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So I got to screwin' around with something like this trying to build an character for my little brother that had the same powers as a character he'd made up. To do this, I needed to effectively cannibalize 5 different classes and mash them together into a whole.
So it got me to thinking that it might be a fun little thing to play around with, if it could possibly be balanced at all.
I did a little write-up here, and a short list of core class stuff too. So, how broken is it, and how could it be fixed is the question that remains. Except maybe "has somebody already done it but better?"
Primary tier include powerful or versatile abilities or “class defining” abilities like full Spellcasting (divine or arcane), Bardic Performance, and Wild Shape
Secondary tier abilities include not quite as powerful or versatile abilities such as Favored Enemy/Terrain, Bane, or a Fighter’s Bonus Feats
Tertiary tier abilities include useful, but hardly overpowering abilities such as Weapon Training, Bardic Knowledge, or resistances and immunities.
Quaternary tier abilities are those that are either situationally useful or only give a small boost, such as Trapfinding or Stern Gaze.
Full spellcasting (Divine or Arcane, never both)
Wild Shape
Yeah I could only think of two things for this one. Whatevah.
Note: Includes all abilities associated with the progression (Rage, Greater Rage, Tireless Rage, for example)
Bardic Performance
Rage
Smite Evil
Bardic Knowledge
Cleric Domains (only available to divine casters)
Half spellcasting (Includes Alchemy, can't stack with full spellcasting of any kind)
Favored Terrain
Favored Enemy
Sneak Attack
Fighter Bonus Feats (one Feat every level, half combat)
Bloodline or Arcane School (limited to Arcane casters)
Animal Companion
Bi-level “Non-Feats” (such as Rage Powers or Discoveries)
Lay on Hands
Channel Energy
Divine Bond
Fast Movement (Monk style)
Limited Bonus Feats (select from a set list every X number of levels, includes Ranger Combat Style)
Hunter’s Bond
4 level Spellcasting (like Paladin or Ranger)
Weapon/Armor Training
Damage Reduction
Evasion/Improved Evasion (if it doesn’t scale, costs only 5 points)
Hide in Plain Sight
Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge (if it doesn’t scale, costs only 5 points)
Scaling bonuses to a generally useful skill or ability (Aura of X from Paladins,)
Detect Alignment At Will
Mercy
Static bonuses to Saving Throws against specific kinds of spells or conditions (Indomitable Will, Bravery, Still Mind etc.)
Spell Resistance
Fast movement (flat, one time bonus)
Special, limited use attacks with status effects attached (Stunning Fist/Quivering Palm, and others like it)
Trapfinding
Wild Empathy
Singular Bonus Feat (such as Eschew Materials or Endurance)
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracking
Any scaling bonus to a “non-essential” skill or ability such as Quarry/Improved Quarry and Trap Sense.
Poison Use
And I figured you could allocate them up to a point limit, somethin' like this:
(Soft) Limit: 25 points
Primary tier abilities are worth 8 points
Secondary tier abilities worth 5 points
Tertiary tier abilities worth 3 points
Quaternary tier abilities worth three for 1 point
Obviously not perfectly uniform across all classes, but Wizard comes out to a 17 in this system, and a Druid comes out to a flat 25 by my count (two primary makes 16, a secondary for 21, and a LOT of quaternary abilities).
Note: Point limits aren't necessarily power levels, someone could have 60 quaternary abilities and still be a crappy class, and only full Divine and Arcane spellcasting (were it allowed) would be 16, well within point limit but still insanely powerful.
Also, this is not a comprehensive list by any means, I just snagged the big ones and whatever popped into my head for the core classes only as a basic guideline of where each ability would fall.
Thoughts? Comments? Improvements?
I think you should look at each class individually and break it down into tiers instead of looking at all the class features as a whole and cherry picking the most powerful to put as top tier point wise, if you know what I mean.
For instance Wizard would be something like Spells -> School -> Arcane Bond/Familiar -> Bonus Feats, but Fighter would be something like Bonus Feats -> Weapon Training -> Armor Training -> Bravery. That's just a rough consideration, but in that example then Spells and Fighter Bonus Feats would both be primary tier, School focus and Weapon Training both being secondary tier. Druid would probably be unique in that it has two primary's with full casting and Wild Shape. From there maybe assign additional costs to certain things depending on how powerful of an option they are?
There's also things like skills, BAB, and saves to consider here. I'd assume they'd be placed into tier systems as well, with Monk Saves, Rogue Skills, and Full BAB having a large price tag, while the bottom tier ones would perhaps refund points (like 1/2 BAB, Fighter Skills, and poor saves)?
Yeah, something like that would help Druid fit a little better too, durr. *bops forehead*
I'm not sure what you mean by the first part, but it sounds interesting. What I was trying to do was break down every class feature I could think of on short notice and then find a fair, balanced way to let people allocate their points pool to make a unique class. You could make an existing class just fine, since all the pieces are there and by the time I would be done fiddling with things the point values should sit well (might break things up further into "magic" and "martial" tiers) that all the current classes would fall under the point limit, but sort of..."Uber-Archetypes" could be built on the fly. Say you wanted a class with Wildshape, Favored Enemy/Terrain, Poison/Disease Immunity, 3/4 BaB and one good save you could build it for a total of...21 points (not counting refunded points for poor saves).
Seems like it could be, for saves and BaB:
3/4 BaB and two good saves is default.
1/2 BaB refunds 2 points, 1 good save refunds 2 points (both together refunds 5?)
Full BaB and 3 good saves cost an extra two points apiece (5 together?).
Summat like that. Would be very bad if you were trying to go low power (under the system as it is currently a Wizard would have points to burn for Full BaB and 3 good saves if he wanted, which is...ugh), but if I broke it down into Magic, Martial, and General abilities and then assigned a different Tier selection (and point cost) for each it could come around swimmingly.
This could be a really interesting book for Paizo to write up; maybe call it 'Ultimate Adventurer,' and have a points system for a given Class just like they would a given Race. It would make for a really cool alternate rules system, that's for sure.
But...
The largest issue I can see right off the bat that boils down to determining what class features define what makes the class (many people argue that Rage is what makes the Barbarian the Barbarian, whereas other people would say the Rage Powers is what makes a Barbarian a Barbarian), and how to rate something that can be of an incredible power if not seen initially.
It also makes things difficult to balance out both as a party, as a particular set of campaigns/missions, and/or as a game system that Pathfinder currently is altogether, and having such a system can make a given character severely powerful when they otherwise wouldn't be in a normal system.
One thing I can say is that your suggestion should have 4 Categories; Divine, Martial, Arcane, and General, and that the way I see it, the current classes would have a set spell list regarding their proper spell types, and I would rate them the same as you would BAB progression, and General would include having things becoming class skills, starting cash amount, etc. For example, having Paladin/Ranger spell types would result in paying X points, having Summoner/Bard/Magus spells result in paying Y points, and having Sorcerer/Wizard/Witch/Cleric/Oracle spells result in paying Z points, etc.
As for your 'Can't have both Arcane and Divine,' a simple clause of "Once a character applies points to either Arcane or Divine, they cannot apply points to the opposite category." And then follow off with an example that I listed above, and say that said character now cannot apply points to (whatever) category as their spell type and spell progression is set.
Martial would include Base Attack progression and Weapon Proficiency types. There will be a minimum limit, where a given character is always proficient with set weapons and has set Base Attack progression, but a character can spend points to adjust Base Attack progression, and/or grant Weapon Proficiency types, or Armor Proficiency Types, etc.
Then you have the General area, which would include Saves, Class Skill lists, starting cash, etc. And a character can spend points to have X/X/Y saves, have Bluff and Diplomacy and some Knowledge Skills and Spellcraft as Class Skills, and select a starting money amount, etc.
One thing I can say is that you will need to make the points for Full Casting and Full BAB equate to being Mutually Exclusive, and have a Fantasy level for the set amount of points each character can get to determine their raw power. Obviously, the highest Fantasy level is what you would base the Full BAB/Casting limitations on, because a game superior to that level of starting points is going to be broken beyond compare to begin with.
Other than that, this can be a really promising alternate rules if done properly. That's my 2 copper pieces on the matter. Though I wonder what I should spend with my other 10...maybe go Full BAB? :)
Hmmm...I like your thinkin' Darksol. Let me see if I can get to work on some of that.
I like the direction this is headed...
So roughly we've got four broad categories or "Classes" currently that would work a little somethin' like this:
Divine- Determines divine casting ability/progression. Full casting is incompatible with full BaB. Once points are allocated into this category, the Arcane category becomes off limits completely.
Martial- Determines BaB progression, Weapon/Armor Proficiency, and provides class features based on superior weapon wielding. Full BaB is incompatible with full casting.
Arcane- Determines Arcane casting ability/progression. Full casting is incompatible with full BaB. Once points are allocated into this category, the Divine category becomes off limits completely.
General- Determines Saves and Class Skills. Includes any cross-specialty abilities and abilities that do not fall into any of the other categories. Is not incompatible with any other category.
In those categories, class features would be allocated with a point value based on the power they give relative to other abilities. Everything else would be assigned a point value as well, from your BaB, Saves, and number/type of Class Skills to your level of Spontaneous/Prepared casting and the extent of your spell list (with the lowest being the Ranger/Paladin/Magus to a lesser extent suite of spells and the highest being the Wizard/Cleric/Druid suite of spells).
The main issue would be coming up with a comprehensive list of abilities and assigning fair point values to each of them, or to categories of them as a whole.
So as an example, Full BaB would be worth 2 points, 3/4 BaB would be worth 1 point, and 1/2 BaB would be worth no points, with D6/D8/D10 hit dice going on the same scale and D12 being worth either 3 points or requiring some sort of prerequisite (cannot have more than 1 good save, for example).
Weapon and armor proficiencies would be fairly cheap, with each level (Simple, Martial, and "Custom Mixture") costing 1, 2, and 3 points respectively, and Armor proficiencies (Light, Medium, Heavy) costing the same.
Spellcasting being the lord over all in this game, the progression on that would be a bit steeper. Arcane or Divine option costs 1 point, and each progression goes up a little after that, with 4th level progression costing 2 points, 6th level progression costing 4 points, and full progression costing 6 points. Choosing which spell list to choose from costs no additional points, but cannot be changed once chosen. Spontaneous or Prepared is another "tax" that costs 1 point to choose. Choosing spontaneous progression does not limit your choice of spell list (you could have a Spontaneous caster with the Druid or Witch spell list, for example)
General would include your saves, no points for 1 good save, 3 points for 2 good saves, and 6 points for all good saves. It would also include general, non-martial or spellcasting class features, such as Resistances and Immunities, Animal Companions, Domains or Bloodlines (locked to Divine and Arcane spellcasting respectively and costing 4 points each), Bonus Feats, bonuses to certain skills, and the like.
Could do a "point buy" chart similar to the one already extant, with something like:
Low Fantasy: 15 points
Fantasy: 20 points
High fantasy: 25 points
Epic Fantasy: 30 points
"Divine Avatars": 40 points
Here's a LINK to a D20 Class Construction Engine. May be useful, maybe not. ;)
Mmmm, nifty. Kinda like what I'm tryin' to do, yeah.
Anyway, here's a test of what I'm going for, starting simple: Fighter.
Full BaB: 2 points
1 Good Save: No points
All Simple and Martial Weapon proficiency, and all Armor proficiency: 5 points.
D10 Hit Dice: 2 points
Class abilities:
Bonus Feat at every level (Combat only): 5 points
Weapon Training: 5 points
Armor training: 3 points
Bravery: 1 point
Final point cost: 22
He is made up of a series of moderate strength (secondary tier) abilities that complement each other, and is based around being a weapon user and tank.
With that as a baseline (Fighter being the most mundane class), 25 should be the bottom limit, so the point buy would shift to something like this.
Low Fantasy: 20 points
Fantasy: 25 points
High fantasy: 35 points
Epic Fantasy: 45 points
"Divine Avatars": 55 points
Wizard, meanwhile, would come out to something like this:
1/2 BaB: No points
1 good save: No points
Custom suite weapon proficiency (all simple): 1 point
No armor proficiency: No points
d6 hit die: No points
Arcane spellcasting: 1 point
Prepared casting: 1 point
Full Progression (Wizard/Sorcerer spell list): 6 points
Arcane School: 5 points
Limited Bonus Feats List: 3 points
Singular Bonus Feat: 1 point
Arcane Bond: 5 points
23 points. He still falls within the range of normal Fantasy. In my system, it seems, a Wizard could easily afford to "buy" 3/4 BaB and an extra good save, or more HP, or even simple weapon/armor proficiency while still falling within the realm of standard Fantasy, but that doesn't seem too terribly out of the question.
Any dispute to my rankings of any of those abilities? Should I stick with the loose "tier" system within each class or should I assign a distinct point number to each class feature?
Lessee if I can actually make Druid fit within standard Fantasy at all with this system.
D8 hit dice: 1 point
3/4 BaB: 1 point
2 good saves: 2 point
Alignment restricted (loosely): -1 point
Light and Medium armor proficiency: 2 points
Custom Suite weapon proficiency (mostly simple): 1 point
Divine Prepared Full Caster (Druid Spell list, Wisdom stat): 8 points
Nature Bond: 5 points
Wild Shape: 5 points
Wild Empathy: 1/3 point
Trackless Step: 1/3 point
Resist Nature's Lure: 1/3 point
Venom Immunity: 3 points
Thousand Faces: 1/3 point
Timeless Body: 1/3 point
Grand total: 25 points!
...Without skills. Whoops.
4+Int mod skills: 1 point
But! Because I just thought of this, Light/Medium proficiency but only a very limited selection thereof (effectively light armor proficiency plus one or two special Medium armors): 1 point instead of two.
Druid final total: 25 points.
Skill points:
2+Int: No points
4+Int: 1 point
6+Int: 2 points
8+Int: 3 points
Saves changed to 2 for two good saves and 4 for 3 good saves.
New limitations:
Alignment restriction: -1, 2, or 3 points
Loose, meaning restricted to 5 or more alignments (Any Neutral, Any non-Lawful): -1 point
Moderate, meaning restricted to 3 alignments (Any Lawful, Any Good, Any Evil): -2 points
Strict, meaning restricted to a single alignment (Lawful Good, Chaotic Evil, etc.): -3 points
Miscellaneous, minor flaws (EX: Can't wear metal armor, Must choose X Downside at first level, like an Oracle's Curse, etc): -1 point
So with that in place, let's try Barbarian right quick before I zoom off again:
D12 Hit dice: 3 points
Full BaB: 2 points
1 good save: No points
All simple and Martial Weapon proficiency: 2 points
Light and Medium armor proficiency: 2 points
Alignment restricted (loose): -1 point
Rage: 5 points
Rage Powers: 5 points
Damage Reduction: 3 points
Fast Movement (non-scaling): 2 points
Trap Sense: 1/3 point
Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge: 2 points
Indomitable Will: 1/3 point
Barbarian Total: 25
Sweet. Seems like I will have to go through and provide either different point totals for some things, or broaden the tiers though, not everything fits neatly, especially on the lines between secondary and tertiary.
Edit:
One more before I hop off to beddy bye land, this one will be a test of making balanced custom characters.
Say I want a magical Barbarian type class:
D10 Hit dice: 2 points
Full BaB: 2 points
2 good saves (Fort and Will): 2 points
4+Int Skills: 1 point
Custom Suite weapon proficiency (Mostly Martial. 3 simple, 6 Martial, 1 Exotic): 2 points
Light Armor proficiency: 1 point
Arcane spellcasting: 1 point
Spontaneous casting: 1 point
4th level Progression (Magus spell list): 2 points
Wild Shape: 6 points
Rage: 5 points
Total "Feral Shapeshifter": 25 points
Any thoughts on the possible OP-ness of this class?
Dotting this for when I get home
One thing you should be very careful of in a 'freeform' system is balance. Assuming you dont make wild alterations to character abilities, a system this flexible gives a severe advantage to those who powergame. Case in point, the summoner. The reality is, that a summoner doesnt get 'more stuff' then a druid, and maybe even less then a wizard or even a paladin. BUT the summoner has alot of specific choice around where most of that 'stuff' goes. Namely, he can pick specific traits for his eidolon. If a summoner splits his eidolons evolutions among flavorful/utility options as well as things that affect 'power', the summoner is no more powerful then a druid. BUT with the flexibility the class affords he can put all his 'stuff' into a single goal if he wants.
So that is what I would caution with this kind of systme. Consider carefully the effect of say a character taking all offensive options or all combat options. You could end with characters much more powerful then what the game is generally prepared for.
And ofcourse the reverse is true. Without the hard guidelines of classes, you could see some players make a lot of poor choices and end up with a character not good at much.
I like the idea. By your calculations which dont seem too far off, the fighter could get an extra save or at least 4 skill points. That little tweak alone would win over a bunch of players to the fighter class. I like the freedom that your system presents. It eliminates the need for multiclassing altogether which puts more an emphasis on role playing IMO. Each character would be subject to DM approval, but I think it would make the game much more fun.
I would also like to see how the rogue as written stacks up. Sneak attack as is should not be a major feature, and talents/ domains/ schools/ bloodlines are all second tier abilities as well. I think the rogue tries to combine several secondary powers to make up for a lack of primary abilities.
-sneak attack (5 pts)
-talents(5)
-evasion/ uncanny dodge/ improved UD chain (5)
-trap sense (1-2)
-trap finding (1)
-limited weapon/ armor (1 each)
-med BaB (1)
- 1save (0)
-8 skills (3)
Total of 23 ish... It fits, but its not optimal like Kolo was saying.
One thing you should be very careful of in a 'freeform' system is balance. Assuming you dont make wild alterations to character abilities, a system this flexible gives a severe advantage to those who powergame. Case in point, the summoner. The reality is, that a summoner doesnt get 'more stuff' then a druid, and maybe even less then a wizard or even a paladin. BUT the summoner has alot of specific choice around where most of that 'stuff' goes. Namely, he can pick specific traits for his eidolon. If a summoner splits his eidolons evolutions among flavorful/utility options as well as things that affect 'power', the summoner is no more powerful then a druid. BUT with the flexibility the class affords he can put all his 'stuff' into a single goal if he wants.
So that is what I would caution with this kind of systme. Consider carefully the effect of say a character taking all offensive options or all combat options. You could end with characters much more powerful then what the game is generally prepared for.
And ofcourse the reverse is true. Without the hard guidelines of classes, you could see some players make a lot of poor choices and end up with a character not good at much.
True, and I think that might be a little more of a problem when I start in on the Base classes (especially Summoner. Summoner I'll have to do some thinking on before I distribute points to it) as well. It seems like it would require a lot of DM oversight with certain players (new players/poor optimizers and over-optimizers mostly) but so far I'm having fun with it.
Once I get all the classes laid out in their "package" I'll start breaking them up into separate categories.
I like the idea. By your calculations which dont seem too far off, the fighter could get an extra save or at least 4 skill points. That little tweak alone would win over a bunch of players to the fighter class. I like the freedom that your system presents. It eliminates the need for multiclassing altogether which puts more an emphasis on role playing IMO. Each character would be subject to DM approval, but I think it would make the game much more fun.
I would also like to see how the rogue as written stacks up. Sneak attack as is should not be a major feature, and talents/ domains/ schools/ bloodlines are all second tier abilities as well. I think the rogue tries to combine several secondary powers to make up for a lack of primary abilities.
-sneak attack (5 pts)
-talents(5)
-evasion/ uncanny dodge/ improved UD chain (5)
-trap sense (1-2)
-trap finding (1)
-limited weapon/ armor (1 each)
-med BaB (1)
-1 save (0)
-8 skills (3)Total of 23 ish... It fits, but its not optimal like Kolo was saying.
I think Rogue might be worth a mite less points-wise. Trap Sense is a 1/3 point ability, and that rounds down (so you can effectively have 2 situational/not very useful abilities for free) so that drops him to 22, and Improved/Uncanny Dodge is worth 2, and so is Evasion without the Improved upgrade, for a total of 21 Rogue. I've effectively shifted another "tier" in between Tertiary and Quaternary that's worth 2 points, useful, but somewhat situational abilities (like Uncanny Dodge) and Tertiary abilities that aren't full progression (Like Evasion without Improved later and something else that slips my mind).
So someone with the Rogue package could easily afford high BaB/better saves, or even more weapon proficiencies if he wished. I'll try to better define the weapon proficiencies right quick here:
All Simple: 1 point
All Martial: 2 Points
All Weapons: 5 points
Custom Suite is 10 weapons, variation of Simple/Martial/Exotic up to the player. 6+ simple weapons puts it at the same price as the All Simple category (1), 5+ Martial weapons (disbarring 5 Exotic as the others, but 4 Exotic is fine) is at the same price as All Martial (2), and having 5+ Exotic weapons is at 3 points.
Since Byrd was kind enough to do Rogue for me (that was the next one I was planning on), I'll do another difficult one, Monk:
3/4 BaB: 1 point
3 good saves: 3 points
No Armor Proficiency: 0 points
Penalty for any armor/weight: -2 points
Custom Suite Weapon Proficiency (mostly simple), almost double weapon limit: 2 points
Alignment restricted (moderate): -2 points
Flurry of Blows: 5 points
Improved Unarmed Strike: 1 point
Scaling bonus on IUS: 3 points
Fast movement (scaling): 5 points
AC Bonus: 3 points
Limited Bonus Feats: 3 points
Stunning Fist: 3 points
Improved/Evasion: 3 points
Ki Pool: 3 points
Still Mind: 1/3 point
Maneuver Training: 2 points
Slow Fall: 2 points
High Jump: 1/3 point
Purity of Body/Diamond Body: 3 points
Wholeness of Body: 2 points
Abundant Step: 3 points
Diamond Soul: 1/3 point
Quivering Palm: 3 points
Empty Body: 2 points
Timeless Body/Tongue of the Sun and Moon/Perfect Self: 1 point
= 45
*facedesk*
As we can see, the issue is that he is made up of a few Secondary Tier abilities and an UNGODLY HORDE of tertiary tier abilities, which somewhat over-inflates his point value.
Yeah I need some help with this one. Because many of these abilities I do think have the right value assigned to them, it just doesn't fit in anything but Epic Fantasy or above. Sheesh. I'll need to think on that.
There was a class building system for 3.5, and in every 3.+ system monks Druids and paladins have been OP by the numbers. When you have a monk (variant) that can solo a tarasque according to RAW, then you know something went wrong somewhere.
Retroactively assigning points to abilities for point buy doesn't tend to work out from what I've seen. It's attempted now and then, but it usually just turns into a min-maxer's paradise. When you have tight packages of abilities that are weighed against themselves and not against the abilities of some other thing (aka: a class), and then you open them up to give their innards to everyone and anyone who asks, compatibility issues start to appear. And due to Pathfinder's strong emphasis on the class (not to mention archetypes), making it into a free form type system makes it lose a lot of what makes Pathfinder Pathfinder. That last part is a bit academic, I suppose.
You have a point on the balance issue, yeah. It'd require me to either perfectly balance it somehow (unlikely) or would require a lot of GM oversight. I THINK I can make it work for what I need it to though, and I figured other forumites would be able to help me out or would be interested in trying it.
Not too terribly worried about the "not Pathfinder" issue though, it is homebrew after all.
If I were to create my own abilities and stuff it might work better but this is more a test of concept than anything ATM.
Find a way to buy abilities as you go. Everyone has average stats starting out. Then award points at each level to buy HD, skills, weapons, BaB, Saves, and class abilities. Kinda like skyrim did it.
That would be a brutal first couple levels, but eventually you will find a balance point where the PCs become truly heroic. Buying spell slots or levels (or all scaling abilities for that matter) would increase in points as you go. Alot like the point but for ability scores.
You will see a lot of power gaming at later levels, but the players will have earned it. You could also treat some special abilities as quests. You have to do x to get access to y. It would take alot of work initially to break all the abilities down into points, and scale them by points as they get more powerful.
All skills would be "class skills" but every single skill would have to be bought. Feats would be a bit crazy, especially if they have a high ability prerequisite like the TWF feats.
What do you think? This would be a great challenge for experienced players. I think you will end up seeing alot more role playing vs roll playing.
Hm. I like the idea of awarding points as players go along to buy things.
They should at least start out with a few simple weapon proficiencies (maybe I should drop Custom Suite: Simple to 0 points?) and other 0 point things.
I may leave Feats as they are. Or maybe not. It would be interesting to see someone who pumped all of their points into Feats and nothing else. Kind of like the "Weak, but Skilled" trope, he can do almost anything but he misses out on a lot of flashy superpowers and things.
Once I get all this hashed out I'll probably introduce it to my group once we finish/stop playing Carrion Crown. My campaign is the "experimental" campaign anyway, where we try out new houserules.
I'll get started on that later today or Monday. Our game's tomorrow and I have stuff to do Sunday so they're out.
25 point buy to get attributed, skills, HD, saves, and class abilities. You can never have more skill ranks BaB or save bonus than character level. Can never have a spell levels or saving throw bonus higher than half your character level ( but you could build a MT from level 1).
D6-0pts
D8-2
D10-4
D12-6
2skills- 0pts
4-2
6-4
8-6
BaB cost is equal to rank, BaB 1-1, while BaB 2-3, 3-6, 4-10 and so on. Same with saving throw bonus.
So a d12 skill monkey (8) with good BaB and three good saves would cost 16 points leaving 9 pts to buy weapons armor class abilities and attributes.
Bump
Gimme time. I had a game to run and bunches o' stuff to do besides today.
I'll take another crack at it tomorrow. ;)
Take your time, I just didn't want the idea to fall into obscurity.
I do like your post right up there, though.
So how many points d'you think per level? 5?
5 would be enough to "buy" most class features at least.
For the sake of simplicity I think scaling bonuses will continue to scale though perhaps the option to only get half-progression or no scaling at all on a class feature for a lesser cost would be good.
It depends on how much you decide scaling abilities cost like spells and BaB and saves and whatnot. If BaB cost 1 point per level, then every character could afford it. At later levels, some characters would have to save their skill points when they level just to afford higher end abilities. Buying a full BaB/ spell progression/ save suite at first lvl would be a mistake, because everyone would buy up everything and fill in the blanks as they go.
Mm-mm, not what I meant.
I meant stuff like Sneak Attack and such. Meant "Class Features" not "Bonuses".
5 seems good then.
So just to get everything in one post, we've got:
BaB: BaB progression is bought at first level and cannot be changed (due to some issues I'll elaborate on at the bottom). 1/2 BaB progression is worth 0 points, 3/4 BaB progression is worth 3 points, and Full BaB progression is worth 6 points.
Saves: You get one good save free, 2 good saves for 3 points, and all good saves for 6 points.
Hit Dice: d6 costs 0 points, d8 costs 2 points, d10 costs 4 points, and d12 costs 6 points. This one is also chosen at first level and progresses from there for simplicity.
Skills: Progress the same as hit dice. 2+Int is 0 points, 4+Int is 2 points, 6+Int is 4 points, and 8+Int is 6 points.
Feats: Everyone gets a free Feat at every odd level just like usual. All Bonus Feats are on a level-by-level basis and cost 2 (3?) points apiece. You are limited to one bought Bonus Feat per level, but you can still gain Bonus Feats from racial bonuses (such as Human) and the like.
Spellcasting: Progresses on a level-by-level basis as well, with each upgrade costing twice the level of the new spell level. For example, 1st level spells (includes Cantrips/Orisons) cost 2 points, 2nd level spells cost 4 points, 3rd level spells cost 6 points, etc. At first level you must choose to have either Divine or Arcane spellcasting, and whether that spellcasting is Spontaneous or Prepared. Once chosen this cannot be changed. As well at first level a spell list must be chosen, which cannot be changed once chosen. If the spell list chosen only has a 4th level or 6th level progression you cannot progress higher than that level. At GM discretion, a player may be allowed to alternate spell lists within his casting type (I.E. Arcane casters could choose from 1st level Wizard/Sorcerer spells and then take 2nd level Witch spells), though the GM should take caution with this option.
---Prepared Spellcasting: Divine uses Cleric spell progression and Arcane uses Wizard spell progression. What this means is that you cannot increase your spell level and spells per day (without Ability Score Bonuses) beyond the point that a Wizard/Cleric would have gained that spell level.
---Spontaneous Spellcasting: Divine uses Oracle spell progression and Arcane uses Sorcerer spell progression. What this means is that you cannot increase your spell level, spells per day (without Ability Score Bonuses) and spells known beyond the point that a Sorcerer/Oracle would have gained that spell level.
Class Features: Class Features vary in price, with the general rule being that "Defining" (Rage, Domains/Bloodlines/Arcane Schools, Weapon Training, etc.) non-spellcasting class features are worth 5 points, "Major" class Features (Nature Bond, Non-Feats like Rage Powers and Rogue Talents, Stunning Fist, etc.) are worth 3 points, and "Minor" (Trapfinding, Resistances/Immunities, Skill Bonuses, etc.) class features are worth 1 point. Class Features that progress over time progress at the same rate as they would normally (Rage/Greater Rage, Evasion/Improved Evasion, Favored Enemy/Terrain progression, etc.).
Characters gain 25 points at first level, and 5 points each level thereafter to do with as they will, which can be stockpiled for as long as that player wishes, but can only be spent at level-up. This is necessary to gain some high level abilities (mainly spellcasting).
Bydology: While I initially liked your "BaB is worth the rank it costs" idea, upon thinking about it I realized it was entirely unfeasible. With that system, someone who wanted Full BaB progression would be spending a grand total of 210 points at level 20. Starting with 25 points and gaining 5 every level, the grand total of AVAILABLE points is only 120, making a full BaB character utterly impossible.
Looks good, I thought the same thing about the BaB.
Hm. Maximum number of points to first level may be dropped to 20. Building a Fighter, you come out to like 12 points without Armor/Weapon proficiencies (Using the same cost as previously, so 6 points for All Armor and Simple/Martial Weapons).
6 from BaB, 4 from Hit Dice, Saves/Skills are Free, 6 for Armor/Weapons and 2 for the bonus Feat. So he's got 2 points he could put elsewhere (likely buying 4+Int skill points or another Good Save).
May need to go back to the "Buying Spellcasting in the first place is expensive thing too" because a 1st level Wizard could be built for 2 points with this system because whoopsie.
So go back to the 8 initial investment for spellcasting (6 for spellcasting itself, two for choosing your spell list and progression), then 2 for 1st level spells, free BaB/Hit Dice/Saves/Skills/Feat and you build a Wizard for 10 points. Which I think is fair considering they have to pay oodles of points to get full spellcasting down the line. A total of 90 points out of the total 110 (starting 15 plus 5 per level), leaving room only for the Arcane School (5 points), the Arcane Bond (3 points) and the Bonus Feats at 1/5/10/15/20 (10 points total) for a total of 108 points at 20th level.
Hah. Sweet.
Main problem is still my man, the Monk. Think I may bundle his abilities into some things (scaling, not all at once).
For sure:
Core Monk Abilities: Unarmed Strike/AC Bonus/Flurry of Blows/Stunning Fist for 5 points
So at level 1 you could buy All Good Saves (6 points) Custom Suite of Mostly Simple Weapons (2 points), 3/4 BaB (2 points), 4+Int skill points (2 points), Core Abilities (5 points), and a Bonus Feat (2 points). -3 from the alignment restriction (2) and the no armor (1 because it's somewhat canceled out by the AC Bonus)
Level 1 Total: 16 points
Leaving room to bump up to full BaB or grab some other nifty something or other (more weapons maybe?). Would be up to 18 if the player chose to forgo the alignment restriction.
I THINK he would be able to get by just fine from there, since each ability is either a 3 pointer or a 1 pointer from then on, besides maybe Ki Pool which I'd rank at 5 points. He'd likely have plenty of points left over for extra Bonus Feats or some minor spellcasting as well if the player wished to invest in that. I know if I bundled everything into 3 point packages (based on when he gets 1 or multiple NEW abilities on that chart on the Monk page) it would come out to a total of 69 points, which would make Monk more half a class than anything else which I don't really like the sound of TBH.
Just make the monk abilities for point buy, and let your PCs buy them as they see fit.
They might or might not fit that way is the problem. What I would like to be able to do is make it so every existing class IS possible to build straight out too, not just custom classes, which might not be possible if all of those abilities cost 1-3 points apiece.
But with the 110 total (well, effectively 113 with the restrictions you can impose on the class) points it could work out just fine. I need to check it later but I'm too lazy right now.
There is a lot of trash thrown into the monk that is just filler. 1/3 abilities that have a min lvl req.
Just making it known I haven't forgot about this, I'm running some "playtest" data (hopefully) with my players to see what kind of average power levels would be expected in a campaign running this.
If he decides to participate, I'm expecting most of the broken-ness to become apparent when Mr. Bard/Summoner gets involved. ;)
Don't try to make everything come out even. Wizards should come out as more powerful than sorcerers should come out as more powerful than barbarians should come out as more powerful than rogues. Otherwise you'll wind up with the same problem Paizo had with the race builder playtest for the ARG with the abilities of some classes over priced and other classes under priced so they look equal on paper in spite of not being at all equal.
Yeah, I had hoped to head off SOME of that by putting Spellcasting in its own tier and then breaking everything up into roughly equal tiers, but I'm sure some of that will come out. I'll be encouraging them to come up with the most ridiculous/broken builds they can so I can pinpoint the most troublesome outliers and adjust them accordingly.
But I'm trying to shy away from "X is more powerful than Y automatically" type of thing (besides the obvious "Full casting rapes the game" problem) since I'm hoping this could be the start of a full re-balance of classes I could enact. Simply having the Rogue potentially have more BaB/Better saves/More weapons goes a short way towards that (though the Wizard being able to do the same has me slightly peeved, though it's no biggie IMO), but I'd like to be able to do more once the kinks get worked out.
You can build an average ability break down using rogue as one end of the spectrum, and wizard as the other. Maybe that will help you balance the ability costs... You know that full casters are over balanced, and rogues are under balanced by the numbers. Going in knowing that should help. Let me know if there is anything I can do for you.
Ah, the first player has completed his class.
Eldritch Commando:
Class Skills are: Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Kn. Arcana, Kn. Geography, and Kn. Local, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Slight of Hand, Survival, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Full BAB: 6 points
D8 Hit Dice: 2 points
4+Int skills: 2 points
Martial Weapon Proficiency: 2 points
Light Armor: 1 point
One Good Save (Reflex): Free
Sneak Attack: 5 points
Sorcerer Bloodline (Earth Elemental): 5 points
Bonus Feat: 2 points
= 25 points
It looks neat. Fun to play, a flavorful kind of class, and mostly balanced I think. The Bloodline allows for the casting of the bonus spells once per day as a Spell-Like Ability when they become available (2+Cha for Burning Hands and Scorching Ray I thought was fair), and I don't think that'll bust anything too much.
I'd so love to see this as an official game option. The ability to make your own class but know that you won't be too OP would really make the game back into an RP, not a "I have a better roll than you" game.
+infinity and beyond!
Ah, the first player has completed his class.
Eldritch Commando:
Class Skills are: Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Kn. Arcana, Kn. Geography, and Kn. Local, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Slight of Hand, Survival, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Full BAB: 6 points
D8 Hit Dice: 2 points
4+Int skills: 2 points
Martial Weapon Proficiency: 2 points
Light Armor: 1 point
One Good Save (Reflex): FreeSneak Attack: 5 points
Sorcerer Bloodline (Earth Elemental): 5 points
Bonus Feat: 2 points= 25 points
It looks neat. Fun to play, a flavorful kind of class, and mostly balanced I think. The Bloodline allows for the casting of the bonus spells once per day as a Spell-Like Ability when they become available (2+Cha for Burning Hands and Scorching Ray I thought was fair), and I don't think that'll bust anything too much.
Give him extra spell slots based on his cha modifier. Base 1 + 1 for a cha of 12 (needs min of 11 to cast at all) or 1+ 2 for a cha of 20.
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So, I've got a first draft completed (I believe I've incorporated Byrdology's suggestions fro our e-mail correspondence, he can tell me if I missed them).
Figured I'd post it before I forgot again.
A bit of a warning, the current set-up allows for completely Martial classes (no spellcasting) and the Ranger and Paladin set of abilities to be "Naturally Gestalted", as their point buys add up to around 55-60 points, and 6 level spellcasters end up with something like 80-90-ish at max.
IF YOU DO NOT WANT THIS and want to retain close to normal class balance, I would suggest restricting the martial classes to 2-3 points per level up instead of the full 5, and perhaps just hard capping the 6 level caster's point gain at around 95 or so.
I will attempt to work out a "perfect" ratio in the near future so as to support normal class balance as much as possible.
So, I've got a first draft completed (I believe I've incorporated Byrdology's suggestions fro our e-mail correspondence, he can tell me if I missed them).
Figured I'd post it before I forgot again.
A bit of a warning, the current set-up allows for completely Martial classes (no spellcasting) and the Ranger and Paladin set of abilities to be "Naturally Gestalted", as their point buys add up to around 55-60 points, and 6 level spellcasters end up with something like 80-90-ish at max.
IF YOU DO NOT WANT THIS and want to retain close to normal class balance, I would suggest restricting the martial classes to 2-3 points per level up instead of the full 5, and perhaps just hard capping the 6 level caster's point gain at around 95 or so.
I will attempt to work out a "perfect" ratio in the near future so as to support normal class balance as much as possible.
ALL HAIL RYNJIN!
I take it you like it then?
See any glaring problems or suggestions for changes?
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Rynjin, I don't really agree with your philosophy on PC power levels, game play, and a few other thousand issues when it comes to this game, but you did some excellent work with your layout on all of this. Good work.
If I can offer a humble consideration - and I may have missed it somewhere - if I did, disregard this suggestion.
Have you considered the stat dependency when calculation out the scoring system and the bias it could cause in scoring these class abilities?
I know you cover core abilities, but if (for example) several abilities rely on one stat vs. others that rely on a few, wouldn't that score the abilities that require one stat a bit higher in the scheme of things? (the old mad sad discussion).
One fix would be to rebalance class abilities based as such on a price plan, or even roll them up into packages (pre-finalized classes), and after assessment give a refund back to the classes that:
A) Require diverse skill sets (and stats) to function
B) Require diverse stat array to function (Dex for AC,Str for attacks and Con for Hp).
C) Anything I'm missing
Instead of turning those points into feats or other in-game abilities that can currently be purchased through game play (feats, skills, stat boosts) the semi-finalized packages(classes) can then add some customizable second tier (or lower) abilities to the class to round out their purchase totals and finalize them.
You can disregard my comments if you don't think they fit/apply.
I think this is a well put together thought exercise with a potential for payoff. Again, good job on this.
Hm. I actually hadn't considered the stat discrepancy. Things like Wis casters (Ah, another thing I need to cover: Whether or not you should be able to choose your casting stat) always taking the Monk's "Physical Package" to boost AC.
I already tried the "bundled classes" bit, and it didn't really work out. There was always something that seemed to fall outside the edges, which is why i broke it down into the flat "Here are the abilities, here are their point values" system. But I had also not considered your approach, which was to "deduct" point buy based on MADness/SADness. It'd probably require another overhaul, but hey that's why it's a draft.
I'll give it a try and see what I can do with it some time next week. I've got a 12 hour drive in front of me tomorrow and work to do Sunday (with juuuust enough time to squeeze in my game, hopefully) so this weekend's a no-go on that.
If nothing else it could make an interesting alternate (...yeah) ruleset within all of this, to again facilitate closer to normal class balance.
Thanks for the input!
Rynjin, this is incredible work here.
I cannot offer playtesting (most likely) but I will build some sample characters and post them for you.
One question: the spellcasting. I didn't 100% understand your language - if I elect to buy, say cleric spellcasting, am I forced to progress it up to ninth level? Or can I "stop" at a lower level (say 4th) for 20 points? Finally, is it legal for me to purchase say wizard spells, but only take a bard progression so I never get higher than 6th level spells?
I'm gonna say no to that. If this isn't the way I worded it, that's the way I'll reword it: Your spell list determines your progression (or in the case of classes that share a list, your choice of Prepared or Spontaneous determines your progression).
Thanks for pointing that little unclarity (?) out.
Edit: Actually, re-reading your post, yes. You use the same PROGRESSION as your list, but you're not forced to buy all of it. I.E. you can buy up to 6th level Wizard casting and then stop, yes. You're just stuck with a Wizard's normal spells per day and the like.
Edit 2: Actually, for now, no again. Once you choose a spell progression you must stick with it. Just realized there's no way to monitor new spells per day and such per level if a person decides whether or not he's continuing spellcasting.
So if you choose Wizard progression you're stuck with it from the start to the end, all 9 levels and 90 points of it.
I have ideas for the MAD-SAD issue. And a quick idea for skills. Will post when I get home.
Wait nope, I figured it out.
Final edit for now.
Note: A clarification to the above. Your spell list determines your progression. While you can start any spell list you wish and can choose to halt progression in that spell list at any time, you still use that class’ progression. If you choose to stop a spell list early, you continue to gain spells per day and free spells known up until the point that a new spell level becomes available.
So if you stop at level 6 Wizard casting, you keep gaining new spells per day and free spells known up until level 15 (when 7th level casting becomes available). If you do not purchase 7th level casting, you receive no more spells per day and receive no more free spells known to add to your spellbook (though you can continue to add new level 1-6 spells through the normal means). You can resume at any time, at which point you will continue progressing up to the time the next level of spellcasting becomes available.
Another question. If I want to take a late-game ability (like tongue of the sun and moon) do I have to wait for the level it would normally be available? I expect yes, but it isn't explicitly stated.