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I'm posting this question here because it is Pathfinder Society specific for our Ontario group. Someone is posting on our website trying to find a way to have his samurai ride a tiger, and we're trying to figure out if a druid dip would make that possible.
I was under the impression that animal companion levels stack, so I'm personally of the belief that a level of druid should open up the druid list of animal companions, and that the samurai levels would continue the animal companion's progression so long as the animal is at least vaguely ridable. What's the RAW, and how does PFS interpret multiple animal companion classes?
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Is he married to a Samurai? Cuz if he's a Cavalier, he'd have the Expert Trainer class feature and thus be able to take the Beast Rider archetype (which allows tigers at 4th level). He could still be a "samurai", but he wouldn't have Resolve or the weapon feats. To me, it's an easy choice: tiger without MCing or quick draw and a katana for free. He could still spend the feats to get quick draw and the katana profiency if he really wanted.
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Took me a while but I found it in the CRB:
Class Level: This is the character’s druid level. The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics.
Long-time PFS players may be confused because there used to be a line in the Guide to Organized Play about the number of animals a player could bring to the table that said "This means if you’re a Ranger 5/Druid 5, you need to pick which animal companion is your combat animal." This was removed in 4.0 because it was a misinterpretation of the rules (or the CRB got errata, I don't know which).
So strictly by RAW if he starts with a druid level and takes a tiger as his companion, his samurai levels would stack to determine the stats of the tiger. But here's the tricky part:
The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount. A Medium samurai can select a camel or a horse. A Small samurai can select a pony or a wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM may approve other animals as suitable mounts.
Unless the GM (Mike or Mark) approves the tiger as a suitable mount, we're in a nebulous place where the tiger isn't a legal choice for the samurai but he already has it. And if the GM approves the tiger as a suitable mount, he wouldn't need the druid level at all. In a home game; sure! The druid dip is a big enough "tax". Probably not going to fly in PFS which relies on consistent interpretation of the rules and strives for as few exceptions as possible. Mike has really been striving to cut down on the "corner cases" that need to be interpreted individually.
My advice is the same as dMax. Go for Beast Rider Cavalier if you really want a tiger.
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This issue was clarified in detail a few hours ago here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=512?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#25565
I think Beast Rider Cavalier is the way to go.
That said, I wish Beast Rider was available to the Samurai. I mean...a tiger riding Samurai is as cool as it gets!
Does anyone know why the decision was made to keep Beast Rider away from the Samurai Alternate Class?
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I believe the reasoning was because the Alternate Classes have Archetypes of their own (Sword Saint for example), so the ones for the main class are meant for the main class and that is all.
Also, Belafon is correct. Even with a level dip in Druid, unless you are a Beast Rider Cavalier, the tiger will not count as your 'mount' for the benefits that ability has over a normal animal you are riding on. Your AC Penalty will apply to your Ride checks, etc.
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This issue was clarified in detail a few hours ago here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=512?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#25565
I think Beast Rider Cavalier is the way to go.
That said, I wish Beast Rider was available to the Samurai. I mean...a tiger riding Samurai is as cool as it gets!
Does anyone know why the decision was made to keep Beast Rider away from the Samurai Alternate Class?
It wasn't so much of a decision to keep it away from the Samurai, but rather a choice of what features the Samurai (as a Super-Archetype of the Cavalier) would share with a Cavalier and what features would be unique. The Samurai loses many of the party oriented and charge features of the Cavalier to be better with weapons and have the neat Resolve feature. The reason a Samurai can't be a Beast Rider is that he gets Mounted Archer instead of Expert Trainer. So it's just a side effect of giving the Samurai a flavorful feature, in place of one needed for that archetype.
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Just remember that James (while awesome) is not an official rules source. He's more of a "lore" guy than a "RAW" guy. Most of his answers are "common sense" interpretations that he would make in his home game where keeping things moving and fun is important and anything overpowering can be retroactively dealt with. The rules people (SKR or Bulmahn) don't usually post until they've researched it to death and are sure it's working the way they want it to. For example there's still an issue with the line I quoted above about levels stacking since when you combine
Class Level: This is the character’s druid level. The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics.
with
This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the samurai's level as his effective druid level.
You get confusion. In a home game you just say. "Nah. You have a level one tiger forever unless you take more druid levels." but in PFS players will argue. My personal ruling would be that if you take a tiger companion as a druid you've blocked yourself out of samurai forever. (This isn't unprecedented. If you take an arcane bonded item as a wizard, you've blocked yourself out of witch since you can't have both an arcane bonded item and a familiar.)
Again, that's a GM ruling and I can't point to a rule that says "you can only have one animal companion" just to the stacking noted in the druid entry and the fact that EVERY other class with an animal companion references the druid entry. Otherwise I could do some multiclassing silliness and end up with 5 level 11 animal companions as a druid 1/cavalier 1/ranger(falconer) 1/oracle of nature 1/paladin 7. Oooh. New Cheese Grinder idea!Actually, now I am concerned that someone is going to try this in PFS. My search-fu says the stacking has been brought up several times before but I can't find a golem response.
Oh, for anyone wandering in... hyperlink!
James Jacobs Responds
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Actually, now I am concerned that someone is going to try this in PFS. My search-fu says the stacking has been brought up several times before but I can't find a golem response.
Oh, for anyone wandering in......
Belafon,
Your comment about stacking Druid levels with Samurai Mount levels is the exact issue I'm having trouble resolving.
I'd love an official clarification on this.
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I think James Jacobs is absolutely wrong on this one. There is no reason to have anything say that any other class levels that grant an animal companion stack with Druid for the animal companion if a Druid with a Horse doesn’t stack with Samurai who chose Horse as the mount.
As others have said, James is not someone to go to for definitive rules questions, as he just rules as he would rule it in his home game, not as a developer or as an official clarification on how the rule actually works.
However, for animal companion level stacking, you would go by the most stringent class. If Samurai doesn’t allow for Tiger, and as a Druid you took a Tiger, then you would have both an animal companion and a separate mount. You would need to choose which you bring into any given combat (which means you’d have to dismount if you chose the Tiger). And both companions would be at the level of their respective class.
Taking Beast Rider archetype for cavalier means you don’t need any levels in Druid.
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Actually, now I am concerned that someone is going to try this in PFS. My search-fu says the stacking has been brought up several times before but I can't find a golem response.
Oh, for anyone wandering in......Belafon,
Your comment about stacking Druid levels with Samurai Mount levels is the exact issue I'm having trouble resolving.
I'd love an official clarification on this.
You probably aren’t going to get one. I doubt Mike will offer a PFS specific clarification on this.
As such, at best, you can expect:
1) In PFS, per the FAQ, Samurai are limited to the mount types written specifically in the class or expanded upon by any other legal source.
2) In PFS, if a Druid level is taken, you can expect at best table variance on the legality of this adding Tiger to the available mounts for Samurai.
I would wager that most GM’s would not allow this as a legal option at their table in PFS. So you’d be best waiting on a clarification (which may never come) from the game developers. This interpretation is more valid based on how James Jacobs interprets the rule, even though his interpretation can’t be considered a clarification.
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I still wish there was some clarity on a druid/samurai multiclass.
It's explicitly stated that Druid Animal Companion levels and Samurai Mount Levels stack.
Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
Mount (Ex): A samurai gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the samurai's level as his effective druid level.
This means a multiclass Druid 1/ Samurai 6 has a stacked total of 7 Druid levels re: Animal Companion stats.
Firstly, if the effects stack, it must be for one, not two separate animal companions.
Secondly, the larger question remains: why have the stacking quality at all if there is no way for characters to actually benefit from it?
I see the point that for PFS play only the Camel and Horse are listed as Samurai mounts, but if the Druid/Samurai multiclass character can summon a tiger upon attaining 7 Druid levels (stacked) I see no reason why Samurai Mount rules supersede Druid Levels IF Samurai mount levels and Druid Animal companion levels are interchangeable and of equal value when stacked.
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Counterpoints:
1) Eldritch Heritage - This feat gives you "effective" Sorcerer levels for the purposes of a bloodline ability. Your effective sorcerer level is your class level -2, but it doesn't give you sorcerer levels.
2) Channeling - Channeling from two different classes don't stack. A Paladin channels at an "effective" Cleric level equal to their Paladin level.
For ease of calculating companion stats, and the ability to use feats geared towards druids animal companions, they used that effective language. It doesn't mean they are the same thing or that they stack.
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Counterpoints:
1) Eldritch Heritage - This feat gives you "effective" Sorcerer levels for the purposes of a bloodline ability. Your effective sorcerer level is your class level -2, but it doesn't give you sorcerer levels.
2) Channeling - Channeling from two different classes don't stack. A Paladin channels at an "effective" Cleric level equal to their Paladin level.
For ease of calculating companion stats, and the ability to use feats geared towards druids animal companions, they used that effective language. It doesn't mean they are the same thing or that they stack.
The reason the Samurai/Druid example differs is because of the explicit use of the term "stack" which doesn't appear to be involved with your two counter points.
I see your point about ease of calculating Mount stats, but that's not the issue. The rules could have easily said, use Animal Companions Druid table to determine Mount abilities. Instead, the developers left the doorway to Druid levels wide open.
The issue is, the Druid class explicitly states that druid levels stack (see my quote above). If it stacks - it stacks.
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I still wish there was some clarity on a druid/samurai multiclass.
It's explicitly stated that Druid Animal Companion levels and Samurai Mount Levels stack.
Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.Mount (Ex): A samurai gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the samurai's level as his effective druid level.This means a multiclass Druid 1/ Samurai 6 has a stacked total of 7 Druid levels re: Animal Companion stats.
Firstly, if the effects stack, it must be for one, not two separate animal companions.
Secondly, the larger question remains: why have the stacking quality at all if there is no way for characters to actually benefit from it?
I see the point that for PFS play only the Camel and Horse are listed as Samurai mounts, but if the Druid/Samurai multiclass character can summon a tiger upon attaining 7 Druid levels (stacked) I see no reason why Samurai Mount rules supersede Druid Levels IF Samurai mount levels and Druid Animal companion levels are interchangeable and of equal value when stacked.
Because the most stringent class restriction must be adhered to for the stacking benefit to apply.
If you chose a Horse or Camel as a Druid, then yes, they should stack fine.
But taking a dip in Druid does not automatically expand your list of available mounts.
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Because the most stringent class restriction must be adhered to for the stacking benefit to apply.
If you chose a Horse or Camel as a Druid, then yes, they should stack fine.
But taking a dip in Druid does not automatically expand your list of available mounts.
Fair enough but the mount description says:
The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount.
It goes on to mention horse and camel, but the quote above does not exclude tiger by any means. In fact, it includes tiger as a level 7 druid.
I'm sure a PFS game would exclude tiger as it is not listed explicitly but RAW, the line I quoted seems to anticipate the idea that mounts from other sources are legal and possible. In fact, this line supports the legality of non Horse and Camel mounts.
The mount description continues:
The GM may approve other animals as suitable mounts.[\quote]
This line discusses GM discretion in a campaign but it is not connected to the line I quoted - otherwise the developers would have included the same point twice. That would not make sense. It's either they're two separate points or the developers repeated themselves. But RAW it can't treat it as a repeated point. It must be treated as two separate points.
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Fair enough but the mount description says:
The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount.It goes on to mention horse and camel, but the quote above does not exclude tiger by any means. In fact, it includes tiger as a level 7 druid.
I'm sure a PFS game would exclude tiger as it is not listed explicitly but RAW, the line I quoted seems to anticipate the idea that mounts from other sources are legal and possible. In fact, this line supports the legality of non Horse and Camel mounts.
The mount description continues:
The GM may approve other animals as suitable mounts.This line discusses GM discretion in a campaign but it is not connected to the line I quoted - otherwise the developers would have included the same point twice. That would not make sense. It's either they're two separate points or the developers repeated themselves. But RAW it can't treat it as a repeated point. It must be treated as two separate points.
The FAQ states that only those mounts listed on APG p33 are available to cavaliers; for medium PCs, that's a horse or camel.
A cavalier multiclassing into druid would see his mount becoming more powerful.
A druid with a horse or camel multiclassing into cavalier would see his animal companion (mount) becoming more powerful.
A druid with an AC other than horse or camel multiclassing into cavalier must release his previous companion from service in order to gain a new one (his mount).
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Because the most stringent class restriction must be adhered to for the stacking benefit to apply.
If you chose a Horse or Camel as a Druid, then yes, they should stack fine.
But taking a dip in Druid does not automatically expand your list of available mounts.
Fair enough but the mount description says:
The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and that is suitable as a mount.It goes on to mention horse and camel, but the quote above does not exclude tiger by any means. In fact, it includes tiger as a level 7 druid.
I'm sure a PFS game would exclude tiger as it is not listed explicitly but RAW, the line I quoted seems to anticipate the idea that mounts from other sources are legal and possible. In fact, this line supports the legality of non Horse and Camel mounts.
The mount description continues:
The GM may approve other animals as suitable mounts.This line discusses GM discretion in a campaign but it is not connected to the line I quoted - otherwise the developers would have included the same point twice. That would not make sense. It's either they're two separate points or the developers repeated themselves. But RAW it can't treat it as a repeated point. It must be treated as two separate points.
As Paz said, campaign specific rules indicate that only the animals listed for your specific class are available for that class. The phrase saying that "at GM discretion other animals may be available" does not apply in PFS.
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My understanding is that the only way to add additional animal companion choices to a class is to take something that specifically says that it adds such and such animals to your list. Just taking a dip in another class will not suffice. Examples of such would be half-orc with beast rider feat or 1 lvl of mammoth rider.
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My understanding is that the only way to add additional animal companion choices to a class is to take something that specifically says that it adds such and such animals to your list. Just taking a dip in another class will not suffice. Examples of such would be half-orc with beast rider feat or 1 lvl of mammoth rider.
That's a really good, concise, clear, and succinct way of saying it.
the FAQ states "As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play <b>except when granted from another legal source</b>." -bolding mine- I would argue that dipping into druid would open up a legal source or aquiring a Large Animal Companion, which by its being Large and an animal companion as per the rules of both cavalier and druid (stacking) makes it a suitable mount.
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the FAQ states "As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play <b>except when granted from another legal source</b>." -bolding mine- I would argue that dipping into druid would open up a legal source or aquiring a Large Animal Companion, which by its being Large and an animal companion as per the rules of both cavalier and druid (stacking) makes it a suitable mount.
But it doesn't specifically say that it opens up the options for other classes.
Beast Rider archetype does. Mammoth Rider archetype does.
You have to go with precedence.
But without a FAQ from the developers, you can expect table variation.
I would expect that most GM's would probably defer to it not being allowed. YMMV.
In this case, it behooves you to not bring a character to the table when you aren't sure if the GM would deem it legal or not.
the FAQ states "As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play <b>except when granted from another legal source</b>." -bolding mine- I would argue that dipping into druid would open up a legal source or aquiring a Large Animal Companion, which by its being Large and an animal companion as per the rules of both cavalier and druid (stacking) makes it a suitable mount.That's kind of like saying a 8th wizard taking one level of cleric should be able to prepare Raise Dead spells.
if caster levels stacked (which they don't), but I believe someone earlier said that these abilities did stack for determining the CL for the animal companion. so if a cavilier has a level 7 tiger as a companion, buy virtue of it being a large creature and from a legal source it seems to fit the definition of legal mount.
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Thanks for the suggestion on the Beast Rider feat Lab_Rat. I'll pass that on! :)
Take care on suggesting the Orc/HOrc feat over the Beast Rider archetype. You have to be 7th level to take it and the only two mounts it gives you that the archetype don't are Pteranadon and Rhinoceros. Your mount also doesn't get free Endurance nor the ability to become large or huge at 7th level.
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Thanks for the suggestion on the Beast Rider feat Lab_Rat. I'll pass that on! :)Take care on suggesting the Orc/HOrc feat over the Beast Rider archetype. You have to be 7th level to take it and the only two mounts it gives you that the archetype don't are Pteranadon and Rhinoceros. Your mount also doesn't get free Endurance nor the ability to become large or huge at 7th level.
Of course. I just know my player was looking for options that would allow him to keep himself a samurai, and it's possible riding an elephant or rhino is even more attractive than a tiger.
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That's a lot more like saying "my 6 levels of wizard and my 1 level of witch/arcane sorcerer stack for familiar purposes and now at level 7 I take the improved familiar feat." You know, 'cause wizard saysthe FAQ states "As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play <b>except when granted from another legal source</b>." -bolding mine- I would argue that dipping into druid would open up a legal source or aquiring a Large Animal Companion, which by its being Large and an animal companion as per the rules of both cavalier and druid (stacking) makes it a suitable mount.That's kind of like saying a 8th wizard taking one level of cleric should be able to prepare Raise Dead spells.
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
Or do you think a level 5 Wizard/level 1 Witch/level 1 sorcerer has 3 different familiars (and can only use 1 at a time in PFS)? (No sarcasm here--I'm wondering what you think the point of "The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics." was if not to make the levels stack)
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The FAQ states that only those mounts listed on APG p33 are available to cavaliers; for medium PCs, that's a horse or camel.
A cavalier multiclassing into druid would see his mount becoming more powerful.
A druid with a horse or camel multiclassing into cavalier would see his animal companion (mount) becoming more powerful.
A druid with an AC other than horse or camel multiclassing into cavalier must release his previous companion from service in order to gain a new one (his mount).
I agree that in a PFS game the mounts are limited to those explicitly listed.
I'm curious about the mechanic in a more general (home game/campaign sense) too. If not for the FAQ, could the Tiger qualify?
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I'm curious about the mechanic in a more general (home game/campaign sense) too. If not for the FAQ, could the Tiger qualify?
Not to sound cliche, but that would be up to the GM to decide. In my homegame, I have a player who previously rode a T-Rex. The dino is dead now, but he got an exotic saddle, and I had him change out for the Beast Rider archetype once that got out, but I couldnt see any reason why he couldnt use it. YMMV. :/
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Not to sound cliche, but that would be up to the GM to decide. In my homegame, I have a player who previously rode a T-Rex. The dino is dead now, but he got an exotic saddle, and I had him change out for the Beast Rider archetype once that got out, but I couldnt see any reason why he couldnt use it. YMMV. :/
I'm curious about the mechanic in a more general (home game/campaign sense) too. If not for the FAQ, could the Tiger qualify?
You're right that it is GM discretion in a home game, but there shouldn't have to be a need for discretion in this case. There should be an answer and from that clarity, a GM could decide. Why decide from obscurity and muddle when a clear answer should be available?
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The FAQ states that only those mounts listed on APG p33 are available to cavaliers; for medium PCs, that's a horse or camel.
A cavalier multiclassing into druid would see his mount becoming more powerful.
A druid with a horse or camel multiclassing into cavalier would see his animal companion (mount) becoming more powerful.
A druid with an AC other than horse or camel multiclassing into cavalier must release his previous companion from service in order to gain a new one (his mount).I agree that in a PFS game the mounts are limited to those explicitly listed.
I'm curious about the mechanic in a more general (home game/campaign sense) too. If not for the FAQ, could the Tiger qualify?
In a home game, you can do whatever you want if you are a GM, or whatever your GM allows if you aren't.
I'd probably allow a Druid dip to increase the mounts for Samurai. Either that, or I'd ask the player to write up an Samurai organization that specifically has tigers as mounts, and then I'd allow it under the (GM may allow other suitable creatures) clause.
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if caster levels stacked (which they don't), but I believe someone earlier said that these abilities did stack for determining the CL for the animal companion. so if a cavilier has a level 7 tiger as a companion, buy virtue of it being a large creature and from a legal source it seems to fit the definition of legal mount.the FAQ states "As a cavalier, you may select a mount from those listed on page 33 of the Advanced Player's Guide. No additional mounts are legal in Pathfinder Society Organized Play <b>except when granted from another legal source</b>." -bolding mine- I would argue that dipping into druid would open up a legal source or aquiring a Large Animal Companion, which by its being Large and an animal companion as per the rules of both cavalier and druid (stacking) makes it a suitable mount.That's kind of like saying a 8th wizard taking one level of cleric should be able to prepare Raise Dead spells.
The legal source point is that it must be from a legal source that expands its mount list. Unfortunately, no tiger riding samurai is how I read it. Truly a shame, as I rather liked the idea of it.
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The legal source point is that it must be from a legal source that expands its mount list. Unfortunately, no tiger riding samurai is how I read it. Truly a shame, as I rather liked the idea of it.
Thanks for your insight Alexander.
So the entire issue boils down to this: the need to find an official source we can cite to prove Alexander's assertion (quote above). The citation must also clearly and explicitly take Druid Animal Companion/Samurai Mount stacking into consideration or else it leaves the entire issue unresolved.
Can anyone find the citation(s)? :)
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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The legal source point is that it must be from a legal source that expands its mount list. Unfortunately, no tiger riding samurai is how I read it. Truly a shame, as I rather liked the idea of it.Thanks for your insight Alexander.
So the entire issue boils down to this: the need to find an official source we can cite to prove Alexander's assertion (quote above). The citation must also clearly and explicitly take Druid Animal Companion/Samurai Mount stacking into consideration or else it leaves the entire issue unresolved.
Can anyone find the citation(s)? :)
Alexander's assertion is correct. No tiger riding samurai in PFS.
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So let me see if I get this straight, as the normal mount/AC rules are confusing, JJ's comments seem to go against RAW, and the beast master cav rules are even worse.
The beast rider cav states " The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character). . . . a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear)."
Could a level 7 medium beast rider cavelier who multiclassed into druid ride a crocodile mount? The croc mount would be large as per the rules cited above.
Could a level 4 small beast rider cavelier who multiclassed into druid ride a crocodile mount? A croc animal companion becomes medium at level 4.
