GM Rolls - Open or Screened?


GM Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

I may have missed it, but I haven't seen any statement on whether GMs must roll in the open or not. Is there an official statement I haven't caught?
Feel free to debate and discuss it philosophically if you wish, but I'm looking for the official Organized Play stance on the subject.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Its a personal matter. I prefer not to use the screen, just because it cuts off interaction with the players and i can't stand for a gaming session. Its rare, but if i need to hide a die roll i just put my hand down and roll behind that.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

As far as I know there is no official stance on screen/no-screen.

I prefer to run without a screen.

As the BigNorseWolf said, it is a matter of preference.

4/5

I roll my highly visible black on opaque yellow dice out where players can see them... except when they shouldn't know the number, such as NPC stealth/hide checks, traps etc, where I just roll behind/into my other hand. So hidden rolls are not common.
It's really a GM call/matter of taste.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have a line of index cards that keep track of initiative in front of me. I roll behind that, which means that if a player really wants to look at what I'm rolling, they can and I have no problem with that. If they don't want to look, then they just let the index cards block them.

Except for Bonekeep. When I ran Bonekeep, I bought one of the bigger Paizo d20s and rolled in the middle of the table. Go ahead. Do the math in your head. Be scared. It will make your death that much sweeter.

Sovereign Court 4/5

I use a screen. One thing I liked about D&D 4th ed. is the fact that their screen was landscape as opposed to portrait, so it was shorter and didn't obstruct view to the players as much. That said, I fidget. A lot. So I end up standing for most of the scenarios anyway. While I do roll behind the screen, the main purpose is to hide my miniatures and tokens to have them at hand when I need them while keeping them a surprise. Nothing like whipping out a couple water elementals when everyone's expecting human enemies. Also, it keeps my stat blocks obscured. I just roll behind it because it's inconvenient to roll over the screen.

Grand Lodge 1/5

I use the Pathfinder DM screen, just because it provides a lot of information so I'm not constantly checking the book, or my laptop. It allows me to view stuff not normally accessible, so to speak, and I appreciate that fact. Also, my players do not need to know every DC and roll I am making, and I don't approve of them gaining information based off of die rolls and simple math. It negates much of the fun, and I've had to start weaning them off of gathering information from me that I don't want them to know.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5

I started out using a screen, now I just roll out in the open as I feel they can't accuse me of cheating if they can see that I crit them multiple times.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Totenpfuhl wrote:
I started out using a screen, now I just roll out in the open as I feel they can't accuse me of cheating if they can see that I crit them multiple times.

I had this problem last week. The Goblin archers kept critting, and almost killed the monk. He didn't complain about it, but the cleric did.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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I use oversized d20s and ask that everyone roll in the open. We've all had that GM that rolled behind a screen, and kept critting every attack and succeeding at every check. I don't want to be interpreted as that. Rolling in the open fosters more trust.

3/5

I hardly ever use a screen, but I've started using one because it's nice to clip images and artwork on the front of it for players to see (like pictures of NPCs and so on) - in that sense it can *help* with immersion.

As for hiding dice rolls, I've never really bothered with that, though I don't particularly make an effort to "roll in the open", either.

As a player, I'm not particularly impressed when a GM rolls in the open, either.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

As a GM, I prefer making hidden rolls (I don't use a screen; I play online).

The reasons being, first, I know I can trust myself with how I roll.

Second, I want to be able to decide to fudge dice to save players if I roll a string of 20s through half the game and the game is really becoming less fun as a result. I don't actually recall a time in my history of running games when I've had to invoke that, but I want the option.

The players don't get to know if the bad guy is doing 2d6+6 or 1d4+2, but they know how much damage they receive. I play the bad guys in a way that they don't know whether the characters are doing 3d6 or 1d6 either.

Liberty's Edge

So, it seems there is no official ruling on open or hidden rolls for the GM. I remember reading that player rolls must be (natch). Additionally, there is indeed a section of the GM101 document that speaks toward 'fudging' rolls, so it must be assumed that sometimes hidden GM rolls are the norm.
Personally, the only reason I would want to keep rolls behind the screen is to avoid exactly what Avatar-1 speaks toward. I don't want to ruin everyone's fun with an insane run of monster critical hits or some other. Not to say I reward poor playing nor would never kill a PC, but I don't want to ruin fun with heartless dice.

5/5

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Open > Screened

Sovereign Court 4/5 *

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

I would personally be very disappointed to discover or suspect a gm had fudged the dice in my favour to prevent a death. Much rather have my character killed by heartless dice than a heartless GM ( see Kyle Baird above). ;-)

3/5

The danger - and this is somewhat philosophical, I suppose - with "fudging" by the GM is that the game ceases to be "a game" and becomes "the GM's forced narrative"... which is never as fun as playing a game.

So I am strenuously opposed to GM "fudging" - if a GM feels inclined to do this, it's in his or her players' best interest to roll openly.

Sovereign Court 4/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

I used to use a screen but it prevents players from seeing the initiative order and thus being ready for their turns. I have found my players meta game less now that I gave up the screen. I count up the damage rather than count down the hp, and I don't particularly care if they see how much damage they have done (they used to add that up out loud any way). They have no new knowledge about how much damage something will take.

I don't find they are any more or less likely to peek at the scenario and "cheaters gonna cheat" in that case.

Dark Archive 4/5

The more important the roll is for the players the further I roll it towards the center of the table (crucial BBEG saving throws, crit confirmation rolls)


I roll Trap Finding, Disable Device, and when necessary, Disguise checks. Because the players shouldn't know if they automatically win on those.

"So you've found the trap."

"I wish to disarm it."

/gm roll

"You believe you've cut the right wires."

"I'll open the chest."

"The lid of the chest flies open and..." Drama and anticipation. Loot or death?

/edit: Did not realize this was an organized play question. Still, that's how I run games.

1/5 **

I roll in the open, except in the case of rolls that should explicitly be hidden from players (such as certain applications of disable device, disguise, and linguistics).

Scarab Sages 2/5 *

I roll screened for low levels...strings of crits are just unfun.
I roll open for higher tiers as players have more on the line don't want to feel cuddled or cheated.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

The thing about GMs fudging dice is that players will almost never ask for a GM to "go easy" when it comes to wanting it - it's almost considered blasphemy - and players who don't want fudging for all the reasons mentioned above will always be vocal if it's mentioned.

Having said that, I think I strike a pretty good balance - like I said, I don't recall ever having done it to date. Games that I've run have generally been on the easy side thanks to my bad luck rolling, rather than on the hard side due to my good luck rolling :)

End of the day, fun must outweigh challenge, regardless of your tastes. For some people those are the same thing, and for some people, it's not.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

I generally use a screen, mainly because I caught a player once reading the scenario from my printed copy. In regards to open rolls, however...

I roll behind a screen in 1-5s or 1-7s.

I consider rolling behind a screen in 3-7s.

I never roll behind a screen in 5-9s or 7-11s - the rolls are public.

I roll all enemy saves in public. This led to a particularly amusing incident whereby I rolled a 2, the party Witch was rejoicing slumbering a creature...only to find that its Will save was higher than her DC.

I think that, when done, fudging should still be close. Shave off an HP or 2 of damage here or there. Sometimes, it's impossible to save players from themselves, but give some new players some slack. Always remember there is a human element to this game.

5/5

I've tried using a screen, but I'm short so a screen means I can't see that table very well and I like to be part of the action. Plus I feel it promotes a more honest gaming table if I'm not hiding what I'm doing.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

PFCBG: I recently came across a screen that I'm really enjoying - it's made up of 6 4X6 panels. It works really well, and it's low enough that I can easily chat with my players without it being a hindrance. I mainly want the psychological aspect of there being a divider between my area and the players' area, and showing that they shouldn't look at my stuff.

5/5

Netopalis wrote:
PFCBG: I recently came across a screen that I'm really enjoying - it's made up of 6 4X6 panels. It works really well, and it's low enough that I can easily chat with my players without it being a hindrance. I mainly want the psychological aspect of there being a divider between my area and the players' area, and showing that they shouldn't look at my stuff.

I don't think I could get in the habit of using a screen at this point, 'm already so used to not using one that it wouldn't feel natural.

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Coming from home games I always rolled behind the screen, and used it to hide miniatures, keep region/city maps or key NPC's etc..

My first Con game somebody suggested I was 'cheating' (I don't fudge).

Didn't make me happy,(As a person or but I rolled in the open and enjoyed karma at it's finest.

Years later; I roll in the open except for the secret rolls (and I have a thicker skin).

Horizon Hunters 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis

I use a screen and a 3-ring easel binder in which I place the scenario. I typically roll behind the screen because it just more convenient for me to do so.

However, whenever I score a threat, I always move the screen to show the players. Any threat and/or crit that comes up, they get to see. I roll enough of them that showing them is the easiest way to demonstrate it's true.

Lantern Lodge 3/5

I personally never use a screen. I believe full transparency when it comes to all dice rolled at the table makes a game better.

5/5

CalethosVB wrote:

I roll Trap Finding, Disable Device, and when necessary, Disguise checks. Because the players shouldn't know if they automatically win on those.

"So you've found the trap."

"I wish to disarm it."

/gm roll

"You believe you've cut the right wires."

"I'll open the chest."

"The lid of the chest flies open and..." Drama and anticipation. Loot or death?

/edit: Did not realize this was an organized play question. Still, that's how I run games.

I do about the same narrative even with the player's rolling.

Player: Rolls an 18 while disabling a trap.
Me: You believe you've cut the right wires... the dot dot dot is the key part! :-)

Player: Rolls a 20 on their perception.
Me: You don't believe the door to be trapped...

I also have the players pre-roll several perceptions and sense motives before the game starts and have them record them on the cards I use to keep track of initiative. I usually decide before looking at them which of the scores to keep (usually the second or third and almost never the first because players tend to record their best roll first...). Then in certain situations I'll let the players roll for their sense motive or perception but will secretly use the roll from their card. It adds a bit of mystery w/o me being the one who's rolling the dice.

Player: Rolls a 20 on their perception for a total score of 32.
Me: You don't believe the chest is trapped. It even looks like it's unlocked.
Player: Sweet! I open it up, what's inside?
Me: Boom!
Player: WTF? A 32 didn't detect that?
Me: Well a 32 would have, however I was using your second perception roll that you made before the game which was only a 19.
Player: Nuts.

In this situation, if the player had rolled a really low number, they would have reacted more cautiously and either searched again or had someone else search for them. Occasionally you get the good player who can resist the urge to metagame the roll and act the same as if they had taken a 10 or rolled a 20.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I used to roll in the open, but then I ran a couple of scenarios (in a row, I think) where I really needed to protect some information. Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that I liked the screen's effect on my space management at the table, so now I use it pretty consistently.

4/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I roll big dice on the table in front of everyone. It generally encourages players to do the same so I don't usually have to ask them to do so.

Besides, I enjoy the experience everyone shares when the BBEG rolls a 1. Or a 20.

Liberty's Edge

screen > open

:)

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I roll in my dice tray, no screen. I've never noticed the players pay any attention to what I roll.


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for all those who don't use GM screens... don't you find the players always trying to look at your notes/ module, since its out in the open?

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Notes?

Sovereign Court 2/5 **

I mostly always use a screen to hide notes/mod/handouts but make all rolls out in the public.

Sovereign Court 4/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Grollub wrote:

for all those who don't use GM screens... don't you find the players always trying to look at your notes/ module, since its out in the open?

I was worried about this but no, not really. I just don't leave the page I am looking at sitting out in the open, but cover it with another page if I am not looking up a stat. I also keep all my minis in a small box and bring them out as I need them.

The honest truth is that it was a bigger problem when I had a screen. Players just need to go for that "forbidden fruit" for some reason with the peek behind the screen when they get up etc.

I also figure "cheaters gonna cheat".

5/5

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Glen Shackleton wrote:
"cheaters gonna cheat".

And gugs gonna bite, claw, claw, claw, claw, rend, drag away and devour.


A GM who wants to cheat on the monsters' behalf will want a screen... but so will a GM who wants to cheat on the players' behalf.

So if your GM uses a screen, the question is--is he trying to kill you, or trying to save you?

5/5

There are plenty of ways to 'cheat' on the players' behalf without a GM screen.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Calybos1 wrote:

A GM who wants to cheat on the monsters' behalf will want a screen... but so will a GM who wants to cheat on the players' behalf.

So if your GM uses a screen, the question is--is he trying to kill you, or trying to save you?

All GM's who want to cheat (for or against the players, regardless) will want to use a screen, however not all GM's who use a screen will want to cheat.

Silver Crusade 5/5

As a player I like being able to see GM rules, not really as a matter of openness or accountability, but to me it's more exciting to see the roll and either celebrate a low roll or dread a threat/crit. In the home game I run I used to hide rolls, but I prefer to let the PC's see now and know that whatever happens it's the dice deciding and not me trying to pamper/punish them.

1/5

I use a (official paizo) GM screen, though I also stand for virtually all of the session in order to make sure I have the player's attention and also to accentuate roleplay

I roll behind the screen, keep my notes/prep stuff/pawns/minis there and utilize many of the helpful charts/tables that are on it

I generally prefer the screen as well for hiding the occasional fudged roll in favor of the players, though I do not think if you asked any of my players they would know that I occasionally do so

EDIT: Just realized this was specifically for PFS, in which case everything above still pretty much applies, but my pro-player fudging becomes virtually non-existent

4/5

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I've recently changed how I roll my dice, having always used a full screen in the past. I like having a screen to hide minis and notes, as well as to hang pictures from - though I don't like if it's too high as it does overly separate me from the players.

So what I've done is make my own screen from 2 landscape pieces of cardstock, which I've decorated with maps of Golarion on the outside and a few charts on the inside. I set this up just off-center to my left. Then I can easily do most of my rolls in the open, but if I need to make a hidden roll I can use the screen.

After hiding all my rolls for the better part of 30+ years, I find I really like rolling out in the open, at least for attacks and saves. I notice the players being more engaged with my end of the combat as well, eagerly watching to see how the die falls. It makes for a more engaging and exciting combat.

Grand Lodge 2/5

I started off rolling without a screen because we have had a gm in our home game admit he wasnt honest about his rolls behind the screen and usually in favor of the monsters. Another was suspect. I wanted to be more transparent about my rolling and havent wanted hide any of my rolls.

Thats not saying I dont fudge in the favor of a brand new player or level 1-2 toon when necessary. Math can conviently be mistaken on close rolls and the few players that are metagaming the math usually wont complain if its in their benefit.

That said, there was one time I had to fudge a damage roll and an individual said something. He is one that always metagaming monster knowledge and looks over the GM notes while your not looking though. So I'm really not too concerned. I don't think he understands that sometimes its more important to keep a new player happy. Luckally in my experience, this is a rare individual.

I guess what im rambling about is that rolling behind a screen is not necessary in order to protect the players, if thats your modivation for using the screen.

Horizon Hunters 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis

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Calybos1 wrote:

A GM who wants to cheat on the monsters' behalf will want a screen... but so will a GM who wants to cheat on the players' behalf.

So if your GM uses a screen, the question is--is he trying to kill you, or trying to save you?

I find this to be offensive, really. I don't cheat. I like to have the screen for a number of reasons:

1. It helps me control the real estate I have available to me at the table.
2. I like to keep die rolls secret because it keeps people guessing.
3. I want to the keep the scenario and papers hidden from the very few players who have prying eyes.

But, please - don't suggest that those of us who use screens want to cheat.


I can say i almost always use a screen... has nothing to do with "Gm's wanting to cheat" but I usually have alot of stuff behind the screen.

Modules, notes, notes that are "constantly getting updated round by round " etc.. and players WILL cheat and look at anything.

I've read almost all the books for D&D... so I know it doesn't take much to put 2+2 together.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

SOME players will cheat. Not all.


I always use a screen. I think it adds a measure of secrecy to the game. Also it hides any notes I might be taking and keeps the players honest so they do not feel the need to peek. If I ever feel the need to fudge a roll behind my screens it is always in the favor of the players.

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