Greetings! I'm making a back-up character for tonight and I'm updating an old idea of mine: a human fighter with the swordlord archetype. I'm going STR over DEX, he'll wear heavy armor like a boss and be neigh unhittable once he can full-attack in combat. I got a few open feats that I need help with, can use advice on tweaking his skill set-up, his gear and I surely must've missed some stuff! Another main concern are his will save and the ability to tackle very mobile foes with special movement (fly, dimensional hop, etc).
Fighter 13 Human (Swordlord - inner sea primer)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 10
H Power Attack
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Crane Style (-2 on pen from fight defensively, +1 ac when FDef or TDef)
5 Improved Disarm
7 Crane Wing (Deflect 1 attack that would hit when FDef/TDef)
9 Defiant Luck (1x day reroll save or force crit confirm against you)
11
13
F1 Wpn Focus Aldori Dueling Sword
F2 Dodge
F4 Combat Expertise
F6 Wpn Spec
F8 Improved Critical
F10 Critical Focus
F12
1 Acrobatics 13
2 Intimidate 13
3 Know Nobility 3
4 Sense Motive 9
5 Perception 8
6 Climb 2
7 Swim 2
8 Survival 2
-Defensive Parry (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a swordlord makes a full attack with a dueling sword, he gains a +1 bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 3rd.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1 and 4.
-Disarming Strike (Ex)
At 5th level, when a swordlord successfully disarms an opponent using a dueling sword, the swordlord also deals normal damage to the target, but without the normal Strength bonus to damage.
This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
-Steel Net (Ex)
At 7th level, a swordlord can throw up a blazing wall of steel to defend himself. When fighting defensively as a full-round action with a dueling sword, the swordlord’s penalties on all attacks in a round are reduced by 2, and the dodge bonus to AC is increased by 2 for the same round.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
-Counterattack (Ex)
At 11th level, a swordlord can make an attack of opportunity as an immediate action against an opponent who hits the swordlord with a melee attack, so long as the attacking creature is within the swordlord’s reach.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3.
-Weapon Training (Heavy Blades +2, Close Combat +1)
+1 attack/damage (increase to 2 at 13, 3 at 17)
-Bravery
+1 (and +2/6, 3/10, 4/14, 5/18) will saves vs fear.
Traits
-Sword Scion: +1 attack / cmbs with Aldori Dueling Swords.
-Threatening Defender: -1 when using Combat Expertise.
Notes:
When Fighting Defensively: +6 dodge AC, -0 attack.
When Combat Expertise: +4 dodge AC, -3 attack.
When full attacking, +3 AC from Defensive Parry vs melee.
When Full-Attacking, +6 from FD, +4 CE, +1 Dodge and +3 vs melee.
Possible total: +14 AC.
Gear
+1 Adamantine Dueling Sword (1D8, x2, 19-20)
+5 Full Plate
+5 Cloak of Resistance
+4 STR
Gloves of Dueling (+4 cmd vs disarm/sunder/lose grip on wpn, doesnt drop wpn, wpn training +2)
I did NOT imagine a Jaime Lannister when making this guy, but after completing this chassis I can't help but get a Jaime vibe. A guy in full-plate who's superior skill at swordplay makes him a real menace in 1on1 combat.
dont you need dodge for crane style if youre not dipping monk?
edit: ah, you had them hiding below the normal levels. didnt notice them.
for suggestions: lunge, strikeback, stand still (or that similar one), and the step up line make you rather scary and hard to escape.
Ah sorry, that's my way of writing it down. It makes it easy for me to change stuff in a build when I want to remove feats and or change class levels.
His AC right now should be 21 from BP, 23 with dex and 27 with ring/amulet. The moment he attacks it goes up to 41 versus on enemy and 40 against all others that are in combat with him. Ranged attacks will be made versus AC 37. Not too bad I'd say? He can also negate one melee hit per round.
i got that, i've been playing around with a swordlord build myself lately as well.
you may wanna grab crane riposte when you can, since it further reduces fighting defensively and gives a free AoO when you deflect.
He has no penalty thanks to the combination of Steel Net and Crane Style. Both reduce it by -2 so you go down to 0. The trait gives a -1 on to hit when using Combat Expertise, so the -4 goes down to -3. So when using all those defensive options, you only take a -3 to hit.
Another question - the sword scion feat gives you a +1 on attack AND cmb. Does that mean you effectively get a +2 on cmb because the +1 on att also tranlates into that?
no clue, personally, but that'd be great if it were.
I'm struggling with what Crit feats to take. He's a human, so Critical Versatility seems like a no-brainer at 11. Critical Focus at 10. Greater Weapon Spec at 12? And another Critical Feat at 13? And then at 14 Critical Mastery.
I have no idea what critical feats are good/worthwhile. Bleed seems good, but the idea is that you either straight-out kill what you're fighting or incapacitate it. Staggered seems like a good choice for lvl13 since it opens up Stunned at lvl17. Critical Versatility will let me use Sickening Critical since a -2 on everything but AC with no save for a minute seems pretty sweet.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-feats
Firstly, I'm sorry to say that Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively do not stack. You'll need to change your AC calculations to account for this. If it's any consolation, you're not going to want to penalize your attack rolls any more than Power Attack will already.
Secondly, I will point out that Steel Net works whenever you fight defensively as part of any full round action. This is not restricted to full attacks; this includes options like Charging, Spring Attack and Whirlwind. As such, Mobility and Spring Attack come highly recommended, allowing you to move, attack, and keep Steel Net up and running. Easiest +6 AC you can make. Whirlwind is nice, but not at all necessary at this time.
Thirdly, Disarming Strike: always, always keep in mind that you can choose to disarm opponents. Since you're rolling against CMD instead of AC to deal some damage, there will be times when Disarming is better than a straightforward attack. And any attack action can be a Disarm maneuver instead.
Now, your skills seem fine, and you've chosen your feats with care. The only thing I'll recommend you change there is the Critical Focus tree; you have more important feats to pick up right now(Spring Attack, Lunge, Improved Initiative, Step Up tree), so I'd ask that you worry about these later. You're worried about special movements and Will saves, and rightly so, so I'll make a few suggestions to help.
Will Saves are tough, since you already have a high-powered Cloak backing you up. Iron Will and it's Improved version are the best help I can offer you, but you don't have many feat slots left. Instead, look to buffing up your Wisdom. It's probably better than boosting Will alone anyway, with the boosts to Perception and Sense Motive. I'd think about boosting you Dexterity some too, if you have the gold. It'll mitigate some of the Armor check penalties, and boost Reflex as well.
Special Movement is a little easier, actually. Pick up a magic item that grants you some form of flying. You can't always walk up to your enemies. This will make maneuvering towards them much, much easier. Flying tends to be the most used alternate Movement anyway(and is probably the most versatile) so this will allow you to compete as well. Teleporting is a little harder to counter, but honestly, as long as you can hit that spellcaster, your damage output will make that Casting Defensively DC much harder. And if you're still worried about opponents being more maneuverable than you, pick up some Tanglefoot bags. They're great equalizers and debuffers at virtually all levels.
Lastly, if you have some gp left over, look into some Rings. Freedom of Movement is nice, but expensive. If the party caster can put it on you instead, don't bother, but it's still nice to have. Rings of Protection, however, are highly recommended, as the deflection bonus they provide applies to all AC types, be they Touch or Flatfooted, and may well be your only defense against ghosts and other incorporeal enemies.
disarming strike and disarming strike (feat) also pair up well, iirc. if you disarm someone you deal damage-strength, and then get an AoO for disarming them thanks to the feat.
Firstly, I'm sorry to say that Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively do not stack. You'll need to change your AC calculations to account for this. If it's any consolation, you're not going to want to penalize your attack rolls any more than Power Attack will already.
Why do they not stack?
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.
Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively most assuredly DO STACK, and have for the last ten years of the game.
Skull, where did you hear otherwise?
KK, don't you need EWP Aldori Dueling Sword in there somewhere? And no Aldori style? It gives you a +1 Shield bonus and some other minor bonuses.
No, the bonus to hit and CMB from the trait don't stack. You get exactly what the feat says. It effectively could have NOT said anything about the CMB.
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Other Options:
Add Wings of flying to your cloak. Better yet, have a good ranged weapon ready to go. Nothing says you're not afraid of an airborne attacker like treating him like skeet.
Boots of Speed combined with boots of striding give you that extra speed mobility, if there isn't someone to haste you in every fight. Don't be afraid to jump into battle.
If you're worried about grapple, you're a human fighter. Put your Favored Class bonus into anti-grapple CMD. Remember you don't need Anti-disarm if you're wearing Gloves of Duelling.
==Aelryinth
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Krass,
Allow me to suggest a couple of things...one is go with the Paths of Prestige Aldori Swordlord prestige class vs the archetype. It is truly what the aldori swordlord should be like. The archetype has several substandard abilities (one available only after a full round attack, and one requires fighting defensively) and as far as I can see, you never get weapon training, which significantly reduces the value of the gloves of dueling. You do however lose out on a few fighter bonus feats in the process.
My suggested build is 5 levels of fighter(weaponmaster) and then switching to aldori swordlord prestige class. One example build based on most of your stats is below:
Human Aldori Swordlord 8 Fighter (Weapon Master) 5
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 39, touch 25, flat-footed 27 (+9 armor, +2 shield, +8 Dex, +3 natural, +3 deflection, +4 dodge)
hp 108 (13d10+26)
Fort +13, Ref +17, Will +9; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +1 bonus vs. effects targetting a Sword, Aldori dueling held by you
Defensive Abilities defensive parry +1
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 Dueling, Keen Adamantine Sword, Aldori dueling +22/+17/+12 (1d8+23/17-20/x2)
Special Attacks reliable strike: sword, aldori dueling (1/day), weapon training +3: sword, aldori dueling
w/combat expertise and piranha strike active +22/+17/+12 1d8+23 Crit: 17-20
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +12 (+14 Disarming); CMD 39 (44 vs. Bull Rush, 46 vs. Disarm, 44 vs. Grapple, 44 vs. Sunder)
Feats Aldori Dueling Mastery, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise -2/+4, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Sword, Aldori dueling), Disarming Strike, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sword, Aldori dueling), Improved Disarm, Piranha Strike -4/+8, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Sword, Aldori dueling), Weapon Specialization (Sword, Aldori dueling)
Traits Eyes and Ears of the City, Threatening Defender
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +4, Escape Artist +6, Fly +6, Intimidate +16 (+20 to demoralize with Dazzling Display & Aldori dueling sword, +18 to demoralize with Dazzling Display & Aldori dueling sword), Knowledge (nobility) +7, Perception +18, Ride +6, Sense Motive +9, Stealth +6, Survival +6, Swim +4
Languages Common, Elven
SQ adaptive tactics, dextrous duelist, display weapon prowess +6, greater saving slash, hero points, shatter confidence, weapon guard +1: sword, aldori dueling
Other Gear Celestial armor, +2 Dueling, Keen Adamantine Sword, Aldori dueling, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Cloak of resistance +4, Gloves of dueling, Ring of protection +3, 150 GP
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Special Abilities
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Adaptive Tactics (Ex) Use Sense Motive to gain +2 attack or AC vs. creature struck last round. (DC 10+BAB)
Aldori Dueling Mastery Gain combat benefits when using Aldori dueling swords
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Expertise -2/+4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dazzling Display (Sword, Aldori dueling) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Defensive Parry +1 (Ex) +1 bonus to AC against melee attacks after making a full attack.
Dextrous Duelist (Ex) Retain Dex while Acrobat, Climb if one hand free. No AoO standing up from creature struck.
Disarming Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Disarm maneuver check.
Display Weapon Prowess +6 (Ex) Bonus to Dazzling Display, perf combat, & dueling parry and resolve.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Greater Saving Slash (Ex) 50% chance to reduce melee crit damage to normal w/dueling sword. (25% ranged)
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Piranha Strike -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Reliable Strike: Sword, Aldori dueling (1/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Shatter Confidence (Ex) Intimidate to suppress morale bonuses on target after crit, disarm, repos, sunder, or if shaken.
Weapon Guard +1: Sword, Aldori dueling (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +3: Sword, Aldori dueling (Ex) +3 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
This build is made to run combat expertise all the time, and after 4th lvl as an aldori basically with no penalty to attack rolls. The AC also does not include the bonus for aldori dueling mastery(+2 with sword in hand), the ability to use adaptive tactics to add another +2 to ac, and demoralizing effects. This last can be huge if you use the feat disarming strike. With the Shatter Confidence ASL ability, you get a free demoralize check on a critical hit, disarm, or sunder. So, if you crit, you get a free disarm check, and two free demoralize checks (one for crit, one for disarm). If the opponent is already shaken, you suppress his morale bonuses for 8 rounds, including barb rage.
Changes: I changed your armor due to light requirements, added dueling ability to your blade, added a few magic items that still come in under WBL at 13, and swapped out a few feats. Hopefully I stil captured the essence of what you were looking for. I am not a build guru, so there are likely mistakes in this build and certainly it is not as optimized as it could be :)
Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively most assuredly DO STACK, and have for the last ten years of the game.
Skull, where did you hear otherwise?
KK, don't you need EWP Aldori Dueling Sword in there somewhere? And no Aldori style? It gives you a +1 Shield bonus and some other minor bonuses.
No, the bonus to hit and CMB from the trait don't stack. You get exactly what the feat says. It effectively could have NOT said anything about the CMB.
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Other Options:Add Wings of flying to your cloak. Better yet, have a good ranged weapon ready to go. Nothing says you're not afraid of an airborne attacker like treating him like skeet.
Boots of Speed combined with boots of striding give you that extra speed mobility, if there isn't someone to haste you in every fight. Don't be afraid to jump into battle.
If you're worried about grapple, you're a human fighter. Put your Favored Class bonus into anti-grapple CMD. Remember you don't need Anti-disarm if you're wearing Gloves of Duelling.
==Aelryinth
you only need EWP if you wanna finesse it, as you can wield it normally as a martial weapon.
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Feats:
Power attack is important to up your damage, and the damage also applies when you are disarming.
If you are human, and taking defiant luck, take inexplicable luck as well. This can be used for that one important save per day, or to make an important CMB roll or skill check, etc.
Gear:
A bane baldric.
You can technically use a buckler for more AC - Swordlord wrote - "The following benefits only apply when a swordlord is using a dueling sword and carrying nothing in his other hand."; Crane style wrote "when you have at least one hand free..." - a buckler leaves one hand free, in which you are carrying nothing.
Amulet of natural armour & Ring of Protection, Belt of Strength.
...
Feats Aldori Dueling Mastery, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise -2/+4, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Dazzling Display (Sword, Aldori dueling), Disarming Strike, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sword, Aldori dueling), Improved Disarm, Piranha Strike -4/+8, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Sword, Aldori dueling), Weapon Specialization (Sword, Aldori dueling)
...
redcelt32,
Does Piranha Strike work with the Aldori dueling sword? I thought it only counted as a light weapon for Weapon Finesse.
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Aldori dueling sword says, while not a light weapon, can be finessed which normally requires a light weapon. It also costs a feat to use it this way. Does this mean it also allows it to qualify for other finesse related feats which require light weapons?
Pirahna strike says "with a light weapon". To me it is unclear whether the intent of the EWP for aldori dueling blade should allow it or not. While not conclusive or necessarily an authoritative source, Hero Lab does allow the combination.
Mechanically, any dex build is going to suffer without a pirahna strike or equivalent since the damage will never keep up with a power attack style build. Fluffwise, the Aldori are supposed to be the pre-eminent swordsman of the region, if not Golarion. It makes sense that the two should go together, but this is perhaps a point of contention since it does not explicitly say they can be used together.
Double-checking the rulebook, it seems I mixed up the special conditions for "Fighting Defensively as A Full-Round Action" and "Total Defense," which does explicitly state that you can't use Total Defense in conjunction with fighting defensively or Combat Expertise. So I'm wrong, and there's nothing explicitly denying the combined use of Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively. That's what I get for skimming through the rules with no coffee.
I also forgot to add a recommendation of Cold Iron/Silver Aldori Dueling Swords. It's tentative, because it's just there to cover DR penetrating options, and it's entirely possible that you already know what you're facing and don't need anything special. Beyond that, I second Aelryinth's recommendation of Boots of Speed, because Haste is the best buff for you, hands down.
Grappling, I wouldn't worry about. You get to add quite a number of miscellaneous modifiers from AC to your CMD, including dodge bonii, which you shall certainly have in abundance.
Aldori dueling sword says, while not a light weapon, can be finessed which normally requires a light weapon. It also costs a feat to use it this way. Does this mean it also allows it to qualify for other finesse related feats which require light weapons?
Pirahna strike says "with a light weapon". To me it is unclear whether the intent of the EWP for aldori dueling blade should allow it or not. While not conclusive or necessarily an authoritative source, Hero Lab does allow the combination.
Mechanically, any dex build is going to suffer without a pirahna strike or equivalent since the damage will never keep up with a power attack style build. Fluffwise, the Aldori are supposed to be the pre-eminent swordsman of the region, if not Golarion. It makes sense that the two should go together, but this is perhaps a point of contention since it does not explicitly say they can be used together.
I agree that it probably should work. I just don't know that it does, RAW.
Raw, it doesn't.
Nor does it work with a Rapier, dervish danced Scimitar, Whip or Elven Court Blade.
KK, don't you need EWP Aldori Dueling Sword in there somewhere? And no Aldori style? It gives you a +1 Shield bonus and some other minor bonuses.
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Boots of Speed combined with boots of striding give you that extra speed mobility, if there isn't someone to haste you in every fight. Don't be afraid to jump into battle.If you're worried about grapple, you're a human fighter. Put your Favored Class bonus into anti-grapple CMD. Remember you don't need Anti-disarm if you're wearing Gloves of Duelling.
==Aelryinth
I got enough buff bots in the group to provide haste and alternative movement options for me. My wealth doesn't let me start with wings of flying, hehe and boots of speed would be good, sure, but combat often starts with someone casting haste or blessing of fervor. Striding and springing will be bought ASAP in-game.
I put 5 points into that for grapple/trip.
As for the Aldori feat, meh. You need to take weapon finesse, quick draw and the exotic weapon prof feat to unlock it for some minor bonusses. The whole Aldori prestige class rubs me the wrong way. The archetype is decisively better and easier to incorporate into a build.
I settled on taking Staggering Critical so that I can take Stunning Critical as soon as it opens up through Crit Versatility. For now I'll use Sickening Crit and Staggering Crit and at 14, both.
While a dex-build might be cool, I feel it just suffers for it. You need to take way more feats to do less damage and it won't increase my AC really. This guy uses his skill at arms to beat you, not his agility. I don't get it how the archetype and prestige class are completely different types of fighters.
The bane baldric looks like a damn nice item.
Thanks a ton for all the feedback!
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A buckler is considered to be using the hand or arm upon which it sits. You most assuredly CANNOT use a buckler with any feature that says you must keep a hand free. That's trying to English-lawyer around a restriction in the worst manner.
==Aelryinth
Hmhm, it's why I won't use it and even if I did, my DM wouldn't allow it.