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I love being reasonable and using common sense. I'm all about that.
I do my best not to present an extremist view while GM'ing at the table.
On the boards, though, is another matter. I feel its my duty to make sure I present things in such a way, that players will experience the least amount of table variation, especially when entire character legality is concerned.
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So by all that logic, if a non-CRB book changed rules in the CRB then it would be illegal for those rule changes to apply to a player without them since he cannot use those rules. The potion sponge means that potions can't be used underwater. The CRB doesn't clearly say that but that is what was intended in the original writting. Furthurmore wouldn't erratta not apply to a player who owns a non-erratta copy. They can't use the erratta since they do not own the errata.
So what if a player disarms an enemy with his hands to take a weapon he does not have the rules for? Is he sundenly incapable of using that weapon since he does not own the rules for it?
Errata is available as a free download. You always have official errata available. So if one of the Core Assumption has official errata (i.e. rules errata that was changed from one printing of that particular book to the next), then as a player you are beholden to follow that errata.
Presumably, if a BBEG has a particular weapon in a scenario, then the GM has the rules for that weapon. So you should be fine to use that weapon in the scenario.
The rules are free online too from an official source and yet we can't use those, so why could we use errata.
The GM having the rules doesn't let the player use those rules. The player must own those rules to use them. If the GM had the weapon rules and could give those to a PC what is to stop him from doing that with other book or allowing the player to use rules that only the GM has access to (like the website with all the free official rules)
I'm not seeing a lot of consistency with what is or isn't allowed as far access to rules goes.
Here are two ways to think of it:
1) You and I sit together at the table. You have bought 'Awesome Character Guide 1', and I havent. But I built my character with rules from ACG1. Why should I get to use it for free, when you paid for it to get that right?
2) Your playing in a MtG/PokemonCCG/YuGiOh tournament. You invest a lot of money into your deck, cause you want to have winning cards. Someone else shows up with printed copies of scans of Black Lotus/Blue Eyes White Dragon/ Mewtwo and kicks your butt. Is it fair for that player to get to use those cards, just cause the images can be found on the internet?
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So by all that logic, if a non-CRB book changed rules in the CRB then it would be illegal for those rule changes to apply to a player without them since he cannot use those rules. The potion sponge means that potions can't be used underwater. The CRB doesn't clearly say that but that is what was intended in the original writting. Furthurmore wouldn't erratta not apply to a player who owns a non-erratta copy. They can't use the erratta since they do not own the errata.
So what if a player disarms an enemy with his hands to take a weapon he does not have the rules for? Is he sundenly incapable of using that weapon since he does not own the rules for it?
Errata is available as a free download. You always have official errata available. So if one of the Core Assumption has official errata (i.e. rules errata that was changed from one printing of that particular book to the next), then as a player you are beholden to follow that errata.
Presumably, if a BBEG has a particular weapon in a scenario, then the GM has the rules for that weapon. So you should be fine to use that weapon in the scenario.
The rules are free online too from an official source and yet we can't use those, so why could we use errata.
The GM having the rules doesn't let the player use those rules. The player must own those rules to use them. If the GM had the weapon rules and could give those to a PC what is to stop him from doing that with other book or allowing the player to use rules that only the GM has access to (like the website with all the free official rules)
I'm not seeing a lot of consistency with what is or isn't allowed as far access to rules goes.
I don't see how the PRD being in existence and having free errata change log documents for your already purchased books has anything to do with one another.
Indeed if you purchase the PDF of a book, anytime a change is made to it (i.e. errata), you can download your PDF again with all the changes in it.
The free change log errata documents for the Core Rulebook are a nice service that Paizo provides. It allows me to have a document that tells me where all the changes are in the Core Rulebook.
But Pathfinder Society is a marketing tool for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. Ultimately, if they offer all the material for free, then they couldn't afford support the organized play campaign, and probably couldn't afford to continue to publish books at all.
So requiring you to own the source, ensures a purchase is made, and helps to ensure the longterm stability of Pathfinder Society and Paizo.
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For PFS play, the magic item slot rules are less of a problem, since the new rules are actually less restrictive than the old ones.
However, since the new magic item slot rules are not approved for PFS play, this doesn't matter much.
As BNW said, some items/feats/etc offer solutions to things that aren't problems to begin with.
As for a GM having "access" to additional resources that a player doesn't, that is only included for during *preparing* a scenario to run (and frankly, I think it's a terrible idea). The Key reason for a player to have the resource, at the table, is so it can be referenced by the GM from the original source without any summary, edits, or (in the case of d20pfsrd) commentary.
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So by all that logic, if a non-CRB book changed rules in the CRB then it would be illegal for those rule changes to apply to a player without them since he cannot use those rules. The potion sponge means that potions can't be used underwater. The CRB doesn't clearly say that but that is what was intended in the original writting. Furthurmore wouldn't erratta not apply to a player who owns a non-erratta copy. They can't use the erratta since they do not own the errata.
So what if a player disarms an enemy with his hands to take a weapon he does not have the rules for? Is he sundenly incapable of using that weapon since he does not own the rules for it?
Errata is available as a free download. You always have official errata available. So if one of the Core Assumption has official errata (i.e. rules errata that was changed from one printing of that particular book to the next), then as a player you are beholden to follow that errata.
Presumably, if a BBEG has a particular weapon in a scenario, then the GM has the rules for that weapon. So you should be fine to use that weapon in the scenario.
The rules are free online too from an official source and yet we can't use those, so why could we use errata.
The GM having the rules doesn't let the player use those rules. The player must own those rules to use them. If the GM had the weapon rules and could give those to a PC what is to stop him from doing that with other book or allowing the player to use rules that only the GM has access to (like the website with all the free official rules)
I'm not seeing a lot of consistency with what is or isn't allowed as far access to rules goes.
Here are two ways to think of it:
1) You and I sit together at the table. You have bought 'Awesome Character Guide 1', and I havent. But I built my character with rules from ACG1. Why should I get to use it for free, when you paid for it to get that right?
2) Your...
Everyone has access to all the rules in MtG.
Pathfinder is also a role playing game where we all contribute to larger story through organized play and keep consistent long term characters.When I heard about PFS I thought it was a way to keep role playing games from dying off by giving everyone easy access to groups and games. Not having a 'free to play' option limits growth and having premium members also prevents people from joining. Just look at how well league of legends does with that formula. In this case I can easily see only allowing campaign setting book rules from people who own the book, but not allowing people to use the rules you have posted on an official page in your game because they haven't given you enough money yet is a barrier to bring people in.
What if I want to bring someone new to pathfinder but don't have a group or a GM on hand? Can I get them involved in PFS? Sure, but when they ask me why they can't use certain feats and classes from the official webpage and I have to tell them that it is because they haven't spent enough money yet, they probably won't finish writing a character let alone play in a PFS game. Now if I want to grow the game I have to start a group of new people with me as the GM. I don't have time to do stuff like that anymore.
I was getting use to all the no crafting meta and accepted that as a necessity for organized, but now you tell me I need to buy 6 books before I can play the complete game with people, and any friends I bring to a game need to buy 6 books to play. Pfffff
As far as the thread topic goes. I can see most of my friends leaving a table if the GM said you can't buy a potion sponge because you don't own the rules for it. We get enough DLC with our video games and don't need that when we roleplay.
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Here are two ways to think of it:1) You and I sit together at the table. You have bought 'Awesome Character Guide 1', and I havent. But I built my character with rules from ACG1. Why should I get to use it for free, when you paid for it to get that right?
2) Your playing in a MtG/PokemonCCG/YuGiOh tournament. You invest a lot of money into your deck, cause you want to have winning cards. Someone else shows up with printed copies of scans of Black Lotus/Blue Eyes White Dragon/ Mewtwo and kicks your butt. Is it fair for that player to get to use those cards, just cause the images can be found on the internet?
1. Because I would be happy to loan you my book during that session, because we are working together towards a common goal. When you show up to the next session and I'm not there to borrow the book from, you're screwed, but that doesn't hurt me. I don't see any way that this affects me negatively.
2. In a tournament situation, it is competitive, while at a RPG table it is cooperative, so it is a completely different situation. I didn't pay for my character, or my sword, or my armor, or my potions, and while I payed for my rule book, letting someone else read it doesn't in any way deprive me of access to it, nor does someone having a photocopied version detract from my experience or make me less likely to "win".
You are making an argument that simply doesn't hold water in a cooperative experience.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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nor does someone having a photocopied version detract from my experience or make me less likely to "win".
As an isolated incident, perhaps not.
But if the culture of "I can photocopy this (or print off a web page), so I don't need to pay for it" becomes more widespread, then Paizo don't make as much money, so are less interested in supporting PFS. And without Paizo's support, PFSOP withers and dies, and everybody loses.Paizo have never made any attempt to hide the fact that PFSOP is a marketing tool to sell Paizo products, not a free service provided to the community as a charitable gesture. It's their sandbox, and those are the rules they have laid down for player's participation.
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nor does someone having a photocopied version detract from my experience or make me less likely to "win".As an isolated incident, perhaps not.
But if the culture of "I can photocopy this (or print off a web page), so I don't need to pay for it" becomes more widespread, then Paizo don't make as much money, so are less interested in supporting PFS. And without Paizo's support, PFSOP withers and dies, and everybody loses.Paizo have never made any attempt to hide the fact that PFSOP is a marketing tool to sell Paizo products, not a free service provided to the community as a charitable gesture. It's their sandbox, and those are the rules they have laid down for player's participation.
I agree with you, I bought the books (or the ones I need for the character I want to play, anyway). I didn't say that the idea of everyone wanting stuff for free doesn't have consequences, nor did I say that Paizo doesn't have every right to make buying the books a requirement.
Just don't tell me that you or I will be personally impacted if we paid for a book and someone else didn't. I have no personal stake in whether someone else paid for their rule book, it doesn't make mine any less valuable or degrade my gaming experience in any way. If I'm on a diet and you eat a donut, do I gain weight?
In a very indirect sense I guess it has an effect if Paizo stops supporting PFS because no one is paying for their books, but I doubt the PRD would exist if they were losing money on it, so I'm really not especially worried about that particular consequence.
nor does someone having a photocopied version detract from my experience or make me less likely to "win".As an isolated incident, perhaps not.
But if the culture of "I can photocopy this (or print off a web page), so I don't need to pay for it" becomes more widespread, then Paizo don't make as much money, so are less interested in supporting PFS. And without Paizo's support, PFSOP withers and dies, and everybody loses.Paizo have never made any attempt to hide the fact that PFSOP is a marketing tool to sell Paizo products, not a free service provided to the community as a charitable gesture. It's their sandbox, and those are the rules they have laid down for player's participation.
There is a difference between marketing and sales. Making your game bigger is more important than making every player pay. If I can get $10 from 100 people out of a 1000 or $10 from 10 people, when am I making more money?
Table top games like pathfinder suffer from no one, but my closest friends even know what it is. The only reason most of my friends even know what D&D is or how to play it is because of a couple campaigns I have ran. The only reason I know anything about it is because of the few friends I have that already knew about D&D. I have yet to spend any money on pathfinder or D&D or anything like it. Now my friends who only know about the game because of me, have piles of books.
Free players are not a burden on the system, they create a large enough environment that more people are willing to spend money on that product.
PFSOP will wither and die once the price point for entry is too high to attract new players. 6 books is tall order to play a complete game. Good luck getting any, but the most hardcore gamers to join that.
I could argue about the ins and outs of this issue but it all boils down to this: Your not entitled to play PFS for free. Buy your books, enjoy the game you own, and have fun.
I think your missing the point. I am not playing PFS and neither are my friends who are on the fence about it. Paizo lost sales today.
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Where are you getting the 6 book number from? You only need the Core Rulebook to play. The Core assumption is the Core Rulebook, The Bestiary(most people don't need it unless they summon monsters or take certain feats for their AC), and the Pathfinder Society Field Guide(which is optional to be honest). The Guide to Organized play is a free download. 3 books are the Core Assumption but only one is required for play (The Core Rulebook). I really do hope you'll give PFS a try. It's the most fun I've had in years. You don't *HAVE* to buy any books you don't want to, just bring your core book.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources
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I think your missing the point. I am not playing PFS and neither are my friends who are on the fence about it. Paizo lost sales today.
If your friends are on the fence, most PFS GMs are likely to be lenient about new players, who want to try the game, not having a rulebook. This will especially be true if they build characters based primarily, if not exclusively, on the Core Rulebook -- bear in mind that, in PFS, characters get free rebuilds until they reach 2nd level.
If your friends try a session or two, and decide it's not for them, they aren't out money. But, if they play, like it, and want to continue, then, yes, campaign rules state that they should invest in the books for which they're using rule items.
Core Rulebook
+ Advanced Player's Guide
+ Advanced Race Guide
+ Ultimate Magic
+ Ultimate Combat
+ Ultimate Equipment
*+Bestiary
Not being able to play the complete game without buying 6-7 more books is very disheartening. I also cannot convince my other friends to play anymore. They are better optimizers than I am and require access to at least most of the rules when playing a game. Consequently these friends of mine are the ones that would spend tons of money on the game.
So, 2-3 paying customers lost to keep out one free player.
God bless all of you currently having fun with it. Some of us don't have that kind of cash to get into it nor are we content with using only the core rule book.
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If money is an issue, the pdfs are like $10 each. You don't have to lug a giant backpack full of books with you to each game. You need only print out the relevent pages for what you are using for your character (this is only in case your GM needs clarification as they can't be expected to know every piece of content ever released). Those books are not every part of the game either. There are many more sources of content that you can use. I really suggest you give it a try to at least see what it's like. I generally have less than 10 pages of additional content that I print up for my characters. I think you'll like it.
Wait you mean I couldn't even use a digital pdf and have to print out pages? Even if I bought the pdf.
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...So by all that logic, if a non-CRB book changed rules in the CRB then it would be illegal for those rule changes to apply to a player without them since he cannot use those rules. The potion sponge means that potions can't be used underwater. The CRB doesn't clearly say that but that is what was intended in the original writting. Furthurmore wouldn't erratta not apply to a player who owns a non-erratta copy. They can't use the erratta since they do not own the errata.
So what if a player disarms an enemy with his hands to take a weapon he does not have the rules for? Is he sundenly incapable of using that weapon since he does not own the rules for it?
Errata is available as a free download. You always have official errata available. So if one of the Core Assumption has official errata (i.e. rules errata that was changed from one printing of that particular book to the next), then as a player you are beholden to follow that errata.
Presumably, if a BBEG has a particular weapon in a scenario, then the GM has the rules for that weapon. So you should be fine to use that weapon in the scenario.
The rules are free online too from an official source and yet we can't use those, so why could we use errata.
?
The GM having the rules doesn't let the player use those rules. The player must own those rules to use them. If the GM had the weapon rules and could give those to a PC what is to stop him from doing that with other book or allowing the player to use rules that only the GM has access to (like the website with all the free official rules)I'm not seeing a lot of consistency with what is or isn't allowed as far access to rules goes.
Here are two ways to think of it:
1) You and I sit together at the table. You have bought 'Awesome Character Guide 1', and I havent. But I built my character with rules from ACG1. Why should I get to use it for free, when you paid for it to
The model seems to be exceptionally successful if the constant exponential growth is proof enough for you. This model is not for everyone and thats ok.
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I could argue about the ins and outs of this issue but it all boils down to this: Your not entitled to play PFS for free. Buy your books, enjoy the game you own, and have fun.I think your missing the point. I am not playing PFS and neither are my friends who are on the fence about it. Paizo lost sales today.
That's fine if it isnt for you. But this model has been very successful for over 5 years.
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Core Rulebook
+ Advanced Player's Guide
+ Advanced Race Guide
+ Ultimate Magic
+ Ultimate Combat
+ Ultimate Equipment
*+BestiaryNot being able to play the complete game without buying 6-7 more books is very disheartening. I also cannot convince my other friends to play anymore. They are better optimizers than I am and require access to at least most of the rules when playing a game. Consequently these friends of mine are the ones that would spend tons of money on the game.
So, 2-3 paying customers lost to keep out one free player.
God bless all of you currently having fun with it. Some of us don't have that kind of cash to get into it nor are we content with using only the core rule book.
Legal PDFs (watermarked with your name) are perfectly acceptable sources for PFS. Some people bring them on a laptop/tablet/smart phone. Others print out just the pages they use for their characters. For $69.93 you could own a pdf of ALL of those books. That is less than the cost of 2 of those books in hardback. It is extremely hard to not consider that an awesome deal. Your also very unlikely to create a character that requires all of those books so you can easily spread that out over a few few purchases. Buy the books you need to play your first character and then buy the books you need as you start new characters.
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Core Rulebook
+ Advanced Player's Guide
+ Advanced Race Guide
+ Ultimate Magic
+ Ultimate Combat
+ Ultimate Equipment
*+BestiaryNot being able to play the complete game without buying 6-7 more books is very disheartening. I also cannot convince my other friends to play anymore. They are better optimizers than I am and require access to at least most of the rules when playing a game. Consequently these friends of mine are the ones that would spend tons of money on the game.
So, 2-3 paying customers lost to keep out one free player.
God bless all of you currently having fun with it. Some of us don't have that kind of cash to get into it nor are we content with using only the core rule book.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If they will spend money, why are they frightened off by the need to spend money?
The "free to play" version is the home game. You go home, you play all the rules from the PRD, you enjoy yourself. If you want to try out all the books before buying them, a home game is the perfect formula for that.
If you want to play Organized Play, you have to buy the books. That's just ... how it works.
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Wait you mean I couldn't even use a digital pdf and have to print out pages? Even if I bought the pdf.
All Robert seems to be saying is that he prints out the relevant pages from the PDFs. That's one option; the other (as you suggest, and as Robert notes) is to have the PDF with you (such as on a tablet or laptop). Both are perfectly allowable.
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This post is addressing only those elements that involve the investment of in-game resources, such as skills, feats, spells, equipment, etc. I'll follow this with a similar post on expanded game mechanics.
The essential design of the campaign with respect to rules access is that there is a limited subset of rules that everyone needs to have.
When additional rules resources are called out in an adventure, GMs need to have access to the text of those rules resources that are referenced only within adventures (either at the table or during prep gets the job done). If a player wishes to make use of additional rules resources, the player needs to bring the rules source to the table. This basically is dividing up the responsibilities for having a source: the guy making use of it (player or GM).
The stuff that is at question are typically additional detail about things that can be adjudicated by the GM without relying on additional rules sources. Using the Core Rulebook only, a GM can rulings related to animals flanking, drinking potions underwater, masterwork tools, etc. Using the Core Rulebook, some things don't always get the same adjudication all the time. That's fine. RPGs work that way, even in PFS.
Additional rules resources on these sorts of things are all empowering to the character who possesses them, typically PCs. Whether it is a Flank trick, potion sponge, or masterwork tool for UMDing wands, these are all things that basically set up the absolute ability to do something by the character that a GM might adjudicate differently. A game works perfectly well without them being present at the table, merely on the basis of GM adjudication.
This must be the way to approach this regarding rules resources that can be invested in by characters. The addition of "GMs should have access to..." had the specific goal of preventing adventure page count bloat and the related expense to Paizo in publishing the adventures and GMs in printing them. The alternatives are to either 1) decide to implement a massive Core Assumption bloat, or 2) tier based core assumptions ("...these additional rules are in play for tiers 7-11..." type additions).
What does this mean in actual practice? It means that GMs need to understand their players and pick where they want to make a stand on adjudication. For example, the fact that a rules resource like a potion sponge exists is insufficient as the sole reason for adjudicating that a character cannot drink a potion under water. If a GM is of the opinion that drinking a potion under water is a tough thing to do, you'll go a lot farther to ensure a good player experience by making it a skill or ability check rather than saying, "Nope, that's impossible. You'd need a potion sponge to do that."
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This portion is on addition to rules mechanics rather than rules resources. See post #75 in this thread for my thoughts on rules resources.
Rules resources are things that characters invest in, such as equipment, feats, spells, skills, etc. They are things that are in short supply. Rules mechanics, on the other hand, are things that are just different ways of doing things.
The rules mechanics that everyone needs to know are those in the three books of the core assumption. GMs have no obligation to use additional mechanics for NPCs or monsters that are presented in other books unless an adventure calls them out. This sort of thing is typically going to be in tactics rather than in statblocks. At question in my mind is whether the campaign design should obligate a GM incorporate such a rules mechanic at the table if a PC wants to use one.
As it currently stands, the Core Assumption and how additional resources are brought to the table doesn't distinguish between rules mechanics and rules resources, and I think this distinction needs to be added. And I think that at a basic level, the decision to use or permit such rules mechanics should be at the option of the GM. The primary difference between rules resources are that they are discrete units that involve investment by the character, while rules mechanics are different ways of doing things that are primarily related to investment by the player in what the player knows about. I'm going to use the APG section on additional combat maneuver as an example, but it may not be the best. Someone else is welcome to toss an example out there.
Rules mechanics are basically something that any character can do. Anyone can attempt to use dirty fighting, for example. There may be feats or other rules resources out there that a character is invested in that improve a rules mechanics. If a character has a feat that improves a rules mechanic (hypothetical Improved Dirty Fighting...I'm not a rules resource encyclopedia kinda guy), and if so, a character having such a feat should be seen as incorporating the related rules mechanics by extension. Otherwise, rules mechanics should be at the option of a GM.
In situations other than the hypothetical Improved Dirty Fighting and similar rules resources, rules mechanics come into play when a player or GM decides a character tries to do something. If you've ever played with new players who are unfamiliar with tripping, you've seen what happens the first time it comes up. "Whoa, I didn't know about that." Some players and GMs pride themselves on knowing all the possible rules mechanics, and that wealth of options via experience and study, in itself, is one source of why one table plays at a much higher level of power than another for the same characters.
This, in my mind, needs to be in the hands of the GM for a couple of reasons. GMs are at their best when they are comfortable with the rules. Likewise, lack of comfort is a disincentive to GM. Let GMs run the games they are comfortable with rather than requiring that they are booked up on all possible rules before they ever run First Steps or another low level mod. GMs also have the greatest degree of influence on how deadly a given table is, based on their choices of actions by NPCs and monsters. Trust the GMs to find that balance. And to find that balance, they need to be in control of what options are available regarding rules mechanics beyond the short list of the Core Assumption.
I think we're starting to see a reaction to a growing rules bloat. This post and my last are some thoughts on how to reign it in keep the campaign flexible to meet the needs of different players.
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I think everyone is missing something from the pfs guide to organized play. From the always available item section: "All mundane (completely nonmagical) weapons, armor, equipment, and alchemical gear found in any other source that is legal for play are considered always available". The question should be if it is an item such as the potion sponge, if it qualifies as a mundane item it is legal even if the player or GM in question do not own the specific resource granting it.
This is a reference regarding not needing access to the item through either a chronicle nor sufficient fame. The person using the sponge still needs to provide textual reference for adjudication. Nor would it mean, for example, that there is a potion sponge merchant behind every tree in the wilderness. :)
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In this instance the textual reference in this instance could come from the PRD, since the rules for it are provided there. This would also apply to weapons and gear in the ultimate equipment which is also in the PRD. Even if you don't own it. I agree you do have to provide the written mechanics of the item or weapon in question, but by the rules you don't have to own the book, it can be borrowed from someone else.
The PRD is insufficient. I agree that who owns the book or PDF is immaterial. What you need to bring. You may not have to own it, but someone has to have bought it.
Or if you prefer from the Guide:
"In order
to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player
must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource
in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a
printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy
of the current version of the Additional Resources list."
Additional Resources often includes page numbers. The PDF doesn't have page numbers to show if a resource can be used.
Ok I get it. I just had a different first impression of PFS.
For me the idea of joining a larger society that would help Pathfinder and table top role-playing grow as a whole was very appealing.
Learning that it is in fact a special nitch group within those who play pathfinder was a let down.
So long everyone, I've only been posting on these forums to learn how organized play would work. I don't need general consensus for home games.
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For me the idea of joining a larger society that would help Pathfinder and table top role-playing grow as a whole was very appealing.
That's what PFS is.
Learning that it is in fact a special nitch group within those who play pathfinder was a let down.
It's not.
I suppose there are four types of person when it comes to buying RPG books and making Pathfinder characters:
1) Happy to buy lots of books (or PDFs), not bothered about using options from all the books
2) Happy to buy lots of books (or PDFs), wants to use options from all the books
3) Doesn't want to buy many books (or PDFs), not bothered about using options from all the books
4) Doesn't want to buy many books (or PDFs), wants to use options from all the books
Types 1-3 are fine. Type 4s need to make sure that they always have a type 1 or 2 at their PFS table (who's willing to bring/share their books), or make sensible choices about which options to use when creating their PCs, and therefore which books/PDFs to buy.
I don't believe any of that is particularly unreasonable.
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I understand what I read of the recent posts that you cannot play (as a player, not a GM) at a PFS official game unless you buy the books.
Which would mean that a new player has to buy all the core assumption's books before playing his very first PFS game.
How can this be true?
Campaign leadership has repeatedly stated that new players are not expected to have to buy the CRB before their first (or second, or third) game.
And it's 'both', rather than 'all', as there only two products in the players' core assumption that aren't free to download.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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You need to pay for what you use, nothing more.
If you are a player, you need the core book and *maybe* the PFS Field Guide, so $25 for the PDFs.
Unless you are hitch-hiking to the game, and never eat during games, you are spending far more than that monthly on fuel and food.
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You need to pay for what you use, nothing more.
If you are a player, you need the core book and *maybe* the PFS Field Guide, so $25 for the PDFs.
Unless you are hitch-hiking to the game, and never eat during games, you are spending far more than that monthly on fuel and food.
And all that I spend on fuel and food alas I cannot spend on RPGs ;-)
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You don't have to have the books, you just need a printout of the appropriate applicable rules, though I am sure they prefer you to purchase the books. The reference to needing a pdf with your name on it is to put a kink in piracy, you bring a copy of your friends pdf and you get sent home. But it doesn't specify where the printout comes from so the prd should be just fine, though you need to be extra careful to make sure you aren't useing something banned.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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You don't have to have the books, you just need a printout of the appropriate applicable rules, though I am sure they prefer you to purchase the books. The reference to needing a pdf with your name on it is to put a kink in piracy, you bring a copy of your friends pdf and you get sent home. But it doesn't specify where the printout comes from so the prd should be just fine, though you need to be extra careful to make sure you aren't useing something banned.
No, the PRD is *not* fine, it is only an official sourcebook for GMs.
Now, that being said, Raven, you can pick up a PDF of the CRB for $10. It's really not that expensive...and it's really all you need to start playing. It is assumed that all players have access to the core assumption, yes, but if you are not using items from the other books in the core assumption, it won't come up. You can also probably get away with your first...10 odd games without your own copy of the CRB.
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I just went through it all this week, it doesn't specify where you must get your printout. It doesn't say only some printouts are allowed nor where they must be from.
I'm all for encouraging purchasing books, but not for turning players away over something not specified.
You cannot specify something to someone that doesn't want to hear it.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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This is what is written in the Guide to Organized Play:
In order to utilize content from an Additional Resource, a player
must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource
in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it, or a
printout of the relevant pages from it, as well as a copy
of the current version of the Additional Resources list.
Arguably, the same rule does not apply to core assumption books. Core assumption books include the core rulebook, the field guide and the guide to organized play. You can get a lot of play out of that quite easily. No, a CRB only character won't be as uber-powerful as others, but you can make a decent one. Let's say that you built a level 1, only played to level 3, and then quit - 6 scenarios. That's 24 hours of entertainment for $10, a far better deal than any movie or most video games.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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BNW,
Let me be plain: if you come to my table with PDFs marked watermarked with somebody else's name, I probably won't notice, because I'm not looking for that.
If I do happen to see it, I'll follow the directions Mike has asked us to follow: record the name on the pirated pdfs, and report that name and the PFS number of the player at the table to him. I'll also help you come up with legal copies, so you can use them at my table.
--+--
This particular topic is like multiplying by the number zero. As soon as it gets a foothold in a thread, it devours the original topic.
--+--
It's time for the GenCon crunch, so there's probably not a lot of breathing room for the campaign leadership to outline what some of the rules changes are, but there's nothing stopping us from compiling them.
So far, we have the potion sponge and new animal tricks in Animal Archive. Andrew, you've mentioned that Ultimate Equipment revises some rules. Such as?
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BNW,
Let me be plain: if you come to my table with PDFs marked watermarked with somebody else's name, I probably won't notice, because I'm not looking for that.
When i say "ducks" it means -the following argument is so bad i deserve to be smacked, but i know SOMEONE is going to try to make it-
Thats why i said you need to go with the intent.