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So this thread had a discussion about why powerful outsiders don't simply overrun the material plane, and somebody mentioned that part of an explanation may be the Great Old Ones wouldn't allow it.
But I've always been under the impression that even the Outer Gods weren't nearly as powerful as a true deity? So while Azathoth will ruin everybody's day on the prime material, if Iomedae---or a born deity like Sarenrae---were to get involved, it wouldn't stand a chance.
Am I mistaken in this? Are the Outer Gods supposed to be as powerful as the canon pantheon?
The Outer Gods are part and parcel of Material Plane - in some ways, they are its "champions". I think that they are ferociously underestimated, although this does depend on which one you're talking about.
To put it in some perspective, an Outer God bends what we perceive as reality in the same manner that modern man unleashes nuclear weapons - only the Outer Gods do it purely by act of will.
Some literally are "stars" (Azathoth) - and I suspect ol' "Azzy" is no mere, smallish yellow star but something on the order of the supermassive black holes at the center of a galaxy. Getting that entity's undivided attention is decidedly unwise...
Remember, true deities like Sarenrae and others can, on a certain level, be understood by mortal minds. The Outer Gods can not.
Something to think about.
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How much do you want to play Call of Cthulhu? How closely do you want to stick to the themes and such of that circle?
How much nihilism do you want?
If you're going off the old books, Azathoth is the swirling nuclear chaos in the center of the universe, should he awaken he will end existance, compress everything and restart the universe with a big bang event as the best case scenario.
On the other hand, Pathfinder is not about that, it's about big damn heroes who don't make SAN checks and live in a universe that kind of loves them.
Then again, the furry toad mostly just pretends to sleep and ignores people if they go away.
If you use the Delta Green stuff about Hastur, he's not even a thing but Entropy itself with a love of madness.
They could indeed be "protecting" the material simply by existing, as no one wants to bring active entropy back to their home much less any of the other Old Ones.
To kinda suppor this, a Star Spawn of Cthulhu is CR 20, the book says that Cthulhu is to them as they are to commoners (CR 400?) and he is but a preist of the Outer Gods.
The Old Ones like Cthulhu are within the demigod range (based on references to mythic rules being able to stat them up). The Outer Gods like Azathoth are beyond mythic, and so at least as powerful as a true god like Sarenae or Iomedae, although again there is probably a wide range of power within the regular Golarion pantheon
Yeah, I'm thinkin' they've probably got just as much raw power (or more) but possibly much less control or much less focus than the other gods.
They just seem like the kind of guys who would end up accidentally turning someone into a gritty paste trying to pat them on the back (assuming any were sane and benevolent enough to give someone a friendly pat on the back).
Yeah...I mean whereas most of the gods care and try to have an active presence in the affairs of the mortals, even if only through priesthoods, The Outer Gods are pretty much indifferent, and some of them probably closer to blind properties of the Universe than beings with actual personality.
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As i am currently DM'ing Wake of the Watcher of the Carrion Crown Adventure Path, having given some thought to this matter i am under the impression that the Gods of Golarion are tied to this world, and have very little power over others. The Outer Gods have no connections as they are universal, and they also have the power to alter reality and even time, so i sincerely believe the two cannot be compared. If an event is triggered in my story and an Outer God is released, all connection to Golarion Deities will cease to exist, and the world will be plunged into chaos.
As i am currently DM'ing Wake of the Watcher of the Carrion Crown Adventure Path, having given some thought to this matter i am under the impression that the Gods of Golarion are tied to this world, and have very little power over others. The Outer Gods have no connections as they are universal, and they also have the power to alter reality and even time, so i sincerely believe the two cannot be compared. If an event is triggered in my story and an Outer God is released, all connection to Golarion Deities will cease to exist, and the world will be plunged into chaos.
This is pretty much my plan for this chapter.
Let us pray that the meat snacks don't fail Golarion ...
Creative Director
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The Outer Gods (aka Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurat, etc.) are indeed actual deities akin to powers like Sarenrae or Pharasma or Iomedae or Torag.
The Great Old Ones are on the same power scale as demigods—like demon lords or Achaekek or arch devils.
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The Outer Gods (aka Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurat, etc.) are indeed actual deities akin to powers like Sarenrae or Pharasma or Iomedae or Torag.
The Great Old Ones are on the same power scale as demigods—like demon lords or Achaekek or arch devils.
Ah, so the Outer Gods have been toned down a little. ;)
One wonders what the other deities and demigods think of the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones. I assume they're aware of their existence at the very least.
Would they have some sort of contingency plan for if there's a large scale "mobilization" of their forces, like I'm sure they have for when Rovagug threatens to come back or the Demons/Daemons look like they're getting too organized.
Well, besides "throw a group of roughly 4 player characters at them and hope it sticks" anyway. ;)
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The Outer Gods (aka Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurat, etc.) are indeed actual deities akin to powers like Sarenrae or Pharasma or Iomedae or Torag.
The Great Old Ones are on the same power scale as demigods—like demon lords or Achaekek or arch devils.
Glad to hear that this is the "default" for Golarion.
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Yeah...I mean whereas most of the gods care and try to have an active presence in the affairs of the mortals, even if only through priesthoods, The Outer Gods are pretty much indifferent, and some of them probably closer to blind properties of the Universe than beings with actual personality.
As a massive Lovecraft fan, that would be my take.
Of course, the exception that proves the rule is Nyarlathotep.
In fact, it'd be my personal take that Nyarlathotep is powering clerics of any of the Outer Gods.
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Glad to hear that this is the "default" for Golarion.The Outer Gods (aka Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurat, etc.) are indeed actual deities akin to powers like Sarenrae or Pharasma or Iomedae or Torag.
The Great Old Ones are on the same power scale as demigods—like demon lords or Achaekek or arch devils.
LOL!
Yeah, only so much nihilism works in a fantasy world like that...or else it becomes a horror game. :p
Yeah...I mean whereas most of the gods care and try to have an active presence in the affairs of the mortals, even if only through priesthoods, The Outer Gods are pretty much indifferent, and some of them probably closer to blind properties of the Universe than beings with actual personality.As a massive Lovecraft fan, that would be my take.
Of course, the exception that proves the rule is Nyarlathotep.
In fact, it'd be my personal take that Nyarlathotep is powering clerics of any of the Outer Gods.
Considering the "normal" deities also represent things across the Universe like the sun (Sarenrae, Nurgal) or the stars (Desna), I would say that while they are different in many ways (mostly in how they conduct themselves with mortals), they are still linked to one another by a few factors. Also, would be pretty interesting to see if Nyarlathotep oversteps his boundaries at some part and incurs the righteous wrath of some Lawful Good deity like Iomedae.
That would be quite an epic battle and an excellent plot hook for some high level campaigns if you ask me.
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Yeah...I mean whereas most of the gods care and try to have an active presence in the affairs of the mortals, even if only through priesthoods, The Outer Gods are pretty much indifferent, and some of them probably closer to blind properties of the Universe than beings with actual personality.As a massive Lovecraft fan, that would be my take.
Of course, the exception that proves the rule is Nyarlathotep.
In fact, it'd be my personal take that Nyarlathotep is powering clerics of any of the Outer Gods.
Considering the "normal" deities also represent things across the Universe like the sun (Sarenrae, Nurgal) or the stars (Desna), I would say that while they are different in many ways (mostly in how they conduct themselves with mortals), they are still linked to one another by a few factors. Also, would be pretty interesting to see if Nyarlathotep oversteps his boundaries at some part and incurs the righteous wrath of some Lawful Good deity like Iomedae.
That would be quite an epic battle and an excellent plot hook for some high level campaigns if you ask me.
Nice! Yes, by golly, I do believe it would...and it's reminiscent of how the gods operated within several mythologies...*wanders off, plotting*...MWAHahahahaha!
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I do believe Golarion canon has established that the Outer Gods are 'native' to the Material Plane while the deities themselves are 'invaders' from elsewhere.
Personally, I'm inclined to believe that individually the Outer Gods tend to be significantly nastier than the deities.
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I do believe Golarion canon has established that the Outer Gods are 'native' to the Material Plane while the deities themselves are 'invaders' from elsewhere.Personally, I'm inclined to believe that individually the Outer Gods tend to be significantly nastier than the deities.
Except that quite a few of the regular dieties are native to the Material Plane as well. Obviously Aroden and the others that ascended from mortal status, but also Desna.
And really, most of the regular evil dieties are nastier than most of the Outer Gods. Other than Nyarlathotep, they really don't bother to take an interest in the affairs of mortals (or probably even gods). For example, Azathoth seems fairly content to hang out at the center of the universe listening to music. He's really only nasty to you if you go there to annoy him.
As for Nyarlathotep incurring the righteous wrath of some silly girl that, by his standards, just became a god three minutes ago? I doubt he's quaking his his cosmic boots. She may be a full-fledged god, but her power and influence doesn't even extend over the whole of Golarion. There's entities of demigod level that have vastly more influence ans power than her on a multiversal scale.
As for Nyarlathotep incurring the righteous wrath of some silly girl that, by his standards, just became a god three minutes ago? I doubt he's quaking in his cosmic boots. She may be a full-fledged god, but her power and influence doesn't even extend over the whole of Golarion. There's entities of demigod level that have vastly more influence ans power than her on a multiversal scale.
Then again, Good rarely fights alone, so I am sure Torag and Erastil (or at least the former) would join in to help her since their alignments match, not to mention Sarenrae and Desna as well. Actually, Torag and Erastil are primordial by deity standards. I should replace Iomedae with Torag for the cosmic smackdown scenario, then.
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If a god takes the fight to Nyarlathotep, it's probably part of some millenia-long plan of his. :P
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I bet Asmodeus eventually trumps whatever plan Nyarlathotep had, then laughs in his formless face about it before leaving back to Hell.
This seems as good a spot as any to ask this question. What role (If any) did the outer gods and their ilk play in the battle against the Rough Beast?
Also, the whole the gods are interlopers and the outer gods are the natives is just what the mad cultists say and we all know they are hardly reliable narrators.
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I do have to wonder if and when they'd eventually notice the Rough Beast... would he have been able to do anything to them (or vice versa)? I'd say, based on James' quote above... yes. Which brings a very, very interesting concept: that of Rovagug actually potentially being a way to create an immortal universe by extremely carefully dropping him on, say, Azathoth, and more or less hoping Rovi manages to "win" first. Super-risky, and potentially a colossal failure, full of "probably not going to work out the way you hope", but I could totally see someone like Asmodeus keeping the key for exactly that reason, should some fool outer god threaten his lucrative soul-farming business and/or all of existence.
Kind of an interesting idea, that of two existence-enders negating each others' ability to end existence (probably).
Another possible use is dropping the Rough Beast on, say, Groteus.
Granted big-A wouldn't do this unless he really believed he had no other choice.
Also interesting is Kthulu's idea that Nyarlothotep is the only one granting divine magic to Dark Tapestry cultists. This really works out much better considering there are non-evil great old ones and non-evil outer gods, which, theoretically, should allow even good worshipers, yet all the cults are considered chaotic evil (like Nyarlothotep) for the purpose of priesthoods and activities...
I wouldn't in any way place the Great Old Ones as tied to the material plane IF we are using Lovecraft's work as cannon.
It's extremely clear that many of the beings in the Cthulu cycle are not made up of physical matter as we understand it.
Cthulu gets a boat smashed through his head and just reforms his head. Mi-Go are not fully material when they are on Earth and of course the Coulour Out of Space has no body to speak of at all. Dreams in the Witch House and the island in Call of Cthulu have strange angles that intersect both time and space. Several people die just by falling into a corner at a strange angle.
It's stated many times these beings are from a place "where the natural laws are different" so I wouldn't really say they are tied to the material plane at all. Or at least not the plane we are on as we comprehend it.
But there are Lovecraftian monsters like Elder Things and Deep Ones that do have bodies like "normal" creatures, in that they can die through physical harm and violence.
I always considered these thing as indicators that the Elder Gods themselves were so alien and far removed from us that they simply did not care to be bothered with us. Azathoth is a blind idiot god that has other idiot gods prancing around it at the center of the universe playing pipes. In other words it's too powerful too actually care about much of anything. It's also in keeping with the Lovecraft theme, that if you open your eyes wide enough with knowledge and understanding you eventually realize you are a meaningless speck of dust and go mad.
BUT, Nyarlothotep has always been one of the few beings who could actually be dealt with by humans and as such i always thought he was one of the weaker entities in the pantheon.
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Glad to hear that this is the "default" for Golarion.
Whatever helps you guys sleep at night...
And now for the blasphemous, unutterable truth: if you were to but glimpse the eldritch, non-Euclidean stat blocks of the Outer Gods, you would descend into gibbering madness. The dreaded .pdf version, with its cyclopean Javascript, has also been known to cause Windows to blue screen.
Since Rovagug has been brought up, I submit this for your consideration: Rovagug is an outer God. That's why the locals all had to join together to seal him away. It's also why the outer gods don't care, sure he's a threat to each of them, but not more than any other outer god.
Since Rovagug has been brought up, I submit this for your consideration: Rovagug is an outer God. That's why the locals all had to join together to seal him away. It's also why the outer gods don't care, sure he's a threat to each of them, but not more than any other outer god.
Interesting, although it has been hinted very strongly (in canon) that
Carry on!
--C.
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Since Rovagug has been brought up, I submit this for your consideration: Rovagug is an outer God. That's why the locals all had to join together to seal him away. It's also why the outer gods don't care, sure he's a threat to each of them, but not more than any other outer god.
An interesting theory, but we've recently (Pathfinder #64) pretty much nailed down that Rovagug is a qlippoth. A very very very powerful one, though.
Also... the Universe is big enough to contain everything our real-world universe contains... and the Great beyond is big enough so that whole universe is a tiny little pinpoint at its heart...
...AKA the whole of reality and metareality in Golarion and Beyond is big enough for lots of things that might not ever directly interact.
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The Golarion Cosmology is just that: Golarion's cosmology. While a holy text may state that Sarenrae is responsible for the sun's rise each day, I'm not aware that it has ever been stated as such in truth. As I recall, the Distant Worlds book was startlingly void of references to the Golarion pantheons. I assume the elves of Castrovel may have synergy, but would the undead of Eox worship Urgathoa, or any other Golarion diety?
Until a sourcebook goes so far as to state "Known on other worlds as Pelor, Ra, and Sol, Sarenrae is a goddess of the sun" I'm going to assume the dieties of Golarion (which are radically reduced in number thanks to Rovagug) are an insular lot equivalent to the iconic era of the American mafia: busy with their own local interests and issues, and while aware of things taking place further afield, uninterested unless it provides opportunity or threat to their own agenda.
Golarion is Chicago. Its solar system is Illinois. Its local wing of the galaxy is America. Somewhere way past that, a certain someone dreams in his sunken city, and his dreams create CR 20 monsters galaxies away.
As far as I am concerned, in my games, Old Ones and Elder Gods in their true, unleashed state are orders of magnitude above "local" deities like the Pathfinder Pantheon. They could end them much the same way a nuke could quickly end gang violence in any given location. It would just end everything else, and there are many reasons, some obvious, some not, as to why they don't. And thats covering the reasons that could even be understood by mortal minds.
Playing Carrion Crown I realized that the PCs are true unsung heroes at the end of Wake of the Watcher, and everything they do after is merely "public heroism".
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As for Nyarlathotep incurring the righteous wrath of some silly girl that, by his standards, just became a god three minutes ago? I doubt he's quaking in his cosmic boots. She may be a full-fledged god, but her power and influence doesn't even extend over the whole of Golarion. There's entities of demigod level that have vastly more influence ans power than her on a multiversal scale.Then again, Good rarely fights alone, so I am sure Torag and Erastil (or at least the former) would join in to help her since their alignments match, not to mention Sarenrae and Desna as well. Actually, Torag and Erastil are primordial by deity standards. I should replace Iomedae with Torag for the cosmic smackdown scenario, then.
Translation:
My five or six gods combined can maybe beat up your one god. Maybe.
:P
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Until a sourcebook goes so far as to state "Known on other worlds as Pelor, Ra, and Sol, Sarenrae is a goddess of the sun" I'm going to assume the dieties of Golarion (which are radically reduced in number thanks to Rovagug) are an insular lot equivalent to the iconic era of the American mafia: busy with their own local interests and issues, and while aware of things taking place further afield, uninterested unless it provides opportunity or threat to their own agenda.
Some of them are local. Some of them aren't.
Pharasma is the Judge of the Dead. For the ENTIRE Material Plane. All the spirits of all the slain of all the worlds of all the starry universe flow through her Boneyard on the way to their afterlives.
Asmodeus? Has, in theory, appointed an individual malebranche to oversee the subversion and eventual conquest of each and every inhabited planet in the universe.
These are not small gods.
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I agree with Evil Midnight Lurker - Outer Gods are certainly potent, but not overly so when stacked against beings like Desna, Abadar, and even Rovagug. I'm an HPL nut myself, and tend to put his stuff on a pedestal, so it's my knee-jerk reaction to say that Azatoth, Yog-Sothoth, S-N, and Nyarlthotep are the supreme beings. However, it's pretty clear that, in the Pathfinder campaign setting, this is not the case. They are very big fish certainly, but in an equally big ocean.
A bit off topic, and certainly a minor quibble, but isn't Rovagug actually the most powerful of Golarion gods? If I recall correctly it took the entire pantheon just to subdue him.
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A bit off topic, and certainly a minor quibble, but isn't Rovagug actually the most powerful of Golarion gods? If I recall correctly it took the entire pantheon just to subdue him.
Of all the gods that fought in that battle, Rovagug seems to be the most powerful. As for gods who didn't bother to take an interest in it, or who just sat on the sidelines munching on cosmic popcorn...who knows?
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Interesting, although it has been hinted very strongly (in canon) that ** spoiler omitted **
I've thought since the start that Qlippoth (and 3rd editions Obyrith) were just 'back-door Mythos creatures' anyway.
When dealing with something like Rovagug, I could see the answers to;
1) Is he a god?
2) Is he a qlippoth?
3) Is he an outer god?
all being answerable with 'yes.'
If there's one thing gods, qlippoth and outer gods share in common, it's a blatant disregard for other people's labels.
Some of them existed long before such feeble mortal attempts at categorization and classification, after all, and some will exist long after...
As for Nyarlathotep incurring the righteous wrath of some silly girl that, by his standards, just became a god three minutes ago? I doubt he's quaking in his cosmic boots. She may be a full-fledged god, but her power and influence doesn't even extend over the whole of Golarion. There's entities of demigod level that have vastly more influence ans power than her on a multiversal scale.Then again, Good rarely fights alone, so I am sure Torag and Erastil (or at least the former) would join in to help her since their alignments match, not to mention Sarenrae and Desna as well. Actually, Torag and Erastil are primordial by deity standards. I should replace Iomedae with Torag for the cosmic smackdown scenario, then.Translation:
My five or six gods combined can maybe beat up your one god. Maybe.
:P
You apparently didn't read the last sentence.
It's just Torag vs Nyarlathotep, you silly fanboy :3
Most likely Desna would've resembled a butterfly I think, given her association with them.
I don't think Great Old Ones and Outer Gods need to be more powerful in relation to the other powerful beings of Pathfinder. Sure they're far beyond the mere mortals that are the protagonists in Lovecraft's works. So are the demigods and gods of Pathfinder though. Or for that matter high-level characters.
I agree with Evil Midnight Lurker - Outer Gods are certainly potent, but not overly so when stacked against beings like Desna, Abadar, and even Rovagug.Isn't it implied somewhere that Desna might be a former Lovecraftian being herself? She's ancient, extremely so. She may have come from somewhere else in Golarion's Material Plane. And she's linked to the stars and songs. What form did she take on and possess before she became her modern incarnation as a deity?
No actually. James Jacobs has specifically stated that Desna is not a former mythos entity.
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Or... possibly an incarnation of Hastur?
I've thought of that more than once... but I can't remember a story of HP that featured Hastur off the top of my head.
Hastur is briefly mentioned in Whisperer in Darkness.
Derleth defined Hastur further in his stories, having flirted with calling it the "Hastur Mythos" rather than "Cthulhu Mythos," in fact.
But most modern takes on Hastur hearken back to Chambers' King in Yellow.
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Until a sourcebook goes so far as to state "Known on other worlds as Pelor, Ra, and Sol, Sarenrae is a goddess of the sun" I'm going to assume the dieties of Golarion (which are radically reduced in number thanks to Rovagug) are an insular...Well, in Distant Worlds there is a section called The Gods. It states that almost every world is familiar with both Asmodeus and Pharasma, because those deities are ancient and powerful. One can presume that equally old gods such as Desna - especially Desna now that I think about it - are likewise venerated on most worlds. Newer gods such as Iomedae, Cayden Cailean, and Norgorber are comparatively unknown outside of Golarion. So you're partially right here, but only in regards to young/weak gods.
It's also worth noting that "young" gods are not necessarily "weak" gods... nor are old gods automatically powerful.