[guide 5.0] Out of subtier gold

[thaX]

What is "average gold" that is told to calculate? Is it half? (rounded down)?

[Mystic Lemur]

It is the average, (x+y)/2, where x is low tier gold and y is high tier gold. And yes, I believe you round down.

For example, if low tier is 532gp and high tier is 1940gp the average would be (532+1940)/2 or 2472/2, which is 1236gp.

[thaX]

So that would be the gold for out of tier, up or down?

On a whole, I think that might be a nice compromise to what was eluded to in the vid blog a while back. Playing down doesn't hurt as much now, and playing up isn't the gold paradise it is for now, another week now, right?

The other side of the coin, the party now will be forced to play up now, the +1 for lower seasons seems to be gone in favor of this. The four player down scale for the latter seasons will certainly help, but I hope 5th season is tempered down a bit from the 4th season antics.

Thank you for the response.

[Mystic Lemur]

thaX wrote:

So that would be the gold for out of tier, up or down?

Right. The same gold whether you are low playing up or high playing down.

Quote:

Thank you for the response.

No problem. :)

[Samuli]

So, I didn't find the definition of out-of-subtier. Is it somewhere? When should I apply out-of-subtier gold, to which characters?

For example, let's say there's a party of four with levels 4, 5, 5, and 6. They play subtier 6-7 on a tier 3-7 scenario. Who gets out-of-subtier gold?

[Fromper]

Samuli wrote:

So, I didn't find the definition of out-of-subtier. Is it somewhere? When should I apply out-of-subtier gold, to which characters?

For example, let's say there's a party of four with levels 4, 5, 5, and 6. They play subtier 6-7 on a tier 3-7 scenario. Who gets out-of-subtier gold?

If you play sub-tier 6-7, then any PC whose level is not 6 or 7 gets the out of sub-tier gold.

In your example, though, you wouldn't be allowed to play sub-tier 6-7. The rules now state that playing up or down is no longer optional. A 4 person party with an average level of 5 in a 3-7 is required to play down. So you'd play sub-tier 3-4, the level 4 player would get sub-tier 3-4 gold, and the level 5 and 6 players would get the out of sub-tier gold.

[Samuli]

Fromper wrote:

If you play sub-tier 6-7, then any PC whose level is not 6 or 7 gets the out of sub-tier gold.

Thanks. Where did you get this from? I didn't find it from the guide.

Fromper wrote:

In your example, though, you wouldn't be allowed to play sub-tier 6-7. The rules now state that playing up or down is no longer optional. A 4 person party with an average level of 5 in a 3-7 is required to play down. So you'd play sub-tier 3-4, the level 4 player would get sub-tier 3-4 gold, and the level 5 and 6 players would get the out of sub-tier gold.

Huh? Where did you get this from? I didn't see any mention of party with APL between the possible subtiers couldn't choose whether to play up or down.

[Michael Brock]

Samuli wrote:

Fromper wrote:

If you play sub-tier 6-7, then any PC whose level is not 6 or 7 gets the out of sub-tier gold.

Thanks. Where did you get this from? I didn't find it from the guide.

Fromper wrote:

In your example, though, you wouldn't be allowed to play sub-tier 6-7. The rules now state that playing up or down is no longer optional. A 4 person party with an average level of 5 in a 3-7 is required to play down. So you'd play sub-tier 3-4, the level 4 player would get sub-tier 3-4 gold, and the level 5 and 6 players would get the out of sub-tier gold.

Huh? Where did you get this from? I didn't see any mention of party with APL between the possible subtiers couldn't choose whether to play up or down.

Page 31, under Determining Subtiers.

[CRobledo]

Samuli wrote:

Huh? Where did you get this from? I didn't see any mention of party with APL between the possible subtiers couldn't choose whether to play up or down.

Determining Subtiers section of the 5.0 guide, page 31

Quote:

Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario), a party of four characters must play the lower tier without any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.

For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.

[Samuli]

Thanks, Mike and CRobledo. I missed that part, and didn't use the correct keywords when searching the guide.

[thaX]

Not that the lower seasons no longer has the +1 add on because of this.

[thaX]

Cripes... I meant to say "Note" and I see no way to edit posts.

[Majuba]

I *had* thought that if the group's APL was out-of-subtier in Season 4+, then the whole group got out-of-subtier gold for playing the middle difficulty. I take it that is not the case?

e.g. 4,5,5,5,6, APL 5, plays 6-7 *with* 4 player adjustment due to being out-of-subtier. What gold does the level 6 get? (I thought O-o-S, but looks like it is 6-7).

Edit: I found what made me think that... John said it at PaizoCon in the seminar. May/probably changed:

John Compton, PaizoCon wrote:

If you are APL 3, and you have four players, then you will be playing the low sub-tier, w/out a four-player adjustment. If you are six players [sic], then you would be doing the high sub-tier, w/ the four player adjustment. In either case, you will be getting the out-of-subtier gold. ... That is our answer for it right now. If you fall in the natural sub-tiers, then you do those as normal. The out-of-subtier is effectively, there is no question as to what we are going to play. We feel we have created four virtual sub-tiers that people can play...

[Kyle Baird]

6-7

[Mystic Lemur]

You only get Out of Subtier gold if your character is playing out of their normal subtier. A level 3 in a 1-5 is, by definition, out of subtier no matter if they play 1-2 or 4-5. The gold received at the end is calculated for each character based on their level, not the average level of the group.

[FLite]

6-7, he is playing in tier

[Majuba]

FLite wrote:

6-7, he is playing in tier

Well, yes and no. Is a level 6 playing in-tier if he has 6 people in his party, but is facing challenges for 4 players?

Clearly it seems the decision was "yes", but there was a question at some point I think. I'm good either way. This way is infinitely simpler, if not quite as elegant.

[FLite]

he is facing the challenges for him plus 3 6th level characters, but he has 4 4-5th level players, so it balances.

[Derek Weil]

Is this rule retroactive to all seasons? I'm in a season 3 PbP game now with a level 3 character, playing down. The game will certainly finish after the 14th. Do I then get the out-of-subtier bump? Or is this only for season 5?

Also, if our APL is exactly 3, do we need to be playing up with 6 now?

(True APL 2 +1 for having six).

[John Compton]

Derek Weil wrote:

Is this rule retroactive to all seasons? I'm in a season 3 PbP game now with a level 3 character, playing down. The game will certainly finish after the 14th. Do I then get the out-of-subtier bump? Or is this only for season 5?

Also, if our APL is exactly 3, do we need to be playing up with 6 now?

(True APL 2 +1 for having six).

My understanding (and regarding this nuance I am not the final authority) is that you have until September 30th to finish play-by-post and similar extended format games under the old guidelines. This similar to what was done when the sanctioned module format changed from multiple tier to single tier.

[Fromper]

Related question: This applies to all scenarios played after August 14, regardless of when they were published, right?

So for instance, if I play a level 6 PC in subtier 8-9 of "Our Lady of Silver" (a 5-9 adventure from season 0) on August 19, then I'd get gold based on the average of the tiers, not just the higher tier gold, right?

[thejeff]

Fromper wrote:

Related question: This applies to all scenarios played after August 14, regardless of when they were published, right?

So for instance, if I play a level 6 PC in subtier 8-9 of "Our Lady of Silver" (a 5-9 adventure from season 0) on August 19, then I'd get gold based on the average of the tiers, not just the higher tier gold, right?

Yes. Remember that the rules for playing up/down have changed as well.

[Belafon]

Does the out of subtier gold apply 100% even if the party does not receive all the loot normally available?

So to give an example: (The values come from a real scenario which I'm not going to name.) Tier 7-11, 3 level 7s and a level 10 playing, so they play at subtier 7-8. 7-8 max gold is 4,398. 10-11 max gold is 7,703. So the 10-11 player would have a max of 6,050 gold.

A) The final BBEG has loot worth a total of 2,443 at subtier 7-8. If for whatever reason the party misses this loot - and only this loot - we should deduct that amount from the max value (Guide page 35, step 5). So the level 7 players get 1,955 for completing the scenario. But the level 10 gets 3,607?

B) The party wipes out in the first encounter. The 7s die, the 10 runs away. 0 experience, 0 prestige. For the level 7s that would be be 0 gold as well. But if we just deduct from the max, the level 10 would still get 1,652 gold.

Correct?

[Jiggy]

I can't look at the Guide on this computer, but I seem to recall it saying that you start with a PC's gold reward (either for the tier, or out-of-subtier) and then subtract the specified amounts for any failed encounters/challenges.

[CRobledo]

Jiggy wrote:

I can't look at the Guide on this computer, but I seem to recall it saying that you start with a PC's gold reward (either for the tier, or out-of-subtier) and then subtract the specified amounts for any failed encounters/challenges.

This was my reading as well.

[Belafon]

CRobledo wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

I can't look at the Guide on this computer, but I seem to recall it saying that you start with a PC's gold reward (either for the tier, or out-of-subtier) and then subtract the specified amounts for any failed encounters/challenges.

This was my reading as well.

Mine as well (obviously). It just seems a little off to me that if the party accomplishes nothing some people might still receive gold just because of their level.

Hmmm... maybe this represents the Society as an organization paying an "escort stipend" to more experienced adventurers to protect the weaker members and therefore raise the chances of finding important artifacts and information.

[FLite]

Fromper, yes, the rules explicitly state that they apply to season 0+ scenarios.

[thejeff]

Jiggy wrote:

I can't look at the Guide on this computer, but I seem to recall it saying that you start with a PC's gold reward (either for the tier, or out-of-subtier) and then subtract the specified amounts for any failed encounters/challenges.

That seems like it could break: Either a party playing lower subtier loses all gold and the OoST character still gets some - where (X < Y) (X-X + X-Y)/2 is still positive.

Or if the party is playing the higher subtier and loses one major encounter, the OoST character could lose all gold or even go negative - where (X > Y) (X-X + X-Y)/2 is negative.

Obviously the correct thing to do is subtract the gold missed from each subtier as if it had been missed at that subtier and then average the results.
Total Gold for high subtier = X
Gold for missed encounter at high subtier = X1

Total Gold for low subtier = Y
Gold for missed encounter at low subtier = Y1

OoST character receives ((X-X1)+(Y-Y1))/2
The only question is whether thats too complicated to do at the table.

[graypark]

thejeff wrote:

Obviously the correct thing to do is subtract the gold missed from each subtier as if it had been missed at that subtier and then average the results.

Actually, I believe that would be incorrect.

The new Guide wrote:

If the PC’s level is not within the subtier played (such as a 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-level character in Subtier 4–5), circle the Out-of-Subtier gold value or calculate the Out-of-Subtier value for Seasons 0–4 by taking the average of both subtiers and rounding down. Write this value beside area F and circle it. If the PCs failed to earn any of the rewards listed for an encounter, deduct the amount listed for the applicable subtier from the value circled in area F. If the resulting value is negative, use 0 instead.

[thejeff]

graypark wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Obviously the correct thing to do is subtract the gold missed from each subtier as if it had been missed at that subtier and then average the results.

Actually, I believe that would be incorrect.

The new Guide wrote:

If the PC’s level is not within the subtier played (such as a 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-level character in Subtier 4–5), circle the Out-of-Subtier gold value or calculate the Out-of-Subtier value for Seasons 0–4 by taking the average of both subtiers and rounding down. Write this value beside area F and circle it. If the PCs failed to earn any of the rewards listed for an encounter, deduct the amount listed for the applicable subtier from the value circled in area F. If the resulting value is negative, use 0 instead.

I didn't mean "correct" as in "conforming to the rules", but as in "mathematically correct". The way that would keep the base intent of the OoST character getting the average value as well as avoid the edge cases where he would get some from a completely failed mission or none from a partially successful one.

Apparently they made the decision that the better way would add more complexity than value. Which may well be a good decision.

[Belafon]

Just had a thought and looked at it from the other direction. In my example above, let's say there are 3 level 11s and one level 8. So they play 10-11, and the level 8 player can get a maximum of 6050 gold.

At high tier the final BBEG has 4,921 gp. There's a previous encounter worth 1,419 gp. So if they miss both of these, the gold for character level is:

11: 1,363 (7,703 - 4,921 - 1,419 = 1,363)
8: 0 (6,050 - 4,921 - 1,419 = less than 0)

Here's the relevant text from page 35 of the Aug 5, 2013 version of the Guide:

Quote:

If the PC’s level is not within the subtier played (such as a 1st-, 2nd-, or 3rd-level character in Subtier 4–5), circle the Out-of-Subtier gold value or calculate the Out-of-Subtier value for Seasons 0–4 by taking the average of both subtiers and rounding down. Write this value beside area F and circle it. This value represents the total gold piece value a character may receive for defeating all enemies and finding all treasure in a scenario. . . If the PCs failed to earn any of the rewards listed for an encounter, deduct the amount listed for the applicable subtier from the value circled in area F. If the resulting value is negative, use 0 instead. Place the result of this calculation in the shaded GP Gained field and initial the adjacent box (Q).

So the takeaway is:

-A character playing down can get money despite not succeeding in any tasks or encounters.
-A character playing up can get no money despite succeeding on some encounters where in-tier characters do get gold.

I don't know that I'd really consider any of this something that needs to be "fixed" as these are hopefully fairly rare cases. And the most obvious fix is - a lot of math. Just something to take note of.

[thejeff]

It's not really that much math. Assuming those numbers and assuming the rough ratio holds:
Subtier Total Final Other Missed
10-11 7703 4921 1419
7-8 4397 2805 809

*:

(7703+4397)/2 = 6050. 6050 = 0.57*7703. 2805 = 0.57*4921, 809= 0.57*1419. Those numbers require a little math to come up with, but they'll be provided for you.

So instead of 6050 - 4921 - 1419, you also do the lower tier calculation:
4397-2805-809 = 783, then average that and the high tier calculation, which you've already done. (1363+783)/2 = 1073

So it's basically one average more than you'd normally need to do. And in pre-5 scenarios, you'll need to do an average anyway to get the base OoST amount.

Again, I know this isn't the specified way to do it, but it's not really that hard.

[thaX]

This is a simplification of my Halfvies plan I had on the suggestion thread, so I am happy about this.

"We are so happy, we do the dance of joy..."

[John Compton]

Belafon wrote:

So the takeaway is:

-A character playing down can get money despite not succeeding in any tasks or encounters.
-A character playing up can get no money despite succeeding on some encounters where in-tier characters do get gold.

I don't know that I'd really consider any of this something that needs to be "fixed" as these are hopefully fairly rare cases. And the most obvious fix is - a lot of math. Just something to take note of.

Belafon, in reading over your remarks and those of others from this thread (and probably other threads, though there are too many going around for me to pin down), I realized that at least one Out of Subtier issue could be corrected fairly easily. In the rewards section of each encounter, there is now an Out of Subtier entry in addition to those entries for established tiers. Hopefully this will cut down on some of the corner-case math.

[thejeff]

John Compton wrote:

Belafon wrote:

So the takeaway is:

-A character playing down can get money despite not succeeding in any tasks or encounters.
-A character playing up can get no money despite succeeding on some encounters where in-tier characters do get gold.

I don't know that I'd really consider any of this something that needs to be "fixed" as these are hopefully fairly rare cases. And the most obvious fix is - a lot of math. Just something to take note of.

Belafon, in reading over your remarks and those of others from this thread (and probably other threads, though there are too many going around for me to pin down), I realized that at least one Out of Subtier issue could be corrected fairly easily. In the rewards section of each encounter, there is now an Out of Subtier entry in addition to those entries for established tiers. Hopefully this will cut down on some of the corner-case math.

Oh, that's nice.

Thanks.

[Belafon]

John Compton wrote:

Belafon, in reading over your remarks and those of others from this thread (and probably other threads, though there are too many going around for me to pin down), I realized that at least one Out of Subtier issue could be corrected fairly easily. In the rewards section of each encounter, there is now an Out of Subtier entry in addition to those entries for established tiers. Hopefully this will cut down on some of the corner-case math.

Sounds good. What's the official word for season 0-4 scenarios? Do the math?

[Patrick Harris @ MU]

thaX wrote:

This is a simplification of my Halfvies plan I had on the suggestion thread, so I am happy about this.

"We are so happy, we do the dance of joy..."

NUMFAR! Do the dance of joy!

[John Compton]

Belafon wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Belafon, in reading over your remarks and those of others from this thread (and probably other threads, though there are too many going around for me to pin down), I realized that at least one Out of Subtier issue could be corrected fairly easily. In the rewards section of each encounter, there is now an Out of Subtier entry in addition to those entries for established tiers. Hopefully this will cut down on some of the corner-case math.

Sounds good. What's the official word for season 0-4 scenarios? Do the math?

For now, but I might be able to compile a document that notes the Out of Subtier values for each encounter (e.g. Encounter A1: 565 gp, Encounter C2: 1,137 gp, etc.) before too long.

[Cold Napalm]

Well calculating out of tier missed gold isn't TOO bad. Just average the high and low and subtract that. Fortunately, missing encounters is FAIRLY rare around here so it shouldn't be adding too much math.

Hey John, if your gonna be doing an OOT value for each encounter, can you add in the OOT value for each of the old scenario as well? I mean might as well to save some people some math right? ;) .

[John Compton]

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well calculating out of tier missed gold isn't TOO bad. Just average the high and low and subtract that. Fortunately, missing encounters is FAIRLY rare around here so it shouldn't be adding too much math.

Hey John, if your gonna be doing an OOT value for each encounter, can you add in the OOT value for each of the old scenario as well? I mean might as well to save some people some math right? ;) .

I can make a note of that. In the short term, my insidious campaign of promoting basic arithmetic continues.

[Drogon]

John Compton wrote:

In the short term, my insidious campaign of promoting basic arithmetic continues.

You expect us gamers to do math? You're a cruel man, John...

[Mistwalker]

Shakes his head.

Some of the 9 year olds whom I am running through Jade Regent were...well I suppose I could say "dismayed" when they realized that they had to do math with every roll.

Even more so when my 6 year old, who also plays, demonstrated that she is better at math than some of the 9 year olds.

Keep up the good, sneaky work John.

[Eric Clingenpeel]

I run monthly pfs for my cousin & her family, and recently their youngest started playing with us, and it might take a while, but it's great seeing him quickly add up his rolls. :)

[Drogon]

John Compton wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well calculating out of tier missed gold isn't TOO bad. Just average the high and low and subtract that. Fortunately, missing encounters is FAIRLY rare around here so it shouldn't be adding too much math.

Hey John, if your gonna be doing an OOT value for each encounter, can you add in the OOT value for each of the old scenario as well? I mean might as well to save some people some math right? ;) .

I can make a note of that. In the short term, my insidious campaign of promoting basic arithmetic continues.

(X+Y)/2 = Z

.
.
.

Gasp!

I've just realized how insidious this actually is. 'tisn't basic arithmetic, at all! It's algebra...

[John Compton]

Drogon wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well calculating out of tier missed gold isn't TOO bad. Just average the high and low and subtract that. Fortunately, missing encounters is FAIRLY rare around here so it shouldn't be adding too much math.

Hey John, if your gonna be doing an OOT value for each encounter, can you add in the OOT value for each of the old scenario as well? I mean might as well to save some people some math right? ;) .

I can make a note of that. In the short term, my insidious campaign of promoting basic arithmetic continues.

(X+Y)/2 = Z

.
.
.

Gasp!

I've just realized how insidious this actually is. 'tisn't basic arithmetic, at all! It's algebra...

That's how I trick people into doing algebra; I tell them that it's something familiar and cuddly like arithmetic.

By Season 6 calculus will be necessary for determining one's gp earnings, and we'll be using trigonmetric ratios for calculating spell DCs.

[Benrislove]

THATS IT, Alegbra? i'm done. I'm going to go play baulders gate. :-P

[thejeff]

Drogon wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well calculating out of tier missed gold isn't TOO bad. Just average the high and low and subtract that. Fortunately, missing encounters is FAIRLY rare around here so it shouldn't be adding too much math.

Hey John, if your gonna be doing an OOT value for each encounter, can you add in the OOT value for each of the old scenario as well? I mean might as well to save some people some math right? ;) .

I can make a note of that. In the short term, my insidious campaign of promoting basic arithmetic continues.

(X+Y)/2 = Z

.
.
.

Gasp!

I've just realized how insidious this actually is. 'tisn't basic arithmetic, at all! It's algebra...

That's only really algebra if you know Y & Z and are trying to solve for X. Or so I vaguely remember. It's been a long time, I forget where the dividing lines are.

[FLite]

John Compton wrote:

Drogon wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Cold Napalm wrote:

Well calculating out of tier missed gold isn't TOO bad. Just average the high and low and subtract that. Fortunately, missing encounters is FAIRLY rare around here so it shouldn't be adding too much math.

Hey John, if your gonna be doing an OOT value for each encounter, can you add in the OOT value for each of the old scenario as well? I mean might as well to save some people some math right? ;) .

I can make a note of that. In the short term, my insidious campaign of promoting basic arithmetic continues.

I've just realized how insidious this actually is. 'tisn't basic arithmetic, at all! It's algebra...

That's how I trick people into doing algebra; I tell them that it's something familiar and cuddly like arithmetic.

By Season 6 calculus will be necessary for determining one's gp earnings, and we'll be using trigonmetric ratios for calculating spell DCs.

When do we get Diff Equations, I miss needing them in games. You could use them to calculate encumbrance.

[Cold Napalm]

Mistwalker wrote:

Shakes his head.

Some of the 9 year olds whom I am running through Jade Regent were...well I suppose I could say "dismayed" when they realized that they had to do math with every roll.

Even more so when my 6 year old, who also plays, demonstrated that she is better at math than some of the 9 year olds.

Keep up the good, sneaky work John.

Hahaha...you know what, I don't mind doing extra math. I can do it REAL quick so it doesn't slow me down one tick. That said, I have seen some GM who will get utterly bogged down by this. And I mean full on grown adults that can't do basic math without pulling a calculator.

[Todd Lower]

Cold Napalm wrote:

Mistwalker wrote:

Shakes his head.

Some of the 9 year olds whom I am running through Jade Regent were...well I suppose I could say "dismayed" when they realized that they had to do math with every roll.

Even more so when my 6 year old, who also plays, demonstrated that she is better at math than some of the 9 year olds.

Keep up the good, sneaky work John.

Hahaha...you know what, I don't mind doing extra math. I can do it REAL quick so it doesn't slow me down one tick. That said, I have seen some GM who will get utterly bogged down by this. And I mean full on grown adults that can't do basic math without pulling a calculator.

I often wished that I had brought a calculator for my two weapon fighter. 5 swings per round = a lot of little numbers to keep ordered so that the GM didn't have to.