Is it just me or does 6d8 Negative Energy seem a bit high for a CR8 monster?
Am I missing something here?
That's only 27 points of damage on average. A dire tiger will deal more, especially when pouncing.
A giant that is a CR 8 can also do more damage than that, and elementals are not far behind, and that is before power attack.
To add to this, lots of dice often look scary/great until you start looking at the average damage amount (and the more dice, the more likely you'll be close to the average).
I think the touch attack part is being overlooked a little. A giant can out damage it In a single hit with power attack, if it hits. The stone giant for example also has +16 to hit but doesn't target touch ac. Power attack +14 for avg 27 or avg 27 damage with +16 touch. So just based on damage it may be a bit high.
Looking over the stats, it does seem pretty vicious (even though the Stone Giant gets two attacks). Flying, fly-by-attack, spell-likes (including dimensional door), incorporeal, spell resistance, status effect on attack, etc. Somehow Rock Throwing and a little more HP doesn't seem to make up for it.
The only advantage you could take is that Protection from Evil shuts it down. Which is not so great a boon. Seems like the CR is undervalued.
I'd compare it to a Greater Shadow, +11 touch (1d8 STRENGTH), 58 vs. 90 hit points, Shadow is undead so it is easier to counter. No spell-likes, no SR, 2 less AC, etc.
The Animate Dream has an AC of a CR 7, CR 7-8 damage (but a Curse added to the attack), save DCs of a CR 12 on the primary and the spell-likes are the DCs of a CR 9-10 (primary). If you figure the Incorporeal is worth 50% extra HP, then it's HP is that of a CR 10. The Spell-likes are good too (Confusion, Deep Slumber, Dimension Door, Nightmare, Phantasmal Killer -- ok, PK is midling). Number of Hit Dice is that of a CR 9. SR is for a CR 8, admittedly.
Overall, I'd say this is not at all a CR 8 creature. It's at least a CR 9, and probably 10. Hmm, CR 11 is not out of the question, but probably a bit much. I need to get to bed so I can't compare it to a CR 11.
Still Learning wrote: I think the touch attack part is being overlooked a little. A giant can out damage it In a single hit with power attack, if it hits. The stone giant for example also has +16 to hit but doesn't target touch ac. Power attack +14 for avg 27 or avg 27 damage with +16 touch. So just based on damage it may be a bit high. A fireball doesn't require any attack roll. A 9th level caster (which is also CR 8) would do 9d6 damage, or an average of 31.5 damage, roughly 16 on a successful save. To the whole party. He could also get 2 rays from Scorching Ray, for a total of 8d6 (28 damage average), or 48 damage total if maximized. His Maximized Shocking Grasp does 30 damage.
A CR 8 warrior type could have a strength of 24 (18 base, +2 racial bonus, +2 from level ups, +2 from a magic item) for a modifier of +7. Wielding a greatsword, thats 2d6+10 damage per attack, and he gets 2 of those for an average of 34 damage. Not a touch attack, but deals more damage then the Animate Dream per round (if both attacks hit).
And the stone giant also gets two attacks. Each does 21 damage on average (42 total with both) without power attack. With Power Attack, the damage increases to 2d8+21 (30 damage on average), or 60 damage total if both attacks hit. (Remember, Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon gives 3 damage per -1 attack, not +2 damage). Even if only 1 of his attacks hits, he is dealing more damage then the Animate Dream. IF both hit, he deals double the damage as the Animate Dream.
It seems the monsters damage is withing reason when compared to some other creatures of its CR.
Wow thanks for all the replies - so in short it seems it is high - but not insanely high :-)
The damage itself is not high at all. It is more like all the other abilities together make the CR a bit low, imho.
Drachasor wrote: Looking over the stats, it does seem pretty vicious (even though the Stone Giant gets two attacks). Flying, fly-by-attack, spell-likes (including dimensional door), incorporeal, spell resistance, status effect on attack, etc. Somehow Rock Throwing and a little more HP doesn't seem to make up for it.
The only advantage you could take is that Protection from Evil shuts it down. Which is not so great a boon. Seems like the CR is undervalued.
I'd compare it to a Greater Shadow, +11 touch (1d8 STRENGTH), 58 vs. 90 hit points, Shadow is undead so it is easier to counter. No spell-likes, no SR, 2 less AC, etc.
The Animate Dream has an AC of a CR 7, CR 7-8 damage (but a Curse added to the attack), save DCs of a CR 12 on the primary and the spell-likes are the DCs of a CR 9-10 (primary). If you figure the Incorporeal is worth 50% extra HP, then it's HP is that of a CR 10. The Spell-likes are good too (Confusion, Deep Slumber, Dimension Door, Nightmare, Phantasmal Killer -- ok, PK is midling). Number of Hit Dice is that of a CR 9. SR is for a CR 8, admittedly.
Overall, I'd say this is not at all a CR 8 creature. It's at least a CR 9, and probably 10. Hmm, CR 11 is not out of the question, but probably a bit much. I need to get to bed so I can't compare it to a CR 11.
That greater shadow drains your strength(1d8) with no save. I would rather deal with the animate dream. Those SLA are limited, and I would expect for it to be dead before it got to use all of them. That stone giant if power attacking can do over 50 points of damage in one round.
The AD might get up to CR 9, but that is about as much as I would give it.
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Looking over the CR 9 and 10 monsters some more, I'd go with CR 9 as well. I still think it is a fairly nasty CR 9. Probably opens with Confusion, then it can give a fatigue and wisdom draning curse on its attacks. Phantasmal Killer if it sees a rogue and slumber if confusion didn't handle a warrior.
Unlike a Greater Shadow it has a lot more capability to really disorganize and mess up the party and it can take more of a beating too.
Jeraa wrote: Still Learning wrote: I think the touch attack part is being overlooked a little. A giant can out damage it In a single hit with power attack, if it hits. The stone giant for example also has +16 to hit but doesn't target touch ac. Power attack +14 for avg 27 or avg 27 damage with +16 touch. So just based on damage it may be a bit high. A fireball doesn't require any attack roll. A 9th level caster (which is also CR 8) would do 9d6 damage, or an average of 31.5 damage, roughly 16 on a successful save. To the whole party. He could also get 2 rays from Scorching Ray, for a total of 8d6 (28 damage average), or 48 damage total if maximized. His Maximized Shocking Grasp does 30 damage.
A CR 8 warrior type could have a strength of 24 (18 base, +2 racial bonus, +2 from level ups, +2 from a magic item) for a modifier of +7. Wielding a greatsword, thats 2d6+10 damage per attack, and he gets 2 of those for an average of 34 damage. Not a touch attack, but deals more damage then the Animate Dream per round (if both attacks hit).
And the stone giant also gets two attacks. Each does 21 damage on average (42 total with both) without power attack. With Power Attack, the damage increases to 2d8+21 (30 damage on average), or 60 damage total if both attacks hit. (Remember, Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon gives 3 damage per -1 attack, not +2 damage). Even if only 1 of his attacks hits, he is dealing more damage then the Animate Dream. IF both hit, he deals double the damage as the Animate Dream.
It seems the monsters damage is withing reason when compared to some other creatures of its CR.
I think the touch attack is still not being weighted properly in this assessment. That's a pretty big deal. I was also assuming we were comparing to cr8 beastiary critters and not pc class builds which there's no denying can outclass it. Compared to a stock cr8 I think it looks high for a touch attack, that's the focus. Or maybe I'm reading the title too literally, either way good damage.
So the damage is at the very least comparable. But with a touch ac which seems like fail-on-one most of the time. The decent dc wisdom save is also not something I took into account on the damage only assessment.
Also I give the dream tactical superiority with flight and fly by attack. It can kill stone giants all day long cause they can't hit it incorporeal. At the very least use with caution if the party isn't prepared for incorporeal, decent straight damage, and a wisdom drain poison-like effect that takes three consecutive saves while decreasing that same save with each failure.
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