Improved Natural Armor

[tcharleschapman]

According to Hero Lab, Improved Natural Armor is illegal in PFS. However, can I take it for my Paladin's Holy Mount? That seems fair to me.

[Elvis Aron Manypockets]

Known bug - ignore the warning & send the developers a comment.

[SCPRedMage]

I've reported it before, and the response I got was:

Lone Wolf Development Support wrote:

The allowed resources page's text says "...unless specifically granted by another source.". Granted means granted as a bonus feat. The cases you cite only allow those feats as options for those characters. Since the characters still have to purchase them normally, they are still subject to the pathfinder society restrictions on those feats.

The "granted" text is there to cover situations like the Multiattack feat that an animal companion gains as a bonus feat at 9th level. They do gain that feat, but an animal companion could not select Multiattack as one of its feat selections.

So yeah, they are interpreting the Additional Resources entry for Bestiary feats to mean that you cannot take Improved Natural Armor unless it explicitly appears as a bonus feat option, and then only as a bonus feat. Since the list of feats animal companions can select isn't for a bonus feat, but rather a restriction on what they can take for their standard level-based feats, that means they believe you cannot select the Bestiary feats explicitly called out as available to Animal Companions in the Core Rulebook.

To convince them otherwise, we'd need an official clarification that indicates whether or not animal companions can actual take those feats.

[BigNorseWolf]

SCPRedMage wrote:

I've reported it before, and the response I got was:

Lone Wolf Development Support wrote:

The allowed resources page's text says "...unless specifically granted by another source.". Granted means granted as a bonus feat. The cases you cite only allow those feats as options for those characters. Since the characters still have to purchase them normally, they are still subject to the pathfinder society restrictions on those feats.

The "granted" text is there to cover situations like the Multiattack feat that an animal companion gains as a bonus feat at 9th level. They do gain that feat, but an animal companion could not select Multiattack as one of its feat selections.

So yeah, they are interpreting the Additional Resources entry for Bestiary feats to mean that you cannot take Improved Natural Armor unless it explicitly appears as a bonus feat option, and then only as a bonus feat. Since the list of feats animal companions can select isn't for a bonus feat, but rather a restriction on what they can take for their standard level-based feats, that means they believe you cannot select the Bestiary feats explicitly called out as available to Animal Companions in the Core Rulebook.

To convince them otherwise, we'd need an official clarification that indicates whether or not animal companions can actual take those feats.

Like this?

The intent with this expansion is to bring PFS "houserules" more in line with the baseline game. Thus, Hyrum and I do not feel it necessary to make this restriction. If you have a class feature granted from any legal source that uses these feats, you may do so. This means that PCs can't take Improved Natural Armor, but their animal companions can. As we continue to release more archetypes and PrCs and such with each subsequent rulebook, having this extra rule to consider with each and every one makes more work for us and serves as a barrier for new players trying to understand the differences between PFS and the core rules as written.-Mark Moreland

[SCPRedMage]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

*thread-fu*

Yeah, that'd do it.

[Elvis Aron Manypockets]

I can't even add it to a Druid's animal companion in HL without the warning, even though Improved Natural Armor is listed in the Core Rule book (page 53 Animal Feats) as one of the legal feats for his AC to take. And all of CRB IS legal for play (with a very few exceptions) so no additional ruling should even be necessary for a Druid's AC to take it.

[SCPRedMage]

It's in the list of feats animal companions can take, but the feat isn't actually IN the Core Rulebook, so the availability of stuff from the Core Rulebook doesn't apply to Improved Natural armor.

Likewise, if a hypothetical class from hypothetical book A listed a feat from hypothetical book B amongst a list of bonus feat choices, the availability rules for book A don't matter for whether or not you can select that feat; what matters is the availability of the book(s) where the feat is actually printed.

[Elvis Aron Manypockets]

Maybe a little common sense would work, as in the CRB specifically states a druid's AC can take the feat and specific trumps general. I don't see how anyone can interpret that in any other way without convoluted logic.

[SCPRedMage]

And the Additional Resources rules are campaign-specific rules that trump the general rules of the base game.

Here's the important thing, and I've said this before: the feats in question do NOT appear in the Core Rulebook, they are only mentioned. Since the feats themselves are not in the Core Rulebook, the fact that (nearly) all of the Core Rulebook is legal has no impact on whether they are allowed.

Once upon a time, Bestiary feats weren't allowed in PFS organized play, at all, animal companion or not. The thread BigNorseWolf linked to was a discussion that popped up to discuss the change to the current rules.

As of now, animal companions CAN take the Bestiary feats listed under the Animal Companion class feature.

When I originally reported the issue, I did not have an official clarification to back me up. If you report it now, with the link BigNorseWolf provided, it'll be fixed.