So was thinking back to my splash weapon/touch attack/sneak attack days back in 3.5 and was wondering what the best options for a rogue to get proficiency with a gun. Any advice would be great. I plan on getting ki abilities as well. Trap-Finding is a must though.
Was looking at:
Just taking the feats
Taking a level dip into Gunslinger
and Rogue talents
Thanks!
-Hexen
Gunslinger dip. If for PFS, this is the only way to fly, as you can't get one elsewhere.
Gunslinger gives you a BaB, fort save, and saves you some feats... Like martial prof...
Start Gunslinger and go Rogue (sniper). The first ability of sniper won't work but the second one does.
Or start Gunslinger (mysterious stranger) and then all ninja for Vanish at 3rd level would be cool, too.
Spending feats and talents on Grit is more painful than the one level in Gunsliger IMHO, because you get +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 HP, Martial weapons, and Medium Armor (which will be good for Mithral Breastplate)
Get ready for the rogue hate posts.
cheers
Start Gunslinger and go Rogue (sniper). The first ability of sniper won't work but the second one does.
Or start Gunslinger (mysterious stranger) and then all ninja for Vanish at 3rd level would be cool, too.
Spending feats and talents on Grit is more painful than the one level in Gunsliger IMHO, because you get +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +1 HP, Martial weapons, and Medium Armor (which will be good for Mithral Breastplate)
Get ready for the rogue hate posts.
cheers
No trapfinding no-go.
OP "Trap-Finding is a must though."
Oops. Then start Gunslinger then regular rogue.
OR.
1. Gunslinger (mysterious stranger) +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, d10 HP, 4 skills
2. Ranger (trapper) +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, d10 HP, 4 skills, Favored Enemy (Human)
3. Ninja - Ki from Charisma
4. Ninja - Vanish which works well with ranged sneak
PROs
Better BAB & HP, Great Fort and Ref saves
Could take a 2nd level of Ranger for Rapid Shot (after Vanish or +2d6 sneak)
CONs
Down Skills
Down 2 levels in sneak
Oops. Then start Gunslinger then regular rogue.
OR.
1. Gunslinger (mysterious stranger) +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, d10 HP, 4 skills
2. Ranger (trapper) +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, d10 HP, 4 skills, Favored Enemy (Human)
3. Ninja - Ki from Charisma
4. Ninja - Vanish which works well with ranged sneakPROs
Better BAB & HP, Great Fort and Ref saves
Could take a 2nd level of Ranger for Rapid Shot (after Vanish or +2d6 sneak)CONs
Down Skills
Down 2 levels in sneak
Interesting, couldn't a normal rogue get vanish?
Not without a ki pool or arcane caster lvls.
Exactly. A Rogue would need two talents to get Vanish. One for the Ki Pool, the second for the ability. Of course the rogue could also spend a feat for Extra Rogue Talent, so a talent and a feat, or two feats. For a ninja, it's one talent. And for a gunslinger shooter, feats are a premium.
The exchange is that the ninja gives up evasion and trapfinding. Besides Vanish, ninja tricks are better than rogue talents IMHO. And per RAW, you can only select a talent once, which means only one ninja trick allowed for a rogue.
cheers
Exactly. A Rogue would need two talents to get Vanish. One for the Ki Pool, the second for the ability. Of course the rogue could also spend a feat for Extra Rogue Talent, so a talent and a feat, or two feats. For a ninja, it's one talent. And for a gunslinger shooter, feats are a premium.
The exchange is that the ninja gives up evasion and trapfinding. Besides Vanish, ninja tricks are better than rogue talents IMHO. And per RAW, you can only select a talent once, which means only one ninja trick allowed for a rogue.
cheers
Ninja Trick (Ex)
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a trick from the ninja trick list. The rogue can choose but cannot use talents that require ki points, unless she has a ki pool.
Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
So in fact, you as a rogue can have EVERY ninja trick a ninja has, except for the extra attack.
So unless I am missing something, a ninja can't get trapfinding.
What about Trophy Hunter/Trapper Ranger?
You will have the Full BAB, two good saves, good amount of skills, Trapfinding, Firearm feats, and you can dip in to Gunslinger for more Firearm tricks.
Because touch attack+sneak attack rocks like none other. Yeah you get higher base attack, but with guns, honestly, it ISN'T needed especially if they are flat footed.
Because touch attack+sneak attack rocks like none other. Yeah you get higher base attack, but with guns, honestly, it ISN'T needed especially if they are flat footed.What about Trophy Hunter/Trapper Ranger?
You will have the Full BAB, two good saves, good amount of skills, Trapfinding, Firearm feats, and you can dip in to Gunslinger for more Firearm tricks.
Except you still have no way to get them flat footed or deny them their dex. Sure if you go initiative heavy you can throw out a pretty hefty first hit but after that unless you pick up snap shot(this is DM dependent afaik) you can't flank with a ranged weapon so your options are blinding, there might be a gunslinger trick that does it, or being invis. A ninja gets the invis for free albeit he won't have enough rounds of it for it to be consistent until he gets the greater invis version.
And the rogue has to dump 2 feat equivalents just to get access to vanish plus 1 feat equivalent for gunslinging and that's before all the ranged feats he's going to want to have to make shooting the gun more than a gimmick. I'd rather just be a gunslinger with a dip into urban ranger or trapper ranger.
Touch attack-sneak attack on a flat footed apponent, worth the 2 traits/feats for vanish.
True, but ninja does it better... Trapfinding isn't that spectacular, and often enough, a spotted trap (which anyone can do) is usually a defeated trap.
Now if gravity bow works with guns, then the trophy hunting/ trapper ranger/ ninja just took your cake, ate a bit of it, spit it out because it was nasty, then shoved the cake in your new brides face, and made a horrible scene that ruined your wedding and everyone blames YOU for making him try the cake in the first place!
True, but ninja does it better... Trapfinding isn't that spectacular, and often enough, a spotted trap (which anyone can do) is usually a defeated trap.
Unless I over-looked the rules only one with the trapfinding ability can find magical traps... Don't say detect magic, because most traps that are magical specifically can not be detected by such a spell.
P.S. Just re-read it, they are the only ones that can disable a magical trap... Hmmm
Now if gravity bow works with guns, then the trophy hunting/ trapper ranger/ ninja just took your cake, ate a bit of it, spit it out because it was nasty, then shoved the cake in your new brides face, and made a horrible scene that ruined your wedding and everyone blames YOU for making him try the cake in the first place!
man what
gravity bow uses the words bow, crossbow, arrow, bolt, longbow and such like basically everywhere in the descriptionso what is actually going on is he takes the cake then just basically gets beaten like a dirty rug by a combination of angry groomsmen and furious bridesmaids
or groomsmaids and bridesmen, I am all about equality
Well, there is a legitimate way of flanking and using a fire arm without any penalties: Sword and pistol combat. Basically, you use TWF with a gun and melee weapon and you do not draw attacks of opportunity for using a ranged weapon. Since you are in melee range for your sword, you are flanking normally
This approach of course has problems. First is the fact that it is TWF, which is another huge feat sink. Secondly, your hands are occupied, so it would be hard to reload. Not a problem for an E6 game, but most others would be hard pressed making their gun useful once iteratives became a major issue without more multiclassing into alchemist (although vivisectionists could have fun with this). I guess you could possibly use multiple guns and quickdraw, but that is another feat and you would still eventually have to reload the darn things.
Now if gravity bow works with guns, then the trophy hunting/ trapper ranger/ ninja just took your cake, ate a bit of it, spit it out because it was nasty, then shoved the cake in your new brides face, and made a horrible scene that ruined your wedding and everyone blames YOU for making him try the cake in the first place!man what
gravity bow uses the words bow, crossbow, arrow, bolt, longbow and such like basically everywhere in the descriptionso what is actually going on is he takes the cake then just basically gets beaten like a dirty rug by a combination of angry groomsmen and furious bridesmaids
or groomsmaids and bridesmen, I am all about equality
If, I said if! Don't you look at me that way! Step away from the cake, sir, please put the cake down!
Food fight!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
yes and if ketchup was michigan and bananas were the northern lights then I would be a koala bear ninja ranger with a GRAVITY GUN
But the the melee weapon does. The point of the feat is that you do not draw attacks of opportunity with ranged attacks if you are threatening the opponent with a melee weapon. Flanking occurs when two characters are threatening on opposite sides of a creature with melee weapons.
Ergo, you would be flanking the creature in this scenario. Would that not help the pistol if you are using gun and pistol? Since the order of attacks go from highest iterative to lowest (thus sword, gun, sword, gun...) would the enemy cycle between being flanked and not flanked?
Ergo,
...grrrhhggh...hhurrrgghhttt....
agggh-VIS A VIS CONCORDANTLY!
*whew*
That's better.
I realize that this interpretation might not be RAW exactly, but I have trouble seeing someone dodge bullets at point blank range better than a sword given the cramped situation of flanking.
But isn't flanking based off of the idea that the creature is distracted by multiple opponents on such varying sides? The fact that you can get sneak attack from it calls back to the older name for the feature in earlier D&D editions, backstab. But meh, I guess it is hard to apply complex scenarios like this in a relatively easy to use system. It would mostly just be annoying if we tried applying things like facing into the game. I am over thinking it. The overall system was hardly ever made to do melee and ranged attacks at the same time anyway.
Vanish is just me biding my time till I get greater invisibility.
Sneak Attack will never outdo the static bonuses to damage that a Ranger can have.
Sneak Attack is better suited for a "wheeeeee dice" PC, that unfortunately, doesn't get all that dice very often.
Really...?
2.5 average damage at level on increases by 2.5 every odd level.
That is in rogue levels:
7.5 at 5th, 15 at 11th, and 20 at 15th.
Soo I think that is a bit much for an about guaranteed hit.
