|
for a standard (core) rogue, this ability replaces Trapfinding and Trap Sense.
...
Trap Disarmer (Ex):
A rogue with this ability may use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
A rogue of 2nd level or higher gains a competence bonus to all Disable Device checks equal to half her rogue level.
A rogue of 3rd level or higher gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps. Whenever she comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the DM. Her range with this ability increases by 10 feet for every three additional rogue levels she attains. Finally, she gains a +1 bonus for every three rogue levels she has attained to the following:
*to passive Perception checks made to notice a trap,
*to her Initiative check on a round triggered by a sprung trap,
*as a dodge bonus to Reflex saves made to avoid traps,
*as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
...
coupled with house rules to make traps more deadly and interesting, this can give rogue back an old niche.
also, for those that might think that a 6th level rogue being able to spot a trap 20 feet away is ridiculous, remember that 6th level is essentially the beginning of a super-human tier of play...
finally, other class archtypes can still acquire Trapfinding and Trap Sense, which work as written normally, but Trap Disarmer is a special 'umbrella' feature unique to the rogue.
|
|
using this old thread. but since Barbarian gets Trap Sense too, best to leave it discreet from Trapfinding (per the post directly above) - see my simple Trapfinding fix here.
:
At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
...
simple, but synergizes with sneak attack, and is a form of twitchy 'danger sense' anyhow, so why not?
always on the fence about whether to fold in Trap Spotter, into either Trapfinding or Trap Sense, because other classes/archetypes get/steal these features, and i see it as being more rogue exclusive. maybe i should just hand it out at 2nd level for free? it's not like rogue talents are exclusive either...
|
|
what if Trap Sense bonus modified all Reflex and AC (and initiative), not just against traps? ie:
:
At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves, a +1 dodge bonus to AC, and a +1 bonus to initiative. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
too much? change to 3/7/11/15/19?
Here is the version I used in my Rogue (partial) re-write. It is a bit more ambitious.
Trap Sense (Ex): A rogue possesses an intuitive sense concerning all manner of traps and ambushes. Beginning at 2nd level, she adds 1/2 her level: as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps and against attacks that are part of a readied action; to all saving throws associated with traps and their effects (such as spells and poison); to skill checks made to build, disarm, or locate traps; and to any skill checks made to determine who can act in a surprise round. A rogue can also use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
|
|
ambitious - bah! you didn't even fold in Trap Spotter.
i do like that bonus to AC 'against readied actions' bit, but i got to admit i didn't see it the first read through. consider the language: "...as a dodge bonus to AC vs attacks made by traps, as a dodge bonus to AC vs attacks made as a ready action..."
what do you give Barbarian?
one of the problems i go in circles with is wanting to make Trapfinding and Trap Sense cool, but i waffle because other classes can cherry-pick these abilities and i kind of (selfishly) want it for the rogue exclusively...
last, consider granting the bonus to initiative, and utilize the traps as "interesting" link in my first post. (i like to nest cool threads in my threads)
I guess the readied action did get buried. I try to keep things brief and thats what I get. I will implement your fix.
I considered including initiative, but decided that a bonus to being included in surprise rounds fit more in line with "traps and ambushes". Basically, as mentioned in your "interesting" link, traps as they are now represent more of a nuisance than an interesting challenge. Traps have fallen a long ways over the years. Thats why I made "traps" only one part of the class feature. I like the name Trap Sense though.
What do I give the Barbarian? That class feature isn't finished yet, but it is titled Danger Sense. ;)
I like your alternate version best. v2 seems like too much, considering how rare untyped bonuses to AC are, and that the rogue already has a good Reflex.
|
|
Ciaran,
what if you rolled into your Trap Sense the ability to act during the surprise round with a full action?
then, if you use that alternate way of running traps (which i will post again here), the rogue can literally take two actions during that 'trap-triggered' surprise round.
Its funny you should mention that, because I already did it! You and I seem to have a similar way of thinking about the poor, down-trodden rogue.
Ambush (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a rogue can use a full-round action during a surprise round, instead of a move action or a standard action. This ability does not allow her to use both a standard action and a move action.
I have a number of issues with Trapfindging + Trap Sense. Not sure how to handle it with Barbarians, but here's how I would modify the whole package for Rogues to make it more useful in general while keeping most of the current format and all of the functionality it currently has:
Sixth Sense (Ex): A rogue adds 1/2 her level (minimum +1) to Perception checks made to detect against traps, hazards, and haunts. This bonus also applies to Disable Device checks made against traps and allows the rogue to disarm magical traps. Starting at level 4, the rogue can add half of this bonus to her AC, CMD, and saving throws against attacks and effects from traps, hazards, and haunts.
I've done the math and, while the bonus to the rogue's defenses comes in one level later and is on average one point lower throughout her career, this way the bonus applies to ALL defenses she possesses. Also, no more blundering into a collapsing underground corridor because her Trapfinding didn't cover hazards or wandering face-first into a haunt's effect (which is mostly identical to how simple magical traps work).
Its funny you should mention that, because I already did it! You and I seem to have a similar way of thinking about the poor, down-trodden rogue.
Ambush (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a rogue can use a full-round action during a surprise round, instead of a move action or a standard action. This ability does not allow her to use both a standard action and a move action.
This confuses me. Why would you give her the option to do a full-round action but NOT a standard + move?
There are other ways to get both a move and a standard, and I didn't want to negate those. However, if all you's think the distinction in this ability is a wasted one, I will remove it.
I have it posted HERE. Its not a very drastic rewrite. There is no point pool or extra ways to get sneak attack.
In the discussion of rogue trap send vs barbarian trap sense, I am all for making them separate but similar abilities. My plan is to give the barbarian's "danger sense" bonuses to avoiding traps, but not a leg up in surprise rounds. I will also add something else the rogue doesn't get.
Danger Sense (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a +1 bonus as a dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps, and to Reflex saves made to avoid traps. These bonuses against traps increase by +1 at 6th level and every three barbarian levels thereafter. Additionally, any time a barbarian makes a skill check to determine if she is aware of her opponents in a surprise round, she can roll the appropriate skill or she can roll a Wisdom ability check + her barbarian level, whichever is higher.
|
|
Ciaran,
I commented on your rogue rewrite. Why in 'Conversions?' btw-wtf?
For Danger Sense, why the Wisdom clause? Is this for situations when, say, someone is using Disguise or Bluff to conceal a turnabout surprise attack (which there aren't clear rules for sans a special feat or talent)? It's kind of clunky - you could probably say "bonus to skills checks to resist surprise" to get across the same meaning.
Didn't mean to threadjack. Sorry. :)
Level + Wis will never be as high as a maxed out Perception or Sense Motive, so it won't trump an actual skill check. I feel like a barbarian who can't tell when he's being lied to or find secret doors should still have a decent idea when someone is trying to get the drop on him. It fits thematically IMO with Uncanny Dodge.
All that being said, this was a first draft and I wanted to try something new. Its still rough. Are you generally in favor of a the rogue and barbarian feature being identical, or are you OK with divorcing the two?
|
|
they are both intuitive classes - the Barbarian being 'more so' because of earlier access to Uncanny Dodge. that said, i don't think he outta get a forewarning to being tricked - just a fast response time when the ball drops - which is already reflected in his class feature lineup. so, it's weird to me that you call upon WIS - to me it's more of a DX thing.
i struggle myself with the best way to navigate the two classes sharing similar features, splitting active vs reactive 'trap sense,' and wanting to minimize the tampering with the naming of abilities on the class table...
Ah, I misunderstood before. I like level + Dex too. Sounds good. What do you think of the premise of rolling a level check, instead of simply gaining a skill bonus?
|
|
for Barbarian, i think Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense (RAW) is sufficient - those who want to be able to proactively observe forewarnings should put ranks in Perception - the rest of 'em can just have uncanny reaction times even if they aren't particularly observant. meaning, i would just chop that last sentence and the whole level check idea.
that said, i had an idea for your Ambush ability, that thematically addresses a common concern:
Ambush (Ex):
The rogue becomes adept at setting up and responding to well-excuted surprise attacks. She may ignore less than total concealment caused by darkness, fog, and smoke. In addition, if she is able to act in the surprise round, she may take a full unrestricted compliment of actions as if it were a normal round.
?
Doesn't concealment prevent sneak attack? I guess that would help out. I know its a bit of a downgrade, but what if it was being able to ignore less than total concealment but only when attacking flat-footed combatants? That would help with the ambush, but then when everyone is moving, concealment works as normal.
You lost me at the end there... Is that a movie reference?
|
|
no. a character who has not acted in the surprise round is 'actually' flat-footed. a character subjected to the feint maneuver is not - but may be treated 'as if' flat-footed by his feinter. it's a relative thing. and a subtle distinction. i'm just pointing it out because, though subtle, they have different frequencies of occurrence, is all.
Ah. Opponents who are denied dex then.
Ah. Opponents who are denied dex then.
Correct. Numerous 3.X / PF character sheets list three separate categories for AC: normal, touch, and flat-footed. Often, this last category is just taken to mean 'not getting Dex to AC (which negates dodge bonuses to AC as well)', a condition the target has when successfully feinted against, climbing, pinned, or targeted by an unseen opponent. While the actual flat-footed condition does this, it also has a couple other very important distinctions from simply denying the target their Dex mod to AC. A flat-footed target can't take immediate actions or attacks of opportunity (but see Combat Reflexes). Also, being denied Dex to AC does NOT automatically mean you're denied your Dex to your CMD; actual flat-footed denies you that bonus to both defensive numbers. There are a few things that can inflict the flat-footed status besides simple bad luck in an ambush, such as tripping maneuvers with the seven-branched sword or some rogue talents, but they're really rare; 'as if' flat-footed, as rainzax put is, is by far more prevalent.
Regarding concealment and Sneak Attack: for purposes of how well balanced this new Ambush ability might be, you might be interested to know that the Creative Director of Paizo, James Jacobs, agrees with rainzax. Source! Of course, one could simply argue that that's what the Shadow Strike feat is for. Anyways, do with that as you will.
Well on the one hand I dislike making feats, etc. redundant. However, most would agree that a little bump for the rogue isn't going to unsettle things in the grand scheme.
|
|
i'd like, in a Rogue adjustment of any scale, not to have to make a change that interacts with the Barbarian (or for that matter any other class who poaches rogue's class features!), as written, in any way. so, Trap Sense shall remain unmolested.
introducing:
:
A 2nd level rogue has an intuitive sense about the functioning of traps. She may use Disable Device to disarm magical traps. She gains a competence bonus to all Disable Device and Perception skill checks, a dodge bonus to AC both against attacks made as a ready action and against attacks made by traps, and an insight bonus both to initiative and to all saving throws made against traps of all kinds. These bonuses are equal to half her rogue level. This is an extraordinary ability.
01- Sneak Attack
02- Rogue Talents, Advanced Trap Sense, Evasion
03-
04- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
...
eh?