Kusarigama question

[Joseph Greenspoon]

I have a ninja character active in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play, and he is very fond of his kusarigama. Unfortuniately, a question came up regarding its use in the game that I played in last night. The kusarigama has the following special weapon abilities listed for it: double, grapple, monk, reach, and trip. As a ninja, my character was fullyn profinicent in its use. I was fighting an animated object at reach that managed to close in on me. Is it possible to use a kusarigama to attack an adjacant target, or can it only be used at reach? I had thought that the weapon could do this, but the GM thought that a feat was needed to do so. The matter was resolved during the game when the GM had the monster change its tactics, but I will need to know this for future games. Can I shorten my grip on the weapon for close fighting by holding it as a double weapon, or do I need feats for that? If so, what feats?

[Strannik]

Well, you've already used a feat for the exotic weapon, right?

If I were your GM I would have no problem w/ a kusarigama used to attack an adjacent target, b/c I know what one looks like and it makes sense that the sickle would be available to use in such a way. Also, you could consider the chain a whip for all intents and purposes and you are allowed to attack adjacent foes w/ a whip.

Now, it's possible that Society Play could be different, or have some sort of special rule, I'm not very familiar w/ their rulings. But minus some such rule, you should be fine, I think.

There is a fighter archetype...Polearm Master I think...that allows you to use reach weapons (ie, polearms) in an adjacent square. There is also the Dorn Derger, a Dwarven chain weapon, that allows you to switch from normal to reach and there are feats to do that quicker than a move action. Those are the only things that I can think of that would possibly apply, but personally, I don't feel that either of them do.

[Bigdaddyjug]

A kusarigama uses slashing damage at melee range (the hook) and bludgeoning damage at range (the weight on the chain).

So yes, you can use it at melee range or up to 10 ft.

[Claxon]

Kusarigama

Ask you GM if it in any way makes sense to not be able to use that sickle up close and that chain at range.

[Thamius]

As the GM of this scenario, I have finally been able to read the entire description of the weapon and withdraw my objection, assuming that only the sickle part is used at melee range and the ball only at reach. I am more familiar with the dwarven dorn-dergar, which requires a move action to adjust between adjacent and reach lengths and has feats associated with it that allow it to be wielded one-handed or adjusted as a swift action.

So, when used as a double weapon this means that, as a full attack, you can attack one opponent adjacent to you and a second a reach? It's also possible to take a five foot step (max) between the two attacks and thus attack the same opponent with both ends, assuming you have space to step forward or back. However, it doesn't appear that you could two-weapon full attack the same Size M opponent with both ends if you don't have space to move.

[Gwen Smith]

The description of the kusarigama raises a lot of questions:

Can it be used both double and at reach at the same time (i.e., can I attack one character next to me and one at 10 ft on the same attack action)?

Can it grapple and trip both at range and in melee?

Which side is the 1d3 and which is the 1d6?

Why does the text description say it can " trips, jabs, and blocks" if it doesn't have the "trip" or the "blocking" qualities?

Must the sickle always be used in the off-hand?

Can't I ever throw the sickle (like Kohaku in Inuyasha, because that was really cool)?

I love this weapon, but I've been shy about using it in PFS for these very reasons.

[DM_Blake]

I own a kusarigama and I have trained with it professionally.

The sickle (kama) end is the most damaging end. That would be the d6. No matter how cool Inuyasha is, you can't throw the kama end; throwing a normal kama has it spin end-over-end like throwing an axe, but that doesn't work when the rest of the kusarigama is attached to it (I suppose a Throw Anything version of using the kama as an improvised weapon would work, but that's a Pathfinder gamist workaround that is not realistically practical). A skilled user could hold the kama end in either hand so that should just be fluff for your character to decide - either way, mechanically, you're fighting with two light weapons at -2/-2 (if you have the TWF feat); I would put the most damaging end (kama) in whichever hand will make the most attacks.

That's as far as I can go applying reality to RAW.

I can grapple and trip opponents close enough to me that I could headbutt or knee strike them so I would say that these uses should be applicable against adjacent enemies. But that is not RAW. Since one end of the weapon is "reach" and that end clearly must be the chain end, RAW would seem to require using grapple and trip at reach only.

The chain is short; using it to strike opponents who are as much as 10 feet away would require holding the kama and releasing the chain (making it a one-handed weapon for this strike) and lashing out with the chain, more like a whip than anything else). Of course, for TWF users, you simply grab the chain when you're done striking at range (free action) and you can also still strike with the kama at an adjacent enemy.

I found these listed on the SRD: double, monk, reach, trip, grapple. So Trip is listed. As for jabbing and blocking, the kusarigama doesn't do this better than any other weapon, so it doesn't need special qualities for it, at least, no more than a longsword would get. The text describing its use is more about what you do with it, not about it being specialized enough to get bonuses or special qualities.

I still prefer a pair of Sai. Deadlier, trickier, and more defensive.

[Kazaan]

A Kusarigama is, essentially, a Kama with a weighted chain attached to the end. A Kama has the Monk and Trip properties and 1d6 damage so it makes sense that the Kama end benefits from Trip and has 1d6 damage, leaving the weighted end to deal 1d3 damage. So I'd say that the weapon, as a whole, is a Monk and Double weapon with the Kama end being used at 5' reach, dealing 1d6 slashing damage, and the weighted end being used at 10' reach, dealing 1d3 bludgeoning damage. The weapon, as a whole, would be a tripping weapon (the only benefit is you can drop it instead of falling prone if you botch the trip) since you can either entangle with the chain or just trip with the Kama end like you would with a normal Kama. Lastly, is the Grapple feature. While my first inclination was to limit grapple to the blunt end since a normal Kama lacks that feature, a normal Kama also lacks a length of chain hanging off it's butt so I guess Grapple can apply to the weapon as a whole as well. Therefore, when you're attacking with it, you deal damage with the blunt end at reach and with the slashing end vs adjacent enemies.

Also, keep in mind that, whether you have a sword in one hand and dagger in the other or are wielding a double weapon, it only counts as Two-Weapon Fighting (thus getting an "extra" off-hand attack) if you're attacking over your BAB limit. If your BAB affords you 3 iterative attacks, you can take those three with any combination of weapons at your disposal. If you're wielding a Sword in 1 hand and a Dagger in the other, you can make up to 3 attacks with any combination of the two and it does not count as TWF; no TWF penalty. Same applies to the Kusarigama; if you have 3 iterative attacks, you can, for example, make 2 attacks vs an adjacent target and 1 attack at reach and it doesn't incur TWF penalties and each attack gets full Str bonus to damage. Only if you use TWF to gain an "extra" attack beyond 3 do you need to designate one end as "main-hand" and the other as "off-hand", take off-hand attack penalties, and apply half Str bonus to damage with the off-hand end.

[Gwen Smith]

DM_Blake wrote:

I own a kusarigama and I have trained with it professionally.

The sickle (kama) end is the most damaging end. That would be the d6. No matter how cool Inuyasha is, you can't throw the kama end; throwing a normal kama has it spin end-over-end like throwing an axe, but that doesn't work when the rest of the kusarigama is attached to it (I suppose a Throw Anything version of using the kama as an improvised weapon would work, but that's a Pathfinder gamist workaround that is not realistically practical). A skilled user could hold the kama end in either hand so that should just be fluff for your character to decide - either way, mechanically, you're fighting with two light weapons at -2/-2 (if you have the TWF feat); I would put the most damaging end (kama) in whichever hand will make the most attacks.

That's as far as I can go applying reality to RAW.

I can grapple and trip opponents close enough to me that I could headbutt or knee strike them so I would say that these uses should be applicable against adjacent enemies. But that is not RAW. Since one end of the weapon is "reach" and that end clearly must be the chain end, RAW would seem to require using grapple and trip at reach only.

The chain is short; using it to strike opponents who are as much as 10 feet away would require holding the kama and releasing the chain (making it a one-handed weapon for this strike) and lashing out with the chain, more like a whip than anything else). Of course, for TWF users, you simply grab the chain when you're done striking at range (free action) and you can also still strike with the kama at an adjacent enemy.

Thanks for the explanation--that clears up a lot!

As far as trip goes, though, a kama also has the trip quality, so RAW should let you use the kama to trip at 5' or the chain to trip at 10'.

[DM_Blake]

Gwen Smith wrote:

Thanks for the explanation--that clears up a lot!

As far as trip goes, though, a kama also has the trip quality, so RAW should let you use the kama to trip at 5' or the chain to trip at 10'.

You're welcome.

That's a fair point I hadn't considered because my kama (plural) and kusarigama are sharpened on the inside edge - if I try to trip with them, I would slice the crap out of the other guy's legs. I also wouldn't pull (like a trip) if I got the blade behind his leg; I would slice with a circular motion, bringing the blade around to the side or even front of his leg, slicing his flesh the whole way. Very effective.

I suppose against armored opponents who I cannot slice, I might try a takedown (trip) but I'd still prefer the chain. Even so, the kama could do it, but I can also do it with a jo or bo (short and long staves) so hooking a leg doesn't require a bent or flexible weapon like Pathfinder assumes.

In any case, that's not RAW. Since kama have the trip quality, and so do chains (e.g. spiked chain or flails), it's very reasonable to assume that kusarigama can trip with both ends, adjacent or at range.

[Joseph Greenspoon]

Strannik wrote:

Well, you've already used a feat for the exotic weapon, right?

My character is a ninja, the kursaigama is listed as one of the many exotic weapons with which he is proficient.

[Joseph Greenspoon]

I would like to thank everyone for their comments, it has all been a great help. I have some small experience with the martial arts, and I have actually seen a skilled fighter use the kursaigama in the manner that I was attempting in the game. It's a very versitile weapon which is what makes it perfect for a ninja; that, and that you can wear the thing as a belt, which makes it easier to conceal than other two-handed waepons