Pathfinder Middle-earth? (Would you point me to the existing efforts?)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Would people help me by posting links to previous threads and fansites which discuss or depict how Middle-earth could be run with Pathfinder RPG rules?

Ideally, I'm looking for a conversion from someone who is familiar with the vast body of Pathfinder classes, spells, and monsters, so that the most "Tolkienian" features could be chosen.

Thanks for any help.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The problem is that people are looking for something that combines two completely antithetical themes.

Pathfinder and it's D+D forebears are about wargaming and flashy magic.

Middle Earth has the wargaming part down, but it's style of magic is totally opposite of what's built into the game. When you're playing Middle Earth a balanced Pathfinder group is totally against what you'd fine thematically. the only Pathfinder classes which would really fit in are Rangers, Rogues,and Fighters. None of the others really belong because Middle Earth isn't a setting for spellcasters. The few casters in the setting are singular, epic individuals. Or like Gandalf, hardly cast at all.


Okay OP, this will take a bit of research but...

Go to your Google search

Enter in... The Alexandrian, Calibrating Your Expectations

Read that article

Then look up something called 3.5 E6, Pathfinder E6, or Pathfinder E8.

[Basically what you're looking for is games that start at Level 1, and cap at Level 6-8]

Hope that helps. :)


LazarX wrote:

The problem is that people are looking for something that combines two completely antithetical themes.

Pathfinder and it's D+D forebears are about wargaming and flashy magic.

Middle Earth has the wargaming part down, but it's style of magic is totally opposite of what's built into the game. When you're playing Middle Earth a balanced Pathfinder group is totally against what you'd fine thematically. the only Pathfinder classes which would really fit in are Rangers, Rogues,and Fighters. None of the others really belong because Middle Earth isn't a setting for spellcasters. The few casters in the setting are singular, epic individuals. Or like Gandalf, hardly cast at all.

but there were a lot of magical items and magical effects that weren't spells.

hell, the party was walking on monty haul mode they had so much magical loot.


The Alexandrian essay is often taken as gospel, but it's actually pretty much complete bunk.

Middle Earth is a nonplanar world. That alone explains nearly all the high level magic that isn't present.

There are no other planes so there are no summons.

There is no astral plain so there is no teleportation.

There are no planes to use as material sources for creation spells so no creation.

We do have 5th level transmutations and extremely high level epic charm in the Lay of Leithan (shape as medium magical beast and put an entire dungeon including demons and Morgoth to sleep). We have the spell that is the original for Fire Seeds, a level 6 druid spell in FotR. We have at least three examples of lone heroes killing huge dragons (minimum CR 13 for Scatha, minimum CR 14 for Smaug*, and Glaurung could be modeled as a Crag Linnorm at CR 14). Level 6 or 8 non-casters do not kill CR 13-14 dragons without aid.

If there's a level cap it's 12, and it doesn't apply to everyone.

* Smaug was huge when he came to the mountain and held it long enough to move from the young adult category to adult.

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Removed an unhelpful post and the response.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:

The Alexandrian essay is often taken as gospel, but it's actually pretty much complete bunk.

Middle Earth is a nonplanar world. That alone explains nearly all the high level magic that isn't present.

There are no other planes so there are no summons.

There is no astral plain so there is no teleportation.

There are no planes to use as material sources for creation spells so no creation.

We do have 5th level transmutations and extremely high level epic charm in the Lay of Leithan (shape as medium magical beast and put an entire dungeon including demons and Morgoth to sleep). We have the spell that is the original for Fire Seeds, a level 6 druid spell in FotR. We have at least three examples of lone heroes killing huge dragons (minimum CR 13 for Scatha, minimum CR 14 for Smaug*, and Glaurung could be modeled as a Crag Linnorm at CR 14). Level 6 or 8 non-casters do not kill CR 13-14 dragons without aid.

If there's a level cap it's 12, and it doesn't apply to everyone.

* Smaug was huge when he came to the mountain and held it long enough to move from the young adult category to adult.

Middle Earth is more like the Story driven games of Cubicle 7 (who publishes the current Dr. Who rpg). As many of the epic deeds are one shot affairs. Smaug for example is killed by an epic arrow shot by someone who was told by a bird exactly where to shoot, not by repeatable character mechanics. (If a second Smaug had shown up, Bard and just about everyone else would have been totally screwed.) Almost all of the items, and deeds, of Middle Earth are of this one of a kind non repeatable nature.


LazarX wrote:


Middle Earth is more like the Story driven games of Cubicle 7 (who publishes the current Dr. Who rpg).

In fact, more like The One Ring from Cubicle 7. :)


I think of the setting as having lots of "ritual magic".

Finding "spellcasters" (people like Gandalf who can set pinecones on fire or create blinding flashes of flame) are rare, but many individuals can perform rituals.

These include making magic items (elves and dwarves often make these), scrying (or at least operating scrying devices), long-term healing (Aragorn and Elrond's magical healing, as there's no magical in-combat healing), animating the dead, creating magical barriers (the "Girdle" of Melian) and so forth. It's possible only among humans, only Dunedain (humans with just a little elven and divine blood) can actually perform any magic at all.

Because the PoV characters know nothing (or next to nothing) about magic, they're not really sure if that elf climbing rope magically untied itself, or whether it just happened to come loose at a really convenient time.

Such a setting could use a new class that's pretty similar to Eberron's artificer, but with much slower magic. Perhaps only as an NPC class, as this is starting to sound boring to play. :(


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Other systems might do things better out of the box. However, it's not all that hard to tweak Pathfinder. The main thing is dealing with Middle-Earth's morality, particularly with regard to magic. All magic comes from the Source, and using it frivalously or selfishly causes a slow slide into madness and, very often, Evil. Conjuration spells all gain the Evil descriptor, as that would be vanity in imitating the Source; many lower-level spells, such as acid splash, would be changed to Transmutation spells that use a material to create the desired effect. Acid splash, for instance, might require a flask of water that contains alkaline or hydrochloric acid.

You can use, mostly without alteration, Barbarian, Bard, Fighter, Fighter, Paladin, and Rogue. Note that Bards and Rangers, and Rogues with spell-like abilities, would be rare as NPCs, because spellcasters are comparatively rare.

True Wizards, as in Gandalf, are aasimar who generally resemble humans or grand elves. They are actually immortal beings made flesh, and benefit from specialized feats, traits, and arcana befitting their nature. They are probably better represented as Sorcerers of the Arcane Bloodline rather than members of the wizard class, as they are charismatic, powerful, and very focused. However, they may multiclass; Gandalf might have a level of bard, Radagast may actually be a druidic Mystic Theurge. Other spellcasters are generally known as magicians, conjurers, sorcerers, or necromancers, although the distinction is not known to most people.

There are no generalist members of the wizard class, only specialists. "Good" wizards choose conjuration as an opposition school.

Sorcerers generally choose the Arcane, Destined, or Fey bloodline, the latter reflecting a connection to entities such as the ents, Bombadil, Goldberry, and the like. There is no Celestial bloodline, as it would be contradictory. Most sorcerers of the Abyssal and Infernal bloodline probably perished in the last days of the First Age, along with most Draconic sorcerers, if there are such things. Sorcerers of the Undead bloodline are often called necromancers; although most serve Sauron directly, as devotees of Morgoth, sorcerers of the undead bloodline tend to be an unruly and independent lot. Although fairly rare, they are still the type of evil spellcaster most likely to be faced by heroes in Middle-Earth.

Clerics and druids are simply a type of magician, in Middle-Earth. Clerics, with their ability to channel energy, are probably devotees of the Valar. Druids are mystics who venerate the Source directly. Paladins are champions of the Valar; it may or may not be a requirement to be a high elf or a human Dundedain descent. Although the most famous paladin of his age, Aragorn is a high level ranger with only one or two levels in the paladin class.


Gandalf is not a PC wizard who started at 1st level and adventured his way up to high level. Gandalf is one of the Maiar and as such is really a minor godling or angel who was sent to Middle Earth to oppose Sauron. He is a Celestial being, more akin to a Solar who has taken the form of a man, not a human who has studied magic. The power Gandalf has is innate and not something he attained. The same is true of the other Istari (Saruman and the other Wizards) and for Sauron himself who was the lieutenant of Morgoth (basically the god of evil).

The problem with using Pathfinder for Middle Earth is that the setting assumptions are off. You can do it, but in order to achieve the feel of the setting and to have it make any sense you will need to take Pathfinder and house rule it so much that it will almost be a new game. I am not aware of anyone who has done this work, but if you do decide to take it on I would be interested in seeing the results.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

What you are saying is literally true, BiggDawg. However, Gandalf can be represented as a PC by establishing that he gradually reveals his powers according to the dictates he operates under.

This is interesting:

http://pathfinderd20merp.blogspot.com/

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Countdown to someone posting that they think Tolkien is boring and elves-n-orcs are sooooo overdone....

Or maybe that was what got baleeted.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Something else for Middle-Earth's Third Age I thought of: you need a Faded template that takes a powerful creatures and reduces its CR by 2, reflecting that its arrogance and weariness have weakened it after centuries of stagnation. You could also use lower CR monsters and apply the giant template liberally on Medium and Large creatures to create some of ME's big nasties.

Orcs are orcs; uruk-hai are hobgoblins. Half-orcs exist, but they are small in number, and are all elite, classed NPCs in the employ of Saruman, who probably created them through sorcery.


Thanks for the resources, ShoulderPatch and RJGrady. That's what I'm looking for.

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