post.
However I believe that the argument stands.
The important part from the polymorph section being: "You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function"
I fail to see the relevance of debating whether they are polymorph effects or not, since the text explicitly specifies that these types of abilities still function.
HaraldKlak, because of the other section on Polymorph. There are two sections of the polymorph rules at issue here.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
Thus, the question that has been asked, do these other abilities qualify as polymorph effects?
As I stated, RAW they are not listed as such. RAI, some of them may very well be.
In any case, while the Abyssal Sorcerer ability is specifically called out as being allowed not all of them may be and thus at least need discussion.
- Gauss
In this instance, I regard the "allow you to add features" part as more specific than the general rule on polymorph effects not stacking.
And I think it is safely safe to assume that lesser beast shape falls within the group "class feature that add feature to existing form".
Regarding considering them polymorph effects:
1) Thematically, it makes total sense if they were polymorph effects.
2) Mechanically, it makes less sense. One consequence is that the barbarian cannot be affected by enlarge person.
And yet, the question still needs to be asked to come to that conclusion, does it not?
The point I am making is that this is not as simple as 'duh, yes'. Each ability needs to be considered for two criteria.
- Gauss
Pretty sure aspect of the beast is dependant on form. Once you have the claws you have them. They are physically there. As far as beast totem goes the game doesnt really describe where the claws come from. Id always assumed they kind of popped into existance.
But you still have the feat that gives you the claws. So unless something happens that makes you temporary loose the prerequesites I think you should retain the benefit. The claws don't come from your form (which you change) but from your feats (whichg you retain).
That's like saying that you can't use your dodge feat while wildshaped.
I agree with Mojorat regarding Aspect of the Beast.
Claws you have permanently is a part of your form. It doesn't matter whether they come from race, a class, or a feat.
Your 'form' consist of several physical traits. Natural armor is an obvious one, which can come from feats, or classes as well as race.
For a corner example, take the tails of a kitsune: They seem pretty tied up with the kitsune form.
But you still have the feat that gives you the claws. So unless something happens that makes you temporary loose the prerequesites I think you should retain the benefit. The claws don't come from your form (which you change) but from your feats (whichg you retain).
That's like saying that you can't use your dodge feat while wildshaped.
No it isn't. You took a feat that granted you claws in your natural form. You are now changing your form to something else. Natural attacks are form dependant, so those natural attacks are removed/replaced by the new form.
If the feat said you could grow claws at will, as a standard/move/swift/immediate/free action, you would retain access (after activating them). But that isn't what the feat does, it alters your characters 'normal' body and gives them access to a natural weapon. It is an EX ability which starts the moment you take the feat, it isn't able to be dismissed and recalled, it is now part of your natural form. And as an EX ability it is lost per the polymorph school write up regardless.
Following this logic, if I take the feat while wildshaped will it be part of my wildshape from then on? Say I take it while I am polymorphed into a medium earth elemental, do I now always have the claws in medium earth elemental form but not in human form?
Following this logic, if I take the feat while wildshaped will it be part of my wildshape from then on? Say I take it while I am polymorphed into a medium earth elemental, do I now always have the claws in medium earth elemental form but not in human form?
Not unless the wildshaped form were a requirement of taking the feat. The wildshape is magical polymorph effect altering your body. The feat grants 'you' EX claw attacks, not the 'end result of your magically altered form' EX claw attacks.