| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay I'm not entirely sure I got this right because of how ridiculous the damage is but I believe everything is in order.
Ratfolk 20th lvl Pistelero Gunslinger
Starting Dex 20 +5
Dex at 20th level 36 +13 (+5 level, +5 inherit, +6 Belt)
Feats:
1st Rapid Reload
3rd Point-Blank Shot
4th Precise Shot
5th Rapid Shot
7th Deadly Aim
8th Clustered Shots
9th Hammer The Gap
11th Signature Deed (Up Close and Deadly/UCAD)
12th Improved Precise Shot
13th Two-Weapon Fighting
15th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16th Greater Two-Weapong Fighting
17th Weapon Focus (Double-Barreled Pistol)
19th Snap Shot
20th Improved Snap Shot
2x +5 Distance, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock Double-Barreled Pistols
Boots of Speed
2x Weapon Chords
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6
Regular attack: +41/+36/+31/+26 (+20 BAB, +13 Dex, +1 size, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Point-Blank Shot)
Damage: 1d6+22+9d6 (+13 Dex, +1 Point-Blank, +5 enhancement, +3 gun training, +1d6 fire, +1d6 cold, +1d6 acid, +1d6 electricity, +5d6 UCAD)
All out attack(Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Hasted, Deadly Aim, Weapon Chord Shenanigans): +26/+26, +26/+26, +26/+26, +26/+26, +21/+21, +21/+21, +16/+16, +16/+16, +11/+11
Damage Average: 1d6+34+9d6+HtG (+13 Dex, +1 Point-Blank, +5 enhancement, +3 gun training, +12 Deadly Aim, +1d6 fire, +1d6 cold, +1d6 acid, +1d6 electricity, +5d6 UCAD, +1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6/+7/+8/+9/+10/+11/+12/+13/+14/+15/+16/+17 Hammer The Gap)
Assuming all the attacks hit we get something like this for each consecutive attack: 69/70/71/72/73/74/75/76/77/78/79/80/81/82/83/84/85/86 damage
All together that's 1395 points of damage not counting crits! That's enough to drop anything in one round! Did I do this right? I'm not even running this thing in any game, it's just a thought experiment.
Something with epic dr and energy resistance of 10 + to each of the energy types and high touch AC. Also can't work without quick draw, sorry, no way to hold both and reload. Plus, you still need every bullet to be alchemical bullet to get free (if I remember right). Situation based setting with little or no air would stop the guns as well, or rogue/ assassins with one of the variants with super high initiative, pulls of death strick on first round.
Roll a d20 18 times and see how long it takes to roll a 1.
Something with epic dr and energy resistance of 10 + to each of the energy types and high touch AC. Also can't work without quick draw, sorry, no way to hold both and reload. Plus, you still need every bullet to be alchemical bullet to get free (if I remember right). Situation based setting with little or no air would stop the guns as well, or rogue/ assassins with one of the variants with super high initiative, pulls of death strick on first round.
Metal bullets would also work, but the GM of the game would need to be okay with Advanced Firearms (at that point, you could look into getting revolvers).
That said, if you don't wanna worry about that or Weapon Cord Shenanigans, you can always look at, I think, the Pistol of the Infinite Sky (ultimate equipment). It's a +5 Pistol that is automatically reloaded whenever a shot is fired.
he is using a double barreled pistol in each hand. I assume that the left hand gets one less attack per barrel to get only for per.
Remember serisan, he is a pistolerro. He can't misfire after level 13.
Since almost every gunslinger build I've seen on these forums end up like this, I am starting to understand why GM's keep on banning gunslinger... Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?
twf, haste and rapid shot add at most 5 attacks, how are you getting 18 attacks?
Double-Barreled Pistol: This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action.
If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot.
So at a -4 penalty I can effectively double my shots. So it goes something like this.
Main Hand: Hasted shots, rapid shots, first attacks, second attacks, third attacks, fourth attacks. All the while reloading as a free action.Drop gun, retrieve off-hand weapon with weapon chords as a swift action.
Off Hand: First attacks, second attacks, and third attacks. All the while reloading as a free action.
All that at a -15 to my regular attacks. Rule legal as far as I can tell with plenty of free action shenanigans.
True, good catch, was just about to say that. That gives ideally 9 attacks in a round. He is firing both barrels each shot ( an additional -4 penalty) That is how the 18 (-6 for each role dual shot and twf). But without quick draw and alchemical cartridges for every shot it cant be done.
Weapon cord works.... pistol of the infinite sky works a lot better. Because like I said every shot must be with the cartridges, or it is a move action to reload each barrel.
Main Hand: Hasted shots, rapid shots, first attacks, second attacks, third attacks, fourth attacks. All the while reloading as a free action.
Drop gun, retrieve off-hand weapon with weapon chords as a swift action.
Off Hand: First attacks, second attacks, and third attacks. All the while reloading as a free action.
How are you taking your attacks in that order?
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
How are you taking your attacks in that order?
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
Ah thanks for pointing that out, not gonna run this thing but it looks like you would have to do third arm from alchemist dip to make it work.
he is using a double barreled pistol in each hand. I assume that the left hand gets one less attack per barrel to get only for per.
Remember serisan, he is a pistolerro. He can't misfire after level 13.
Since almost every gunslinger build I've seen on these forums end up like this, I am starting to understand why GM's keep on banning gunslinger... Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?
There is (I prefer them), it's just apparently easier to do silly things like the OP is doing with smaller guns.
|
Full attack action gives you 4 attacks per round
Rapid Shot gives 1 additional shot per round
Two-Weapon Fighting reduces the penalties for the 1 additional shot per round
Hasted gives 1 additional shot per round
No idea what you mean by Weapon Chord Shenanigans
So you get a maximum of 7 shots per round.
5 points of your Dex come from some unknown source. Do they stack with your belt? Also not sure what UCAD stands for. But assuming all is correct here. Your average damage per shot is 77 points.
77 times a maximum of 7 shots is 539 before any applicable DR or energy resistances.
So you're right that cannot be correct. You are doing about 856 points of damage too much.
|
So you get a maximum of 7 shots per round.
No his attacks are right you're forgetting TWF and Double Pistols (which double your number of attacks)
I find myself repeatedly reposting this lol, but HERE is a comparison between a single weapon and TWF pistolero build. A pistolero wielding a double pistol pretty much breaks the game DPR wise by 13th level. Dual-Wielding is completely overkill. Still, you have to be within 40ft. to pull it off (guns with distance).
When comparing DPR, I wouldn't use a 20th level Pistolero as balance mechanics break down past level 13. Which is why when people compare DPR they use level 10.
Also, the real question is who would ever want to play a guy chucking 14 d20's in one turn and killing everything!? And who would want to sit across the table from one... If you're going to play a gunslinger have some respect and stick with a one hander. You'll still dominate each encounter, while letting your friends shine too.
There is the catch, I personally would not allow that, pistols are pretty big and that dangling from your hand would suck to reload your weapon.
A glove of storing would work just as well - free action store a pistol whenever you need to reload. Then free action retrieve it.
|
Since almost every gunslinger build I've seen on these forums end up like this, I am starting to understand why GM's keep on banning gunslinger... Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?
I am curious to get to 7th lvl and get the targeting shot deed, seems like it could be very useful and super fun. could be a good signature deed for a musket master, especially nice with that extra range. on the other hand 20% misfires would be a drag...
|
Never found the draw character wise of people tying ropes to barrel loaded pistols and doing some crazy juggling act to fire em... It defeats my suspension of disbelief every time.
Now sword and pistol like a swashbuckling pirate? A single pistol? a musket? Have at it!
You can make a Huge Eidolon and enlarge it for awesome strength bonuses, but is practical RP wise to have something that large with you?
Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?
Just for you. XOXOXOXOXOX <3
Human 20th lvl Musket Master Gunslinger
Starting Dex: 20 +5
20th lvl Dex: 36 +13
Starting Wis: 14 +2
20th lvl Wis: 24 +7
Feats:
1st Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
3rd Rapid Shot
4th Deadly Aim
5th Weapon Focus (Double-Barreled Musket)
7th Clustered Shots
8th Hammer The Gap
9th Improved Critical (Double-Barreled Musket)
11th Signature Deed (Bleeding Wound)
12th Improved Precise Shot
13th Snap Shot
15th Improved Snap Shot
16th Dodge
17th Mobility
19th Deft Shootist Deed
20th Signature Deed (Stunning Shot)
True Grit: Bleeding Wound and Stunning Shot
+5 Distance, Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock Double-Barreled Musket
Boots of Speed
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6
Tome of Wis +4
Manual of Dex +5
Regular Attack: +40/+35/+30/+25
Damage: 1d12+22+4d6 (+13 Dex, +3 Musket Training, +1 Point-Blank Shot, +5 Enhancement, +1d6 fire, +1d6 cold, +1d6 electricity, +1d6 acid)
All out attack (Rapid Shot, Hasted, Deadly Aim): +29/+29, +29/+29, +29/+29, +24/+24, +19/+19, +14/+14
Damage: 1d12+34+4d6+HtG (+13 Dex, +3 Musket Training, +1 Point-Blank Shot, +5 Enhancement, +12 Deadly Aim, +1d6 fire, +1d6 cold, +1d6 electricity, +1d6 acid, +1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6/+7/+8/+9/+10/+11 Hammer The Gap)
So damage wise it looks like this:
54.5/55.5/56.5/57.5/58.5/59.5/60.5/61.5/62.5/63.5/64.5/65.5 per consecutive hit.
Total average damage not counting crits: 720
Anyone notice that the gunslinger iconic is dual-wielding double-barreled pistols?
Anyone notice that the gunslinger iconic is dual-wielding double-barreled pistols?
that was the exact reason why i was waiting for that npc codex--to see how they pulled that off legit (without dubious shenanigans via weapon cords/quickdraw/GoS/weapon juggle (3pp)/etc.)
|
It gets better if you throw in some levels of Alchemist
Human 5th lvl Pistelero/15 Grenadier Vivisectionist
Starting Dex: 17 +3
20th lvl Dex: 34 +12
Starting Int: 13 +1
20th lvl Int: 24 +7
Feats:
1st Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot
2nd
3rd Precise Shot
4th Deadly Aim
5th Rapid Shot
6th SA +1d6
7th Clustered Shots; Discovery (Vestigial Arms); Alchemical Weapon (Move)
8th Weapon Focus (Double Barrled Pistol); SA +2d6
9th Two Weapon Fighting; Discovery (Vestigial Arms)
10th SA +3d6
11th Improved Two Weapon Fighting; Discovery (Wings); Alchemical Weapon (Swift)
12th SA +4d6
13th Improved Precise Shot; Discovery (Spontaneous Healing)
14th SA +5d6
15th Greater Two Weapon Fighting; Discovery (Bottled Ooze)
16th Dodge; SA +6d6
17th Mobility; Discovery (Greater Mutegen)
18th SA +7d6
19th Deft Shootist; Discovery (Dilution)
20th SA +8d6; Alchemical Weapon (Free)
+5 Distance, Greater Reliable, Seeking Double-Barreled Pistol x2
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6
Boots of Haste
Headband of Vast Intelligence +6
Tome of Int +4
Manual of Dex +5
Greater Sniper Googles
Mule Back Cords
Attacks, Assuming Sneak Attack
Regular Attack: +35/+30/+25/+20
Damage: 1d8+16+8d6 (+12 Dex, +1 Point-Blank Shot, +3 Enhancement, +8d6 Sneak Attack)
All out attack with Mutagen and Greater Invisibility Extract: (Rapid Shot, Shooting booth barrels, Alchemical Weapon (Alchemist's Fire), Deadly Aim): +27/+27, +27/+27, +27/+27, +27/+27, +22/+22, +22/+22, +17/+17, +17/+17, +12/+12
Damage: 1d8+54+9d6 (+15 Dex, +1 Point-Blank Shot, +5 Enhancement, +10 Deadly Aim, +8d6 Sneak Attack, +7 Int, +1d6 Fire, +16 (+2 per die of Sneak Attack damage))
So damage wise it looks like this:
Average Damage Per Hit: 90
Total average damage not counting crits: 1,620
So you are going against an effective AC of 10 (barring deflection bonuses and the like) because they are Flat Footed and you shoot against Touch AC. You get more damage and you aren't a one trick pony thanks to your extracts. I love the gunslinger but I have come to the realization that after 5th level you are better suited multi-classing if you have the money.
|
Technically, you can only fire with both barrels at the same time from a single db-pistol ONCE per full-round attack. So, no flurry of bullets, only one bonus attack roll per round and per weapon (which is already awesome enough).
each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action
Compare to the musket's description:
each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack
|
|
Technically, you can only fire with both barrels at the same time from a single db-pistol ONCE per full-round attack. So, no flurry of bullets, only one bonus attack roll per round and per weapon (which is already awesome enough).
each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action
It says the same action, it doesn't designate a type of action. In this case the action is firing the weapon. Each time you fire it is an independent action, so it can be used multiple times in the same attack sequence.
|
|
"Firing the weapon" is not an action in the rules. You fire a weapon either as an attack action which is made as a standard action, or as an itterative attack made as a full-round attack, which is by itself a full-round action.
A developer already clarified the fact that if using the deadshot deed (as a full-round action)with a db pistol, the double-tap attack would be "one" of the deadshot's attack rolls, not all of them.
The fact there is a difference between the description of the db pistol and musket looks clear enough to me about the original intent, and for having seen firearms handled in both of the different fashions discussed here during play, I can say that the "once per attack action and per pistol" and "once per attack roll with a musket" are the most balanced rules.
Or, it may also be that the OP is right and the class allows "ridiculously high potential damage", instead of the current and already good enough "very high potential damage" ?
|
|
"Firing the weapon" is not an action in the rules. You fire a weapon either as an attack action which is made as a standard action, or as an itterative attack made as a full-round attack, which is by itself a full-round action.
A developer already clarified the fact that if using the deadshot deed (as a full-round action)with a db pistol, the double-tap attack would be "one" of the deadshot's attack rolls, not all of them.The fact there is a difference between the description of the db pistol and musket looks clear enough to me about the original intent, and for having seen firearms handled in both of the different fashions discussed here during play, I can say that the "once per attack action and per pistol" and "once per attack roll with a musket" are the most balanced rules.
Or, it may also be that the OP is right and the class allows "ridiculously high potential damage", instead of the current and already good enough "very high potential damage" ?
Rather than continue to argue this I will leave it at this, I disagree with your opinion and you appear to be in the minority on your ruling. Dead-shot has no bearing on the normal full attack action. The weapon has not been clarified one way or another so the decision remains up to the GM. Many builds on these boards have used DB pistols and fire both shots on each attack and none of these have been called out as illegal by developers.
Rather than continue to argue this I will leave it at this, I disagree with your opinion and you appear to be in the minority on your ruling. Dead-shot has no bearing on the normal full attack action. The weapon has not been clarified one way or another so the decision remains up to the GM. Many builds on these boards have used DB pistols and fire both shots on each attack and none of these have been called out as illegal by developers."Firing the weapon" is not an action in the rules. You fire a weapon either as an attack action which is made as a standard action, or as an itterative attack made as a full-round attack, which is by itself a full-round action.
A developer already clarified the fact that if using the deadshot deed (as a full-round action)with a db pistol, the double-tap attack would be "one" of the deadshot's attack rolls, not all of them.The fact there is a difference between the description of the db pistol and musket looks clear enough to me about the original intent, and for having seen firearms handled in both of the different fashions discussed here during play, I can say that the "once per attack action and per pistol" and "once per attack roll with a musket" are the most balanced rules.
Or, it may also be that the OP is right and the class allows "ridiculously high potential damage", instead of the current and already good enough "very high potential damage" ?
Just want to say Maxximilius is right. You need to refer to the actions in combat table (here, scroll down). It also defines what an "action" means in Pathfinder terms further below:
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
So you would only get one total extra shot each round from the two barrels, not multiply your attacks from it.
It's still awesome, particularly since you can use it with standard action (and theoretically swift action if there is a way for a gunslinger to fire with that).
Also, since you argue that many builds have been posted and not been called out as illegal, thus this interpretation would be minority is not valid IMO:
1. In my experience comparatively few people are interested in the gunslinger class. From all the people I know and have been gaming with, not a single one has expressed interest in playing one. And of all the people I know, only three read these boards, and only two (including me!) actually post at all.
2. Just because developers have not criticized builds, does not mean they endorse them.
3. I see pretty few gunslinger threads on these boards compared to all other classes. Personally I usually also skip over them, and I am pretty sure that I am not alone with that. So the "minority" may actually be a lot larger than you think ;-)
As always you are free to interpret this in your own games. If you come to other GMs or PFS I would expect a different ruling on it, though. In my groups (total 25+ people) I do not expect any to follow your interpretation of it. So I respectfully disagree with your interpretation :-)
By the way, this is one more instance that clarifies to me why the class is not "broken" :-)
|
|
Just to clarify my position, when the description says, "with the same action," you have a far to narrow view of what an action is in this game. It was not meant to refer to a specific action, rather it should say, "whenever you pull the trigger you can fire both barrels at once." But in order to save space and reduce word count they opted for with the same action phrasing. However, like I said myself and a good number of others disagree with you.
Just to clarify my position, when the description says, "with the same action," you have a far to narrow view of what an action is in this game. It was not meant to refer to a specific action, rather it should say, "whenever you pull the trigger you can fire both barrels at once." But in order to save space and reduce word count they opted for with the same action phrasing. However, like I said myself and a good number of others disagree with you.
That's fine :-)
Let me clarify on this as well, though: The language in Pathfinder is pretty precise. "Action" is defined and used as a term through the rules in a set fashion.
This is the default, not a "far too narrow view" IMO :-)
If you want more feedback, particularly regarding the rules, consider posting it in the Rules Forum, possibly even FAQing it.
Saw it, replied there briefly :-)
Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?
I'm partial to single barrel muskets myself. That way the gold flies out of my barrel a little slower.
(However, this build is based more around survival than DPR)
Why is no one ever happy with one gun? Why is there no love for muskets?I'm partial to single barrel muskets myself. That way the gold flies out of my barrel a little slower.
(However, this build is based more around survival than DPR)
Not that he survived very long:)
No, not against a will save with a 31 DC.
|
|
Rather than continue to argue this I will leave it at this, I disagree with your opinion and you appear to be in the minority on your ruling. Dead-shot has no bearing on the normal full attack action. The weapon has not been clarified one way or another so the decision remains up to the GM. Many builds on these boards have used DB pistols and fire both shots on each attack and none of these have been called out as illegal by developers.
Actually, I thought the same thing and I was the first to attempt this kind of build to understand (and break) how the rules work. A player had a gunslinger in our games for several months, using a musket, and it took us several readings to fully get how the firearm rules are supposed to work. It's only recently that I found out about the "action =/= attack" thing, and no, reading the rules as they are intended with the appropriate semiology isn't having a narrow point of view - things are named as they are for good reasons, which are balance and comprehension. You will never see something written like "if you move during your round", as this is bad formating. Moving may be performing a move action or moving from a square, or it may even be performing any action requiring to move bodyparts. There, "action" or "attack" are specific terms meaning a specific kind of situation.
Also, sorry, but the question HAS been clarified. Quoting the designer himself :
1. It is one action, two attack rolls. I fire as a standard action, it is two attack rolls. If I fire as part of a full-attack action, it is one of those attacks, but two attack rolls.
2. You can use both shots of a double barrel pistol with dead shot. Both attacks take a -4 to the attack roll. Each shot gains each attack roll with the same effect, but with lower accuracy.
... which means the "once per action and per pistol" rule was intended, instead of the "once per attack roll" currently interpreted (and again, I thought it worked for each attack too until recently).
Just because no developer comes to explain this does not mean the people building characters this way are wrong - it took Paizo several years to understand that flurry of blows was used differently than written by the overwhelming majority of players.|
|
the devs. explination to the first question is very confusing, but I think he is saying that double pistol shot is one of the attacks, as in "an attack that is a part of the full-attack" i.e. in a full attack round you get (say) three attacks, 1st bab, 2nd bab, and rapid shot, the "double tap", referring to the original question, is one of those attacks, as in the 1st bab, but this does not mean that the other attacks being made couldnt also be attacks made with both barrels. in other words, your first attack could be both barrels with the -4 to hit for both, your 2nd bab could be a single barrel shot and your rapid shot attack could be single barrel as well. or they could all be double barrel shots. again, this isnt totally clear, but if you look to his response to the 3rd question, which is about an all out attack with twf and double pistols at 20th lvl, I think he clarifies his answer:
firing all but 8 bullets (four attacks, 8 attack rolls) with the double pistol (at base attack plus double barrel pistol penalties at +12/+7/+2/-3 for each)
four attacks but 8 rolls-- double pistol means two rolls per attack. the +12/+7/+2/-3 is the bab at 20th lvl -4 for twf and -4 for double pistol.
and furthermoreto get the off-handed weapon attacks (two at +12 and two at +7, just counting base attack and penalties for two-weapon fighting and the double barrel pistol)
again the +12 and the +7 are the babs and there are two because of the double pistol