Hello there. I understand that Pathfinder focuses on a European analogue so most of the NPCs and fashions are going to be Eurocentric. That's fine and all but it would be nice to have a bit more diversity.
I mean I was flipping through the Serpent Skull series looking at the pics and even in the AP set in "Africa" had pretty much nothing but white people and snake people. Of the hand full on black people I can find represented in Pathfinder art half of them were dressed as Europeans (Seelah, Vale Temros, etc). It's kind of disheartening. Basically what I'm wondering is there ever going to be any chance of us seeing more then one or two black african looking minis/pawns?
You hold definitely do a search on previous topics in the forum about this if the topic is of interest to you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There actually is a great deal of ethnic diversity in several of the books. Heart of the Jungle has a great deal, as does the NPC codex and the Game Mastery Guide. Also Paths of Prestige, Skull and Shackles, and ISWG
In addition, when having African ethnicities in native garb, you run the risk of people complaining that it's racially offensive. It's a fine line that they walk when drawing people that wear the clothing of their culture. Also, many of the African ethnicities that have been listed are dressed in somewhat proper clothing. Remember that Africa is a huge continent and varying clothing differences. North/West Africa is more Middle Eastern in garb with some African influences, while Central Africa is radically different and probably what you imagine. So, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't for RPGs. For what it's worth, Paizo does a great job at showing non-occidental ethnicities that aren't racial caricatures.
That's true. A lot of designers have a hard time depicting anything other then the "jungle savage" look. If they even bother with anything at all. Africa is indeed as diverse as Europe and it's cultures/styles can be as different from each other as Greeks and Vikings.
While Pathfinder does seem to do a fairly good job presenting the rest of the world in their written sources I'm just hoping for something more. Rather then just an exotic destination it would be nice to have more based around peoples native to the south.
As for depicting people in traditional clothing being offensive it could be argued that putting Africans in European clothing is actually more offensive. It can come off as rather imperialistic. Like even the savages have the good sense to embrace our superior culture.
I dunno really what it comes down to is when looking through the pawn sets I have and the ones that will be coming out in the foreseeable future I find it frustrating to not have more non-euro options. I just hope in the future to have a more diverse set.
That's true. A lot of designers have a hard time depicting anything other then the "jungle savage" look. If they even bother with anything at all. Africa is indeed as diverse as Europe and it's cultures/styles can be as different from each other as Greeks and Vikings.
While Pathfinder does seem to do a fairly good job presenting the rest of the world in their written sources I'm just hoping for something more. Rather then just an exotic destination it would be nice to have more based around peoples native to the south.
As for depicting people in traditional clothing being offensive it could be argued that putting Africans in European clothing is actually more offensive. It can come off as rather imperialistic. Like even the savages have the good sense to embrace our superior culture.
I dunno really what it comes down to is when looking through the pawn sets I have and the ones that will be coming out in the foreseeable future I find it frustrating to not have more non-euro options. I just hope in the future to have a more diverse set.
Well that's the issue with race. Anything can be offensive. People would get offended by Africans in Middle Eastern garb, more Zulu outfits, or European garb. In fact, I have a friend right now from Zimbabwe reading your post and he thinks your "jungle savage" comment was offensive against his culture. No matter what you do, someone is going to get offended.
So Paizo tries and has all of them in there. They have the Africans in European armor, which is actually good because it shows that the cultures intermingle enough for there to be cross cultural mixing. They have Africans in the Middle Eastern-inspired North African garb. Look at the Arclords in Paths of Prestige. And then they have the classic sub-Saharan garb in Heart of the Jungle and other scattered areas. There's a good mix and, of course, they can always add more. Actually, looking at Inner Sea Magic, they have a good deal of mix between the North/Western African clothing and the sub-Saharan garb.
That's why I put it in quotation marks! :p
But ya you're right. No matter what somebody somewhere is going to be offended no matter how benign something is. Which is why they shouldn't worry about offending people. Still I find it frustrating that I don't see the diversity of props for the tabletop that I would like to see. I just want to encourage more diverse miniatures options dagnabit! >.<
Contributor
|
That's true. A lot of designers have a hard time depicting anything other then the "jungle savage" look. If they even bother with anything at all. Africa is indeed as diverse as Europe and it's cultures/styles can be as different from each other as Greeks and Vikings.
While Pathfinder does seem to do a fairly good job presenting the rest of the world in their written sources I'm just hoping for something more. Rather then just an exotic destination it would be nice to have more based around peoples native to the south.
As for depicting people in traditional clothing being offensive it could be argued that putting Africans in European clothing is actually more offensive. It can come off as rather imperialistic. Like even the savages have the good sense to embrace our superior culture.
I dunno really what it comes down to is when looking through the pawn sets I have and the ones that will be coming out in the foreseeable future I find it frustrating to not have more non-euro options. I just hope in the future to have a more diverse set.
There were a lot more black or brown people in medieval and early modern Europe, for a RW analogy, than people realize. But they wore the clothes (or armour) of the culture that surrounded them. Clothes tend to be practical based on the climate they developed in, after all. It's the Europeans who couldn't get the hang of tropical wear.
|
To be fair, the Paizo crew have said that unfortunately artists don't always return what was asked for, and Heart of the Jungle and Serpent's Skull got hit pretty hard by that. Believe me, I was really hoping for some art along those lines too.
But, things got a lot better and more balanced soon after. Inner Sea Magic in particular was a veritible explosion of previously unseen representations of Garund's "great archmage generation" crew(Jatembe is awesome, pass it on). And soon after that a lot more Mwangi-appropriate art started showing up more frequently across the book lines and the blog.
It's understandable that if you're looking for artwork for Mwangi characters* you'd look towards Heart of the Jungle and Serpent's Skull and come back disappointed, but rest assured that artwork is out there. :)
It's understandable that if you're looking for artwork for Mwangi characters* you'd look towards Heart of the Jungle and Serpent's Skull and come back disappointed, but rest assured that artwork is out there. :)
Ya that pretty much sums it up. I went looking for Africa and felt like I was getting Dutch Colony instead. >.<
It's good to hear that there's more out there. To be fair I don't actually own all that many Pathfinder books. Mostly just giving my impressions from flipping through books at the game store. I'll definitely have a look at Inner Sea Magic next time I'm there.
Huh?
Pathfinder's Campaign setting is not really eurocentric at all! Even their pseudo-european regions have a non-european twinge to them.
You've got a game with gunslinging cowboys, mammoth-riding cavemen, jungle-dwelling serpent races, flying carpet bazaars, etc, etc...
The giant metropolis comprising the largest city in the world is decidedly more middle-eastern than European.
I'd say that if you're a huge fanboy for medieval european stuff, it would be hard to find one nation to point to and say "play here!" Well, okay Molthune/Nirmathas, maybe. But they get so little love in the books!
Except for Ezren and Valeros who are both Taldani, every human iconic in the core rulebook is of a different ethnicity. And as far as their outfits go, there are a few that have loosely inspired by european medieval style elements to them, but alltogether they are all a far cry. Even Alain's who i find most reminiscent of anything actually european.
Paizo seems to be doing everything in their power to diversify their cast as much as possible. Not only ethnically but also in terms of sexuality.