Knife Master


Rules Questions


Archetypes are designed on a mix-and-match basis: each feature replaces something in the basic class, so you can, for example, switch out a Crossbowman's (default) Bravery for an Archer's Hawkeye.

The Knife Master archetype does 1d8 sneak attack with daggers. Fair enough, very nice. But as far as I can make out, this ability doesn't replace anything. So what's to stop someone dropping this ability in to any other archetype mix?

If nothing else, it gives the rogue a badly needed bump, albeit minor, given the need to use daggers.


It gives a penatly to sneak with anything other than a dagger. So you do less damage with non-daggers. It is not a huge advantage until higher levels because a bigger weapon does more damage.


No, archetypes do not work as "mix and match replacements". You either take an archetype (the entire archetype), or you don't.


The halfling rogue IMC dual-wields daggers; as he has the River Rat trait, he does 1d3+1 damage with them which is more than the 1d4 he'd do with a shortsword, so it's no penalty there. And no finesseable weapon other than a rapier or Elven Cheese Knife (which takes a feat) does more than +1 damage over a dagger anyway, so it's moot in melee for many characters. About the only disadvantage is less damage with missiles and rays, which I agree does sometimes matter.

Because the ability doesn't replace anything, it's unclear what level it applies at, or whether one has to take it at 1st or can wait to take it later.


Oladon wrote:
No, archetypes do not work as "mix and match replacements". You either take an archetype (the entire archetype), or you don't.

But read it carefully. You have to take the entire archetype, unless you take multiple archetypes in which case you can mix and match to your heart's desire. Admittedly, this means you can't do this trick to a basic rogue, only to another archetype. Which is a bit silly. I think it was silently retconned to allow mix-and-match for base classes too, given the Superstar 2013 archetype round. I suppose that's another question someone could FAQ, were it really that important.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No, you can only take multiple archetypes if no archetype taken replaces the same ability as another at any point in its progression.

Dark Archive

Mudfoot wrote:


Because the ability doesn't replace anything, it's unclear what level it applies at, or whether one has to take it at 1st or can wait to take it later.

You have to take archetypes at level 1 of the appropriate class, even if nothing changes until later. You can not take them after level 1. Archetypes that change or modify the same class ability can not be stacked together.

For weapons later in game I think people are referring to using Scimitars and Rapiers as being more damage in the long run because they crit at 18-20 and applying things like keen or crit feats mean more and will cause more damage.


Well if you dip a level in barb and two hand and sneak attack you will see a huge difference in damage with the right build, espcially at lower levels. Plus they can move and still do massive damage. if a dual wielder needs to move more than one space your damage is severly limited. Not to mention the cost in feats and the penalty to hit.


You can take multiple archetypes, but you can't take 2 that replace the same thing. You can talk this out with your GM if you want, but its not a one for one. You take the whole package or none.

You can change archetypes until you actually get an ability from that archetype. You can change it as many times as you want until then. Theres no reason to penalize someone or lock them into it until they actually receieve class features.


Bah, just use Kukris with the knife master they are 1d3 (s) and 1d4 (m) 18–20/×2 and work very nicely with the archetype. Then get them keen and you have your 15-20 crit threat range.

Sneak Stab:

Sneak Stab (Ex)

A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.

This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.


Read it again. Everyone on these boards will tell you that you're wrong. =)

Dark Archive

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedCoreClasses.html

This has the rules for you if you do not believe us.


Mudfoot wrote:
But read it carefully. You have to take the entire archetype, unless you take multiple archetypes in which case you can mix and match to your heart's desire. Admittedly, this means you can't do this trick to a basic rogue, only to another archetype. Which is a bit silly. I think it was silently retconned to allow mix-and-match for base classes too
Class Archetypes wrote:

When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all

[...]
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

You must take all of any archetypes you apply, and you cannot choose archetypes whose class feature modifications overlap. There is no language that supports your claim that you can choose to take single features out of an archetype, whether or not you are using more than one.

NONEDIT: Drat, beaten twice on that.

Quote:
given the Superstar 2013 archetype round

You mean the one where people were designing entirely new archetypes, not picking and choosing specific features from existing ones?

As for it being unclear when you get Sneak Stab:

Sneak Stab wrote:
This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.

There is no reason to assume you would get Sneak Stab at any level other than first, since that's when you get Sneak Attack, the feature it modifies.

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