Hey,
The prices for creating custom magic items are on the page 550 of the core rule book. Basically it's spell level * caster level * 2000g for continuous * 0.5/1.5/2/4 depending on duration * 0.5 if level 0 spell * 1.5 if additional effect.
So... I've been thinking of getting the Boots of Striding and Springing for my glass cannon fighter/wizard (who is going for a level of barbarian and possibly alchemist too). They cost 5500g and give +10' and +5 acrobatics.
Now, according to the base estimation price calculation for new magical items, creating a continuous effect item from the spell Expeditious Retreat, which gives you +30' speed, would cost 4000g (1 * 1 * 2000g * 2). I'm guessing 4000g would be a bit cheap for something like +30' speed? Anyone here who has allowed such an item to be made, and if so, how high did you set the price?
Also, I was thinking of these kinds of items:
Bull's Strength (2 * 3 * 2000g * 2)
Enlarge Person (1 * 1 * 2000g * 2 * 1.5 because it's an additional effect)
So an item like this would cost 30000g, not too cheap for what it does I think, but might be a fun item to have for a glass cannon fighter/barbarian -"thing" who also aims to do some sick intimidating.
Then goggles like this:
Identify (1 * 1 * 2000g * 4)
Comprehend Languages (1 * 1 * 2000g * 1.5 * 1.5)
Read Magic (1(0) * 1 * 2000g * 1.5 * 0.5 * 1.5)
This would be 14750g. Goggles that read and comprehend languages and magic, detect magic (Identify does that) and give you a skill bonus. Too overpowered, too cheap? Wasn't thinking these for myself necessarily, more like our wizard.
Are there any general rules that I've missed in calculating base prices for items? Can those prices be trusted at all? Anyone have any other game breakers they've thought up from low level spells?
There are a number of exceptions to the general guideline of “Make a spell last forever” magic item pricing. The classic examples are True Strike, Shield, Mage Armor, Bull’s Strength, etc. None of those spells should be made continuous using the standard formula because each spell gives a numeric bonus which is specifically addressed in the text:
.
Bonus squared x 100 gp for Skill bonus (competence)
Bonus squared x 1,000 gp for Ability bonus (enhancement)
Bonus squared x 1,000 gp for Armor bonus (enhancement)
Bonus squared x 2,000 gp for AC bonus (deflection)
Bonus squared x 2,500 gp for AC bonus (other)1
Bonus squared x 2,000 gp for Natural armor bonus
Bonus squared x 1,000 gp for Save bonus (resistance)
Bonus squared x 2,000 gp for Save bonus (other)1
Bonus squared x 2,000 gp for Weapon bonus (enhancement)
Spell level squared x 1,000 gp Bonus spell
10,000 gp per point over SR 12 for Spell resistance
For other bonuses (like movement) that aren’t specifically addressed, the rule is “use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline”. So, basically, try to copy items that are already in the books.
Sydänyö wrote: Also, I was thinking of these kinds of items:
Bull's Strength (2 * 3 * 2000g * 2)
Enlarge Person (1 * 1 * 2000g * 2 * 1.5 because it's an additional effect)
So an item like this would cost 30000g, not too cheap for what it does I think, but might be a fun item . . .
The item that gives +4 Strength would cost 16,000 gold. That's called a Belt of Giant Strength, and it's already in the game.
Adding Enlarge Person probably shouldn't be done as a continuous effect, or you'll never be medium sized again. (As a GM, I probably wouldn't allow a PC to have an item of continuous Enlarge Person, just because it would be annoying.) It would make more sense to make Enlarge Person work on charges/day.
(1 x 1 x 2000)/5 = 400 gold per charge/day
If you want it combined with the strength item, that's 600g per charge/day.
Sydänyö wrote: Then goggles like this:
Identify (1 * 1 * 2000g * 4)
Comprehend Languages (1 * 1 * 2000g * 1.5 * 1.5)
Read Magic (1(0) * 1 * 2000g * 1.5 * 0.5 * 1.5)
This would be 14750g.
As a GM, I'd allow that item. It's a bit overpriced, so you might want to use Permanency instead.
Sydänyö wrote: Anyone have any other game breakers they've thought up from low level spells? If you've thought up a custom magic item that breaks the game, it's against the rules. Period, that's it.
(I hope nobody minds me splitting my four answers into four posts. I thought it would be an easier format to discuss the sub-topics separately.)
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Blueluck wrote: Adding Enlarge Person probably shouldn't be done as a continuous effect, or you'll never be medium sized again. (As a GM, I probably wouldn't allow a PC to have an item of continuous Enlarge Person, just because it would be annoying.) It would make more sense to make Enlarge Person work on charges/day.
You could always take the item off, or make it use-activated at-will. Anyway, enlarge person is one of those spells that you can make permanent with permanency, at a cost of 2500 gp. So I don't see an inherent problem with an item that gives it continuously.
aaronak wrote: Blueluck wrote: Adding Enlarge Person probably shouldn't be done as a continuous effect, or you'll never be medium sized again. (As a GM, I probably wouldn't allow a PC to have an item of continuous Enlarge Person, just because it would be annoying.) It would make more sense to make Enlarge Person work on charges/day.
You could always take the item off, or make it use-activated at-will. Anyway, enlarge person is one of those spells that you can make permanent with permanency, at a cost of 2500 gp. So I don't see an inherent problem with an item that gives it continuously. Besides the fact once you get hit with a Dispel it goes away permanently? (Unlike a magic item that will auto resume after some time)
Basically it can be made permanent BUT there is a risk involved unlike the item. Just something to keep in mind while weighing something in as 'overpowered' or not because it is on the permanency list.
Skylancer4 wrote: Besides the fact once you get hit with a Dispel it goes away permanently? (Unlike a magic item that will auto resume after some time)
Basically it can be made permanent BUT there is a risk involved unlike the item. Just something to keep in mind while weighing something in as 'overpowered' or not because it is on the permanency list.
True. I'm not saying it needs to be at the same price; in addition to the fact that it's less vulnerable to dispel magic, a magic belt of enlarge person could be taken off, unlike a permanent spell. I'm just pointing out that a continuous enlarge person effect isn't unreasonable, as the rules already provide for a way to get that.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sydänyö wrote: Then goggles like this:
Identify (1 * 1 * 2000g * 4)
Comprehend Languages (1 * 1 * 2000g * 1.5 * 1.5)
Read Magic (1(0) * 1 * 2000g * 1.5 * 0.5 * 1.5)
This would be 14750g. Goggles that read and comprehend languages and magic, detect magic (Identify does that) and give you a skill bonus. Too overpowered, too cheap? Wasn't thinking these for myself necessarily, more like our wizard.
Compare to the Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic, which costs 5200gp to buy, or 2600gp to craft.
14750gp is probably fairly reasonable, in comparison.
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar
abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body, use
the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most
costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly
ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack
roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function
are not similar, and their values are simply added together
to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a
character’s body, each additional power not only has no
discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
So if i understand it right you want to make a set of super Boots of Striding and Springing. This is how i would do it:
Boots 5500
Expeditious retreat (1*1*2000*2*75%)= 7000
Bull Strength (2*3*2000*2*50%)= 36000
Enlarge Person (again would use a /day formula or command word) (1*1*1800*50%)=2700
Grand total for the the Apache Chief boots 51200
aaronak wrote: I'm just pointing out that a continuous enlarge person effect isn't unreasonable, as the rules already provide for a way to get that. I didn't say that a permanent Enlarge Person effect is overpowered or unreasonable, just annoying. I've run campaigns with large PCs, and I don't like it. (Athan half giant, 3.0 centaur, etc.) I'd be happy to run a campaign where monstrous PCs were part of the plan from the beginning, just like I've run all-mounted, all-small, and all-elf campaigns.
As a player and a GM, I'd rather have an item that makes me grow large only when it's desirable. Also, it would be a lot cheaper.
Blueluck wrote: There are a number of exceptions to the general guideline of “Make a spell last forever” magic item pricing. The classic examples are True Strike, Shield, Mage Armor, Bull’s Strength, etc. None of those spells should be made continuous using the standard formula because each spell gives a numeric bonus which is specifically addressed in the text You're right, indeed. That explains why for example Bull's Strength as continuous would cost 18000g, while in thruth it costs only 16000g (4x4x1000g). True Strike would be an interesting one indeed, seeing as though it doesn't really fall in any of the guidelines.
Blueluck wrote: For other bonuses (like movement) that aren’t specifically addressed, the rule is “use the item prices in the item descriptions as a guideline”. So, basically, try to copy items that are already in the books. Yeah... Copying existing items is somewhat pointless in that if a similar item exists already, why go through the trouble of trying to come up with a new one. Still. The +10' boots cost 5500g, and they also give +5 to a skill. That skill part alone would cost 5x5x100g, or in other words 2500g. That would leave the price of +10' at 3000g, except of course the second effect costs 1.5x, so it's not that clear. Either way, the price of +10' is next to nothing. Still, +30' is game breaking. Hard to determine the price of such an item.
Blueluck wrote: Adding Enlarge Person probably shouldn't be done as a continuous effect, or you'll never be medium sized again. (As a GM, I probably wouldn't allow a PC to have an item of continuous Enlarge Person, just because it would be annoying.) It would make more sense to make Enlarge Person work on charges/day. If you have a ring that makes you enlarged, you won't be enlarged once you remove it, so there's no problem with it. Also, our GM doesn't get annoyed by stuff like that, and in fact, it would fit my character and his back story. As someone said later on, enlarge can also be made permanent with a spell, so it should be quite fine to have it as a continous effect in an item.
Blueluck wrote: As a GM, I'd allow that item. It's a bit overpriced, so you might want to use Permanency instead. Permanency can be dispelled, and then it would be tied to a specific character. Having those effects in for example glasses would mean anyone in the group could use them. Also, as far as I know, the Permanency of Pathfinder compared to v3.5 is gimped; there's a specific list of spells that can be made permanent. Then again, we have always aknowledged that the rule book is a guide book, and it has no mind of it's own.
Blueluck wrote: If you've thought up a custom magic item that breaks the game, it's against the rules. Period, that's it. You can have game breaking within the rules. That's a big part of the fun in D&D; trying to find a loophole. Also, we feel like the rule book is just there to guide the GM. The motto we've always lived by is that the GM is always right, and whatever he or she decides is the rule, regardless of what any book says. Still, if something isn't listed or stated in a book, it can be frustrating for the GM to try and be fair in his ruling. That's why it's always good to ask how other people have handled things. That's why listing certain game breaking items would've been helpful, so as not to recreate them for example.
Blueluck wrote: (I hope nobody minds me splitting my four answers into four posts. I thought it would be an easier format to discuss the sub-topics separately.) Yeah no problem other than I don't want to make four replies, and thus had to compile them into one post. :) It's all good though.
ZZTRaider wrote: Compare to the Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic, which costs 5200gp to buy, or 2600gp to craft.
14750gp is probably fairly reasonable, in comparison.
Yeah... That item would give a continuous Detect Magic though, but I think the +9000g should cover that.
Also, not sure if there should be some kind of a multiplier for spells with a range of "personal", since often those spells are quite powerful at low levels.
Blueluck wrote: I didn't say that a permanent Enlarge Person effect is overpowered or unreasonable, just annoying. I've run campaigns with large PCs, and I don't like it. (Athan half giant, 3.0 centaur, etc.) I'd be happy to run a campaign where monstrous PCs were part of the plan from the beginning, just like I've run all-mounted, all-small, and all-elf campaigns.
As a player and a GM, I'd rather have an item that makes me grow large only when it's desirable. Also, it would be a lot cheaper.
Well, there are most likely as many preferences as there are people out there, so we can't really follow rules based on anyone's annoyances, especially not the GM's, who's supposed to be there to help the rest of the group have a fun night. Having the effect in an item though wouldn't make it permanent. Charges per day suggests combat use only, and we do a lot of non-combat roleplaying, where being enlarged would often come in quite handy. For example, it adds to intimidate checks, and also, just as a fashion statement, is pretty damn cool. :)
Mmmmm no. Remember that a skill bonus on an item costs 100gp x the bonus squared, so the +10 bonus from identify is worth 10k GP all on its own.
This item looks to be more like... 22kgp.
10k for the skill boost,
5.6k x1.5 = 8.4k for the read magic and comprehend languages
3750gp for Detect Magic = 22.15k GP.
If the skill boost ONLY applies to identifying magical items you can cut that value in half and then multiply by 1.5, reducing the price to about 15.6k total, so much closer to the 14750 suggested...
I'd call it fifteen grand and let them dance with their bonus 600gp.
Purplefixer wrote: Mmmmm no. Remember that a skill bonus on an item costs 100gp x the bonus squared, so the +10 bonus from identify is worth 10k GP all on its own.
...
If the skill boost ONLY applies to identifying magical items you can cut that value in half
Ahh, so you wouldn't use the Identify spell at all, but break it into the situational skill bonus and Detect Magic? I see. OK, does it state somewhere that you halve the price of the Spellcraft +10 bonus when it's only usable for identifying your items?
Purplefixer wrote: 3750gp for Detect Magic = 22.15k GP. Detect Magic is a level 0 spell, so it's cost is halved. It's price would then be 1x1x2000gx2x0.5, 1 for spell level since using 0 would make it's price 0. 1 for caster level, 2000g for continuous, 2 multiplier since it's 1min/level, and multiplier of 0.5 because it's a level 0 spell. Thus it would be 2000g, multiplied by 1.5 since it's an additional effect, so 3000g total.
So the price of the item would be 10000g (5000g if we halved it like you say) for the +10 skill, 4500g for Comprehend Languages, 3000g for Detect Magic, 2250g for Read Magic, so a total of 19750g, or 14750g if we halve the skill price, as you said.
14750g. Isn't that what I said in the first place? ;)
Mimicking prices in the book for the boots is good advice but you need to know the breakdown on the boots to know what you're recreating.
Boots of springing and striding cost 5500gp and give +10' movement AND +5 acrobatics.
So now you break down the cost.
An item that gives +5 to a skill costs 2500gp ( bonus squared x 100gp)
Subtract 2500gp from 5500gp and you've got 3000gp remainder.
Since multiple enchants on an item is 1.5x the lowest cost enchant, divide 3000gp by 1.5 and you get 2000gp.
Spell level x caster level x 2000gp x duration modifier =
1 x 1 x 2000gp x 1 = 2000gp
So plain boots of striding would cost you 2000gp.
I, personally, don't think 4000gp is too cheap for boots of expeditious retreat and would give them as such. Many others think otherwise and try comparing them to boots of speed that give the same movement bonus but that's because you're granted haste. Boots of speed cost 12000gp.
So your range would be more than 2000gp and less than 12000gp. The table for estimating says 4000gp but it wouldn't be unreasonable to charge 8000gp. Any more than that and I don't think they'd be worth it.
Maybe if it was somewhat exponential for movement and done in base 10' increments it could be like this;
2 to the power of (speed boost/10) x 1000gp. With this formula costs would be;
10' - 2000gp
20' - 4000gp
30' - 8000gp
40' - 16000gp
50' - 32000gp
And so on.
The item for bull strength and enlarge shouldn't be made. Belt of giant strength does the bull strength already and is covered by another formula. Enlarge person can be made permanent on anyone for 2500gp. It's listed under the permanency rules
The goggles would be a no too. Read magic and comprehend languages are 2500gp each under permanency. Identify is the only one left and it's 8000gp to make continuous. You could make it a command word, charged per day thing like 3 times a day your glasses can use identify and they would cost you
Caster level x spell level x 1800gp x 3 / 5
1 x 1 x 1800gp x 3/5 = 1080gp
Well, I can understand why the only continuous speed boost from an item is only 10', being in a group where we rely heavily on square-based movement and a square-based battlefield.
I used to play D&D for years and years and we never used squares or miniatures. There was never any problem, but most definitely movement was never really even an issue.
Once I started Pathfinder in this other group where we use a battlemat, I've definitely noticed the advantage of having a high move speed. I couldn't imagine going back to a 20' armor, and in fact am trying to boost up my movement speed. Taking a level of barbarian and getting boots (since they stack), as well as possibly even getting a 5' feat.
Thus, 30' boots do feel a bit OP.
I ended up creating a set of boots which wouldn't have quite as high a movement speed, but would still give a nice range of bonuses. +10' continuous base speed from the Longstrider spell (used in the 5500g boots), Feather Step to ignore difficult terrain, and a very limited use of Expeditious Retreat (+10' turns into +30' for round or few rounds per day.)
Khrysaor wrote: The item for bull strength and enlarge shouldn't be made. Belt of giant strength does the bull strength already and is covered by another formula. Enlarge person can be made permanent on anyone for 2500gp. It's listed under the permanency rules Well first of all, and no offense, but I don't understand the concept of "don't create a new item when there's a similar item in a catalogue already." True RPG's are about freedom, not limitations, while for example computer games are nothing but limitations. The fact that there aren't more items in the item catalogues is not because they can't exist in the world, but because the publishers don't want to publish a set of a hundred or a thousand phonebooks. I know there are a couple different items which give +strength already. I just don't necessarily want to buy those, if there's a possibility of getting something way cooler.
Secondly, I don't want a completely permanent Enlarge on my character. At least with an item I can return to normal if required, and items can be traded.
Khrysaor wrote: The goggles would be a no too. Read magic and comprehend languages are 2500gp each under permanency. Identify is the only one left and it's 8000gp to make continuous. You could make it a command word, charged per day thing like 3 times a day your glasses can use identify and they would cost you
Caster level x spell level x 1800gp x 3 / 5
1 x...
Again, I personally think the Permanency spell isn't fun at all. Items are much more so. Items can be traded, and items can't be dispelled off your character. Items can also be stolen, which makes it much more interesting. Having permanent spells on you also gives you a magical aura which you can't exactly hide at a whim. So no, not at any point will I be having anything cast on my character via Permanency. As far as Identify goes, there was another post saying it should be handled as adding +10 skill and Detect Magic, then halving the price for the skill because it's a situational use.
Those goggles, or rather glasses, will be put forth as a suggestion to our GM, as will the boots, and most likely the Enlarge+Bull's Strength as an amulet. The fun thing about these items in our campaign is that we don't buy them off some random shopkeeper. They're actually owned by some kind of "boss NPC's" that we may or may not encounter at some point, and the existence of some items we may actually know and will go after those items specifically. :)
Monks get movement speed better than that. By level 9 they have a +30' enhancement, so no stacking other than feats or in typed like barbarian or cleric travel domain. It caps at +60' at level 18. At mid to high levels, if you have an arcane caster, haste is always up in combat so you get a +30' movement anyway. The boots aren't really game breaking although they do make you good at jumping as well. For every +10' above 30' you get a +4 inherent bonus to jumping. Monks get some insane jumping skills.
I'd avoid those fleet feats. They seem nice but movement isn't always the best thing.
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