| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
Does Force Damage (ala Alchemist Force Bomb) count as Energy Damage, at least for the purpose of damaging objects?
(where energy damage is halved before dealing with the hardness of the object, and then damaging it's HPs)
Sonic apparently counts as an energy type.
If it does count here, but doesn't count as energy damage for other purposes, that would be good to know.
I'm not sure.
Generally only acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic damage is considered energy damage. At least as far as damaging objects is concerned.
The question is for when we have effects described as 'X force damage', is that energy damage just as fire damage, sonic damage, negative energy damage is? If not, what exactly is the designation 'force damage' meaning? IMHO, it would be that you can have energy resistance to force damage, i.e. force energy damage.
Or, for a specific case, if Magic Missile could target objects (it's Words of Power analogs can)would it be considered elemental damage which is halved when damaging objects?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Harita-Heema brought this up... It isn't 100% conclusive, but Performance Combat seems to suggest that Force is Energy Damage by it's inclusion under the following heading:
Energy Spells and Effects: Crowds tend to respond to flashy spells and effects. If a combatant casts a spell or produces an effect that deals acid, cold, fire, electricity, force, or sonic damage in a visible way (including weapons with special abilities like flaming burst or shocking burst that deal bursts of energy damage on critical hits), she can make a performance combat check as a swift action.
Of course, that list doesn't include Positive and Negative Energy, either... Those may not usually be visible (?), but they COULD possibly be so...
Certainly Sonic damage isn't usually VISIBLE, although perhaps we should read this rule as being PERCEIVABLE thru any sense.It's rather regrettable to need to rely on tangential add-on material to reach conclusions as to how core rules work.
I wasn't even aware of this rule before since I have simply never used Performance Combat...
So some sort of Errata/FAQ to make the core rules CLEAR is a good idea IMHO.
This has been discussed before Prior thread: How does force damage interact with objects
I think Diego Rossi makes a good point in it.
Look what damaging spells have the force descriptor in the CRB.
Blade Barrier -> force weapons
Clenched Fist -> big, punching hand
Crushing Hand -> big hand squeezing
Mage’s Sword -> force weapon
Explosive Runes -> explosion
Magic Missile -> force projectiles
Spiritual weapon -> force weaponWith the exception of Explosive runes they are all direct physical attacks, so I would rule that force attacks against items are treated as physical attacks.
He says more. I know that RAW this doesn't prove anything, but it doesn't make much sense that Force damage wouldn't be treated like other physical attacks.
If force damage is like any other physical attack, then Magic Missile would be subject to DR.
I don't believe it is.
The Peformance Combat example seems more persuasive than that list,
it's pretty easy to come up with some explosion and weapon effects that deal energy damage. (Fireball/Flameblade)
Besides the [force] tag spells that don't actually specify their damage type (which is Errata IMHO),
all the cases explicitly referring to force damage seem to be following the pattern for energy damage,
not the pattern for 'normal physical damage' which is either bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, or in some cases untyped.
Anyhow, please FAQ the top post people, needing to rely on tangential references in Performance Combat doesn't seem appropriate.
Either way Force shouldn't ignore hardness. I just wouldn't do half damage if treated as non-energy.
As far as Negative Energy, does it even affect non-living things?
I've always treated force effects as physical damage that bypasses all forms of DR. It certainly is not an energy attack.
I've always treated force effects as physical damage that bypasses all forms of DR. It certainly is not an energy attack.
It's treated as an energy type in Performance Combat, treated as one for the Energy Attunement feature of the Bladebound Magus, and explicitly stated as one in Energy Siege Shot. I wouldn't say it's "certainly" not an energy type when it's implied as such in two places and explicitly called one in another.
Likewise, things like Force Athame, Twilight Knife, Mage's Sword would suffer DR if Force Damage is not a type of Energy Damage.
The weight of all evidence clearly points toward it being Energy Damage, but it needs to be cleared up because not all people are aware of that, and the fact that most of the evidence is outside of the Core Rules is certainly a factor in that. If people only use the Core Rules, there should be a FAQ/Errata to clarify if force damage is energy damage.
Likewise, things like Force Athame, Twilight Knife, Mage's Sword would suffer DR if Force Damage is not a type of Energy Damage.
Those are all spells or spell like abilities, so regardless of whether Force Damage is or isn't energy, RAW it ignores DR.
Although I think thematically it would make sense that it doesn't.I hope if Paizo does officially classify it as another energy type, they give it exceptions from the others as to how it works, such not getting halved for attacking objects.
Does Force Damage (ala Alchemist Force Bomb) count as Energy Damage, at least for the purpose of damaging objects?
A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.
The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
At least for Magic Missle it does not harm objects at all. Take that as a precedent or not.
We have always treated magic force attacks as sort of like disruptors that tear apart the bonds of living tissues or disrupts anything that is magically motivated like undead creatures but does not hurt objects in any way.
Hence no shooting the rope with magic missle as someone is hanged as an example. No blasting a potion bottle out of someones hand either. Etc.
We have gone with Magic Missle as the go to referance for force damage in most cases as it is the 'progenitor' if you will of all force spells.
To be fair, when talking about Magic Missile, I've always suspected that the objects aren't damaged wasn't about the damage *type*, so much as an issue with the targeting system.... which creates a necessary limitation on the spell since it strikes unerringly and could, otherwise, be used to, as you said, blast wands, potions, etc.
In all cases where force damage occurs, it is not subject to damage resistance (Magic Missile, Spiritual Weapon, etc.), which means that it's its own damage type -- but at the same time it doesn't appear to be one of the "main" energy types (sonic, fire, acid, electricity, cold..) -- [eg. you can't Resist Energy (Force)] (The description of Resist Energy lists the vaild energy types that can be resisted).
It is, indeed, a grey area (and falls into the same place as "holy" and "divine" damage that isn't just Positive or Negative energy [like from a Flame Strike], for instance)... and I don't think there's ever been a clear ruling on it.... so if you're looking for a RAW solution, sadly, I don't think there is one.
I do know that, in my own games, based on the irresistible nature of force attacks and our on intuitions about "force" as having some solidity (as per Shield and Mage Armour), we do not halve the damage of force attacks against objects. (In the case of alchemist's bombs, the dice are already reduced by one size to "limit" the power of the blasts".)
Please hit FAQ people, it's great to discuss but hitting FAQ is how it gets officially resolved.
There are several rules instances either explicitly or nearly explicitly treating force as energy damage.
So obviously whether it is or not impacts on how those rules work, as well as every case of force damage.
Perhaps the simplest FAQ is just listing out all the energy damage types, the 4 elementals, sonic, positive/negative, force, + holy/unholy/divine + ???
Energy Attunement (Su): At 5th level, as a free action, a magus can spend a point of his black blade's arcane pool to have it deal one of the following types of damage instead of weapon damage: cold, electricity, or fire. He can spend 2 points from the black blade's arcane pool to deal sonic or force damage instead of weapon damage. This effect lasts until the start of the magus's next turn.
Su ability, pretty clearly intimating that force is a type of energy damage, if force isn't energy damage then the force option here doesn't bypass DR... Which would leave that (extra expensive @ 2x cost) option having not really much use at all AFAIK, unless there is some force-vulnerable monster (???)
I don't really see how what Protection from Energy says is relevant one way or the other, because we already know there is other energy types besides those it mentions as options (positive/negative energy). Perhaps it is a worthwhile FAQ to ask whether Protection from Energy is meant to allow specifying ANY energy type, including positive, negative, force, and anything else, but that it only offers some energy types doesn't really seem to have any implication for whether force is an energy type or not.
So, does Force damage ignore Hardness?
How about Negative Energy?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pllm?Positive-Negative-Energy-effects-on-Hardn ess
>.>
Troubleshooter your link was broke.
Positive/Negative Energy effects on Hardness and Constructs
You included to description of Resist Energy which is relevant to this thread so I'm including that.
This abjuration grants a creature limited protection from damage of whichever one of five energy types you select: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The subject gains resist energy 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature's hit points. The value of the energy resistance granted increases to 20 points at 7th level and to a maximum of 30 points at 11th level. The spell protects the recipient's equipment as well.
Resist energy absorbs only damage. The subject could still suffer unfortunate side effects.
Resist energy overlaps (and does not stack with) protection from energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted.
Those are all spells or spell like abilities, so regardless of whether Force Damage is or isn't energy, RAW it ignores DR.Likewise, things like Force Athame, Twilight Knife, Mage's Sword would suffer DR if Force Damage is not a type of Energy Damage.
Well according to a recent FAQ, you may be right about Force attacks not being subject to DR if they are not treated as a type of Energy Damage.
Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?
Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/06/13
Interesting, although it just reinforces the basic question here...
SO, hit FAQ on the top post if you haven't yet, people!
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Does anybody know where this was actually answered in the FAQ?
There is exactly one simple question in the first post (flagged for FAQ),
so I don't see how it can be somebody at Paizo mis-flagging the thread because they don't want to type out "rephrase or separate questions".
I haven't seen it yet, but I'm about to download the PRD 6th edition errata, so here's hoping ... ?
I'd really like to know if negative, positive and force damage are 'energy attacks' and are subject to halving before applying hardness.
For that matter, I've heard arguments that positive / negative energy affects / never affects objects, and I wouldn't mind having that cleared up.
Force isn't a damage type, it's a special quality. Most force attacks do damage of no particular type.
I looked through the Errata and there is nothing about Force damage.
RJGrady, what are you basing that on?
I think we need a faq about what constitutes energy types. The examples of what an "energy type" is vary by ability/spell, some including force and some not.
I looked through the Errata and there is nothing about Force damage.
RJGrady, what are you basing that on?
The acid, cold, fire, and electricity spell descriptors all specify how they cause damage. Force just says, "Spells with the force descriptor create or manipulate magical force. Force spells affect incorporeal creatures normally (as if they were corporeal creatures)." It says nothing about causing damage in any specific way. I cannot find any example of a spell that has "energy" in the name that causes or affects force.
Further, damage from physical blows only gain types by virtue of the weapon used.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I looked through the Errata and there is nothing about Force damage.
RJGrady, what are you basing that on?I cannot find any example of a spell that has "energy" in the name that causes or affects force.
Almost all have force conspicuously absent.
However, Energy Siege Shot included force in it's energy types.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/energy-siege-shot
And Quandry found that force was mentioned as an energy type that performance combat explicitly benefits from.
I think that because there are so many places you'd expect force to show up if it was really an energy type, that these are mistakes. But who can say for sure without faq/errata?
Besides the half damage to objects, are there any other implications from whether damage from Force effects is considered "Energy Damage"
Besides the half damage to objects, are there any other implications from whether damage from Force effects is considered "Energy Damage"
While most feats with energy specify which types of energy they talk about there are some class abilities that don't. For example, the sorcerer's element-based bloodlines let you swap the type of energy a spell deals to the bloodline type, which would let you turn your magic missiles into fire/electric/acid/etc damage depending on bloodline.