In the Glassworks (spoilers)


Rise of the Runelords


I just finished running this fight for the second time. The first time was for one group, but the campaign ended early - they never even finished Thistletop.

The second time some of the players from the first group wanted to reboot that campaign. It had been months, though (possibly even over a year, I don't recall), and the foreknowledge of three out of five players didn't really assist them. (The other two are new.)

But the reason I'm writing this is because essentially the same thing happened both times, and I want to know how common it is.

The fight is against a small horde of goblins (8) and Tsuto Kaijitsu. Tsuto is downstairs with his sister, while the goblins are in the main glassmaking area. What is supposed to happen is that the fight starts, Tsuto hears it, and comes to assist. He is supposed to work with the goblins.

But it never goes down that way. Due to a combination of sleep spells, burning hands, or alchemist bombs, my players manage to defeat the goblins within two rounds. So the fight is over, or very nearly so, by the time Tsuto even gets upstairs. And since he has no flanking buddies left, I never get to use his sneak attacks. Further, because of the doors in the room between the stairs down and the main factory area, both fights tend to cluster around a doorway where only a few can get through, and the turns mean ranged weapons aren't nearly as effective for characters stuck in back. So there were a few occasions of, "Well, I can't do anything this turn, so I'll wait."

Anybody else run into this? My players are all level 1, and while there are 5 of them instead of 4, I don't think that would impact it so dramatically. (Especially since they are on a 15 point buy instead of 20.)

Grand Lodge

Tsuto died in his room in my campaign. This was the original version, and Tsuto was not as strong. However, I still misplayed him by leaving him in his room. If I get the opportunity to run RotR again, I will put Tsuto in the Glassworks working on Lonjiku.

This does two things:

1.) Make for a tougher fight in this vast room.

2.) Provides the opportunity for the party to see first hand that Tsuto killed Lonjiku.

Look forward to reading more about your campaign.


Or give him a few more goblin buddies so he can have some flanking?

A lot of "suggested tactics" seem to assume that the fights will last 4-6 rounds at least. This is by no means guaranteed, particularly against players who build well and know their tactics. A few more mooks help to make things longer.

Grand Lodge

What I did in mine is that he bluffed the party into thinking that he showed up to meet his sister and saw the goblins and hid from them. Pretending to be visibly shaken, one of the PCs offered to take him home. (While passing through an alleyway, he knocked the poor PC unconscious and ran off to tell Nualia of the PCs.)


Sounds like your players are skilled, and are getting good rolls. I suggest, in a scenario like this, keeping the goblins spread out. Have some at the back throwing glass bottles and things while the PCs fight the ones at the front. Once a few die, the others should actively start making a retreat to regroup with Tsuto. Some of them could take actions like flipping tables to impede the PCs' ability to chase those at the very back. Likely some would die as they were retreating, but hopefully not all of them.

If that alone isn't enough, more goblins would help even the fight.


Exactly what Gluttony said.

My players are fairly good optimizers and in the first round had killed off 1/3 of the goblins (I had increased the mook count already). I had the rest of the goblins flee to Tsuto in a roundabout maner because the PC's were blocking the direct way to the stairs (leading the PC's on a merry chase). The PC's caught up to two goblins which slowed them. When the players came down the stairs Tsuto had a ready action with a bow and almost took out one player right off the bat. As it was he dropped two more players and almost got away.


Aeshuura wrote:
What I did in mine is that he bluffed the party into thinking that he showed up to meet his sister and saw the goblins and hid from them. Pretending to be visibly shaken, one of the PCs offered to take him home. (While passing through an alleyway, he knocked the poor PC unconscious and ran off to tell Nualia of the PCs.)

I absolutely LOVE this idea. I am going to modify it a tad… having a NPC who is working with the PCs (but really a baddie) offering to take Tsuto home, pretending to get knocked out in order to let his ally escape scratch-free yet remaining a mole. Great idea!


The OP's fight doesn't sound much different than my campaign. The pc's were not really deputized merely asked to "stay visible in town." So they did not feel comfortable forcing their way in through the front door and instead made their way to the back. That put them right near the Glassworks proper. Hearing the goblins up to no good, the burst in and killed several in 3 or 4 rounds. Goblin morale failed (as depicted in the AP) and they fled downstairs to get Tsuto. The party regrouped for a round or two (doing some healing) before following, allowing the goblins to setup a small ambush. It didn't work very well. And as has been observed before on multiple threads, Tsuto is not well suited for the Glassworks basement - it inhibits his movement too much. After the last of his goblin allied died, he fled down the tunnel. The human cleric and dwarf fighter couldn't keep up but the elvish wizard and half-elven bard could. After it became clear he couldn't outrun them, Tsuto turned to fight at the beach end of the tunnel. He managed the drop the bard but the wizard took him out with an acid dart. The pc's were not very impressed with what they found at the glassworks (Lonjitsu and the other workmen) so they decided that if Tsuto stablized on his own, they'd let him live. (They hadn't even found Ameiko yet.) He didn't. The fact they dragged him back somewhat ignominiously to the Glassworks probably didn't help.


I had 6 20-point buy 2nd level PCs, so I had a couple goblin commandos with bows in the south side of the main room. (The rest of the goblins engaged in the typical glass-chucking, table-jumping crazed antics.) When it was obvious the longshanks were carving their way through their allies with ease, the two commandos immediately fled down to warn Tsuto, who had them setup a barricade of barrels to fire their bows from behind. The goblins still got killed pretty quickly when the PCs came down the stairs, but Tsuto made a good showing of himself (though the fact that I'd changed him to a Zen Archer [Point-Blank Mastery helps a lot in this fight]/Talented Rogue, re-worked his feats and skills, and gave him an extra level helped a lot) shooting the PCs, tumbling through them and surprising the first PC to provoke an AoO from him with a kick to the face (they assumed he was just a rogue and since he was using a bow he couldn't make AoOs.) He probably would have escaped, too, if they hadn't taken him from just above his "run away" threshold to dead with a longspear crit from the mutated alchemist.


After reading a lot of posts on the forum, I was prepared with a sliding scale of goblins. I had two of the group of goblins immediately run out to grab "Boss". My group didn't have much area of effect, so the fight was a bit more time consuming - so Tsuto showed up with the pair of goblins to join the fight and still had a few of the rest set up to flank. He ended up dropping our rogue with a critical stunning fist. If we had a caster with burning hands, sleep, etc. I would have had a few more goblins come in from the other side.


For the record the fight in the glassworks is supposed to be a fairly big deal but is not really meant to be that dangerous. The goblins are still using stupid tactics to deliberately give the 1st-level players a chance. So a set of well-optimized 20-point characters should probably clean up.

Tsuto is not supposed to come up and join the fight unless goblins go downstairs to fetch him. When the goblins are down to three members or less they are supposed to run for it. The goblins should use the opposite exit that the players came in, and they are pretty mobile so they have a chance to make it. But players that are good at chasing things may be able to catch them and the reward for doing so is that they fight Tsuto alone which is much easier.

Some players have felt that Tsuto even alone was very difficult for a first-level party. Tsuto can use acrobatics to get past the tanks to get at the squishy characters, and is smart enough to do so. If people are failing their saves to his stunning fist he can be pretty dangerous.

Overall if you find the fight in the glassworks is over too fast, add more goblins. This one goblin was under the table carving doodles into the flesh of one of the dead workers. Another goblin was hanging from the chandelier - you didn't notice him. Two more goblins walked in the back door when they heard the ruckus.

Maybe make up a more interesting goblin if you have time (like a barbarian goblin or a sorcerer goblin). Or download the "We Be Goblins" module and use one of the player-character goblins as the goblin "leader."

Peet

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