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The Pathfinder society is a living organization.
The Shadow Lodge was formed because some own members of the Pathfinder Society regarded the Decemverate as Elitist Jerks. But a year later some of them realized that what they tried to replace the Pathfinder with was worse - and they joined them to uphold the rights and well-being of the ordinary Pathfinder.
And there are many areas where Pathfinders are despised.
So is the Society on Golarion likeable or not ?
Both. It depends on the view point, on the area in Golarion, on the individual in the society you deal with. And on your own motivation.
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I played my first Pathfinder Society scenario just before I read Seekers of Secrets. I had a good time. I intended to play more. I opened Seekers of Secrets excited to learn more about what my PC was involved with, and what I read in that first chapter made me swear off organized play entirely because what I read was so repugnant to me. The CN rogue I ran in the Society game would never submit to the initiation process; I couldn't even envision her going through that humiliation as part of her backstory. I have never played another Pathfinder Society session.
I want to address this. If you don't like the way the Pathfinder Society is written up as an organization in the game world, then that's fine.
But to give up on organized play because of it? The fact that Pathfinders supposedly go through this training process is ignorable backstory, and you can easily come up with an excuse to justify why your PC was able to skip it. Most players in organized play don't even know about the training stuff in Seekers of Secrets. I didn't know about it until reading this thread, and I own that book. I mostly just use it as a reference for ioun stones. I knew there was supposedly some training that Pathfinders go through, but I wasn't aware of the details.
So if you want to avoid the Society in your home games, that's fine. But don't avoid the organized play system just because of that. You'll just deprive yourself of a lot of fun playing some pretty cool adventures and meeting new people to play with if you do.
To the OP:
I thank you for your valid interpertation.
I think you are more right than not.
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The thing is, the strictness of boarding schools and the power of old boys' clubs created and enforced the standards of Victorian culture. That culture was much more highly structured and regimented than our present Western (especially American) culture.
That is to say, the strict boarding school style of education produced a certain kind of person. That kind of person is very different from what the Pathfinders are portrayed as being.
In the real world, when you have training like that, you end up with something way different from Pathfinders. You end up with soldiers, monks, or Victorian gentlemen. Not PCs.
This here is one of the main things I've noticed In most the Ap fiction I've read and Erzen in the comics (Cant really speak about the novels) The pathfinders in them dont come across as the spent several years cleaning chamber pot types indeed I get the feel that most of them would have been way to free spirited to put up with that sort of thing.
Kevin Mack:
Why must a person's current level of free spiritedness apply retroactively?
I have met many people throughout my life that were under the thumb of parents and other authority figures only to go completely nuts the moment they are on their own. Being a free spirit is only one element of what you will or will not endure in your formative years.
Additionally, there are many reasons a chaotic person could be choose to endure such treatment for a few years. Power lust, fear, nowhere else to go, hope for a better life. The list is endless.
Finally, not all people who go in are treated that way. The ones who make friends, take control etc probably get others to do the work for them (for friendship, favors, or through less polite means). I can just as easily see chaotic people do this as orderly people.
To Everyone: People are far more than the 2dimensional characters that they are being painted as. Chaotic people can have moments of lawfulness. They are not 100% chaotic. Nobody is ever 100% of anything.
- Gauss
Thank You all for a great thread. I enjoy reading these kinds of conversations.
I do have to say I am glad the Pathfinder Society is not a "Harper" clone. I wanted something more.
I have been a member of many real organizations. I have yet to find any organization that did not include silly political issues, people who were jerks and people who were saints, and many odd elements overall.
Pathfinder Society is a complex mix of people with various goals and points of view. Great, that is what I would expect from an organization of that size and power level.
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To put this in context I've been collecting pathfinder since near the beginning and one thing that has always struck me is how the Pathfinder society come across as pretty unlikable. Between Seeker of secrets, What happend in the Elando story and the current fiction the society comes across as a bunch of Elitest jerks.
Now my question is this supposed to be the case? Reading shatted star and the entombed with the phareoes module series the society in them comes across as much more reasonable and likable (As well as many of the society characters in the adventure path fiction). So is the society as presented in Seeker of secrets the norm (I believe it has been mentioned there were a fair few mistakes in that) or is it more a case of early work which is now no longer cannon?
I had a mildly positive impression of the Pathfinder Society until I read this week in Artifact and Legends that they slew members of the church of Iomedae, stole the Thorncrown of Iomedae, and kept it, with its powers for paladins, hidden for centuries. So now, not so positive. :-D
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Joana, by today's standards an old boys club is a bad thing. However, by historical standards it brought us many advancements and was the standard way of doing business. Most of the organizations of that era were elitist. After all, that was the era of the monarchy and the nobility. If you judge that by today's (democratic) standards of course it will seem like a bad organization.
- Gauss
P.S. Paizo has to walk a fine line when writing stuff like this. They want a gritty 'real' world feeling but if they go too far into that they get this thread. A modern negative response to a historical style organization. Most historical organizations would not be popular today. We have different standards today.
The thing is, the strictness of boarding schools and the power of old boys' clubs created and enforced the standards of Victorian culture. That culture was much more highly structured and regimented than our present Western (especially American) culture.
That is to say, the strict boarding school style of education produced a certain kind of person. That kind of person is very different from what the Pathfinders are portrayed as being.
In the real world, when you have training like that, you end up with something way different from Pathfinders. You end up with soldiers, monks, or Victorian gentlemen. Not PCs.
Read the unabridged version of Kim. When he is at the boarding school the guys with him tell tales of repulsing native uprising at their father plantation and other adventures. It is only a small paragraph but was written at the time of boarding schools.
The solution of the people crated by boarding schools to the problem of China exports were the Opiums wars. Those weren't wars against opium, were wars to be able to sell opium in China.
The Victorian gentleman was the guy that commanded sailing clippers and run the tea trade routes.
So maybe your vision of the Victorian gentleman isn't so correct.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I think anyone who has been invested in the PFS OP will note that over the past year, we have gotten away from the training academy elements that are presented in Seekers of Secrets. In my home game, I don't even use most of the Seeker of Secrets book.
I think you will find that what we have tried to do with the Pathfinders through OP is move away from an overbearing, restrictive academy tracking setting, to most Pathfinders being accepted for what they are able to contribute back to the Society. I hope to move the Society more towards a Warehouse 13 type of organization in the coming future. We do have some ideas in place to hopefully tweak the idea of what the Society really is.
Pathfinder Society Season 4 spoiler:
Yes, the Pathfinders are a neutral organization. However, it is in their interest to make sure evil, or for that matter good, leaders don't put artifacts and relics to use that could be detrimental to the world at large. I also think the Decimverate see themselves as more capable of knowing what could cause more harm than good to the world (and just about every monarch and leader on Golarion probably have their own thoughts about the same).
Are there people that scrub floors and chamber pots in the Grand Lodge? Sure. Are they all Pathfinder initiates? Nope. I like to think of it as a peasant who has never been on an adventure, doesnt know anyone of importance, but aspires to be a Pathfinder, and sees it as the first steps to an inside track of receiving an invite by showing their dedication to the Society through hardwork. However, by and large, membership is from meritorious field actions that led to the advancement of the Society (See the module Master of the Fallen Fortress for a in game field promotion).
Sorry that this became long winded. But, I just wanted to step in a emphasize that the Pathfinder Society, at least in organized play, is moving away from the years of training mentality (or hazing or whatever you want to call it) and allowing characters to join because of what they can give back to the Society (and world at large), whether that be discovery of lost operas or spell books, the recovery of lost religious or historical artifacts, or protecting other members who can get those items back to the Grand Lodge. Maybe the Society will one day open a museum to show off all items recovered...maybe not. But, that is how I view the Society in my own home game (and I'm currently running Shatter Star and no PCs are Society members), and that is how I'm trying to refocus what the Society is in Organized Play.
I had a mildly positive impression of the Pathfinder Society until I read this week in Artifact and Legends that they slew members of the church of Iomedae, stole the Thorncrown of Iomedae, and kept it, with its powers for paladins, hidden for centuries. So now, not so positive. :-DTo put this in context I've been collecting pathfinder since near the beginning and one thing that has always struck me is how the Pathfinder society come across as pretty unlikable. Between Seeker of secrets, What happend in the Elando story and the current fiction the society comes across as a bunch of Elitest jerks.
Now my question is this supposed to be the case? Reading shatted star and the entombed with the phareoes module series the society in them comes across as much more reasonable and likable (As well as many of the society characters in the adventure path fiction). So is the society as presented in Seeker of secrets the norm (I believe it has been mentioned there were a fair few mistakes in that) or is it more a case of early work which is now no longer cannon?
To be fair who actually stole the crown is an unknown mystery. All that can be said for certain is that the Society got a hold of the artifact, (quite possibly as a third or fourth in the chain of acquisition) and refused to yield it to Iomedae's followers. And it's not that they withheld it for frivoulous reason, it was the only known artifact to at least partially survive the Test of the Starstone, so I would be extremely surprised if the Society passed up an opportunity to learn about the Test itself.
By it's lights the Society has as much right to the Thornecrown as do the Paladins of Iomedae.
The greed of "we want the only thing that survived" might not be frivolous, but it's not a good reason to withhold a holy artifact from the paladins who could use it to defend the weak and innocent from evil. The Pathfinder Society has as much right to keep the Thorncrown of Iowmedae from the church of Iowmedae as Kivas Fajo had to keep Data in HIS collection.
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the depiction of the Society seems to be getting pettier and more corrupt.....
which is why my character is part of the shadow lodge....
not only to hold those in power accountable.. but to bring them down if/when the time comes.
to be honest, if I was running a home game I would have given the players a chance to do that all ready.
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Then how does the Pathfinder Society differ from a Thieves Guild?
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Is this shift in focus canonical, or merely for the purposes of PFS OP?
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Is this shift in focus canonical, or merely for the purposes of PFS OP?
This is an excellent question.
Maybe the Society will one day open a museum to show off all items recovered...maybe not.
Maybe the Society will be better at running a non-deadly museum than the Blakroses...maybe not.
Maybe the Society will one day open a museum to show off all items recovered...maybe not.Maybe the Society will be better at running a non-deadly museum than the Blakroses...maybe not.
I've heard no complaints from citizens or no reports of deaths of Blakros family members inside the museum itself. Should I send a group of my Pathfinders to your residence to take a .... "report"?
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I guess I'm in the minority here, but I feel like the training the Pathfinder Society provides is one of the things preventing them from being entirely unlikable. Yes, the kinds of things that initiates are required to do sometimes come off as petty fraternity hazing rituals, but that's all in between training sessions with experienced adventurers whose advice comes from hard-earned field experience. This, to me, justifies some of the Society's arrogance and holier-than-thou attitudes about adventuring; they may still be glorified tomb robbers, but their training means that, in theory, they're less likely to get themselves (or anyone else) killed, or to accidentally destroy or overlook the artifacts they're trying to recover.
Also, as far as I can recall, Pathfinders get years of training totally free of charge. I'd say that scrubbing a few chamberpots beats decades of student debt any day. :P
I was gonna be all "I dial down the training in my home campaign when it comes up, and here's how..." but Michael's pretty well summed up how I do it. Not that it's come up much, but in my game I throw in a little bit of the Jedi/Padawan thing in there, too.
It boils down to this, in my game: If the character's an established adventurer and can get a respected Pathfinder (preferably a Venture-Captain) to vouch for them, then you're in. (And, for better or worse, being a noble is likely to assist with that.) If you're a random dirt farmer who hears about the Society and thinks "Hm, all manner of loot and adventure can be mine for the cost of a 10% cut that they apparently don't even enforce? Sold!" Then they're going to put you to work until you can prove yourself, find a mentor willing to take you along in the field, or both.
(And by 'put you to work,' I mean you're going to have to do some menial labor in between training sessions and probably some Miyagi-esque lessons thrown in on top of that.)
The greed of "we want the only thing that survived" might not be frivolous, but it's not a good reason to withhold a holy artifact from the paladins who could use it to defend the weak and innocent from evil. The Pathfinder Society has as much right to keep the Thorncrown of Iowmedae from the church of Iowmedae as Kivas Fajo had to keep Data in HIS collection.
A more to the point theological and philosophical question is where would the Thornecrown of Iomedae be doing the most good? Yes, the paladins of Iomedae certainly want it as an object of veneration, contemplation, and inspiration, which is nice, and they also want it as a potent weapon which they will use for holy causes, which is again nice by definition, but will it actually lead to the greatest good for the greatest number?
The Pathfinder Society currently has the Shining Crusade as part of it, and the Shining Crusade has paladins in it, and some of those paladins are undoubtedly followers of Iomedae. Chances that they're allowed to be part of the research project that's figuring out what makes the crown tick? Pretty good. Chances that they might learn something to help the cause of goodness? Also pretty good.
Compared with the paladins who just want to take it to the Worldwound and toss it in on the off chance it seals the rift--Whoops! That didn't work! Oh well, at least we had noble and honorable intentions. That's what counts, right?--it's probably doing more good in the long term exactly where it is now.
There's also the fact that if Iomedae really wanted the paladins to have it, she could just reach down, pick it up, and hand it to them. Since she hasn't, either she considers it unimportant or she feels that where it currently is is certainly good enough.
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Is it bad that when I first read the title I thought it was asking if the Pathfinder Society was unkillable? A villain with the stated goal of destroying the Pathfinder Society would be interesting, I think...
Also, the Silver Crusade and Shining Crusade aren't the same things. The Shining Crusade was an actual crusade called by Aroden's faithful to stop the Whispering Tyrant, while the Silver Crusade is more along the lines of a club within a club for Pathfinders who want to turn the Society's resources to making the world a better place. But you are right that there are likely Iomedeans in the Pathfinders who feel the Thorncrown is okay where it is right now and aren't interested in reclaiming it for the faith.
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The greed of "we want the only thing that survived" might not be frivolous, but it's not a good reason to withhold a holy artifact from the paladins who could use it to defend the weak and innocent from evil. The Pathfinder Society has as much right to keep the Thorncrown of Iowmedae from the church of Iowmedae as Kivas Fajo had to keep Data in HIS collection.
Holy mixed Metaphors, Batman!
As to the Paladin aspect, ever heard of Elena Faith-hold? Or Beldinas Pilofiro? Not to mention how the crown can be destroyed? I can see good reasons to keep it away from the Paladins. (Plus, as far as I can tell, the crown isn't self aware and sentient.)
I always felt like the Pathfinder Society as presented in the fluff of Golarion products (distinct from the Society as an organic gaming organization) was like the bad archeologist at the beginning of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
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Is it bad that when I first read the title I thought it was asking if the Pathfinder Society was unkillable? A villain with the stated goal of destroying the Pathfinder Society would be interesting, I think...
Also, the Silver Crusade and Shining Crusade aren't the same things. The Shining Crusade was an actual crusade called by Aroden's faithful to stop the Whispering Tyrant, while the Silver Crusade is more along the lines of a club within a club for Pathfinders who want to turn the Society's resources to making the world a better place. But you are right that there are likely Iomedeans in the Pathfinders who feel the Thorncrown is okay where it is right now and aren't interested in reclaiming it for the faith.
My copy of Artifacts and Legends says neither group has it.
Hmm, that would be an interesting faction mission for the Silver Crusade* The Society has a lead on the crown...
*
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I think anyone who has been invested in the PFS OP will note that over the past year, we have gotten away from the training academy elements that are presented in Seekers of Secrets. In my home game, I don't even use most of the Seeker of Secrets book.
I think you will find that what we have tried to do with the Pathfinders through OP is move away from an overbearing, restrictive academy tracking setting, to most Pathfinders being accepted for what they are able to contribute back to the Society. I hope to move the Society more towards a Warehouse 13 type of organization in the coming future. We do have some ideas in place to hopefully tweak the idea of what the Society really is.
Pathfinder Society Season 4 spoiler:
** spoiler omitted **
Now we just need craft feats so I can make a Claudia-Wizard. "Knock Knock Knock."
More seriously, I prefer the 'Warehouse 13' aspect with the idea of the Venture Captains being like Artie, and the Decembervant being like the Regents (which I guess makes Torch like McPherson).
Hell, one of my players (the former DM) would have been at odds with the Pathfinders had his Human Wizard from Absalom joined our group in Kingmaker. We both realized after discussing everything that the Wizard would rather keep any artifacts he finds in the Stolen Lands protected by his own kingdom (and his fellow players would have agreed most likely), rather than hand them over to people he considers nothing but glorified thieves pretending to be scholars.
I'm pretty sure his character is also aware of the fact that the Aspis Consortium isn't much better...
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Back in my day, we've trudge and slosh through miles of sewers to dig through a 10' tall pile of otyugh dung for a 50gp gem and a ring worth 100gp.
And we liked it.
We're all getting soft.
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I happened to like the pathfinder society presented in the seeker of secrets.
I suppose to me it made sense that the Pathfinder Society was kind of a "medieval fantasy national geographic society".
As was mentioned up thread, the training part reminded people a little of a boarding school.
It also reminds me of an academic institution. You do your training and then go out in the field to do your research bring it back and get published.
Your character could start out as an initiate, have various masters you like and don't like (much like a boarding school) and eventually after a three years of training, "earn your spurrs" as a pathfinder......I would guess that is all back story.
To me this makes sense. If you look at the age of adult hood in the Pathfinder Core Rule book for humans, the beginning age is 15 years. Then to determine the random starting age of a character once he has achieved 1st level varies, for the rogue sorcerer, you add 1d4 years, bard, fighter 1d6 years, and the cleric, wizard 2d6 years. so to me it makes that sometime between the ages of 15 and 18 your character could very well have been an initiate of the pathfinder society and spent roughly three years training.
But again this is all up to the players and the GMS, for those who don't like the education idea, there are field commissions.
I suppose after you are "sworn in" to explore cooperate and report, presumably as a newly minted pathfinder you are asigned to a venture captain, who then sends you out to explore promising leads for ruins etc...
As your character discovers more important and interesting finds, which he reports back to his/or her venture captain, and then is relayed back to the grand lodge in Absalom, your character becomes more renowned and respected, and may eventually earn a promotion to venture captain.
So, it also has elements of an "explorer's club" as well. I think somebody mentioned "old boy's club".
Well this may not be everyones cup of tea......but in our home games we are free to shape the pathfinder society to match our own tastes.
I know the Pathfinder Society Organized Play Campaign there are all sorts of Factions in it...which can be confusing. but in your own game you can decide if the sczarni ( mafia) or the silver crusade ( Lawful good group of paladins& clerics etc) have lots of influence in the Society or not. which of course in a home game you can choose wether to include them or not.
As for the Pathfinder society being a neutral organization? In the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign I have done my part to try and "nudge" the pathfinder society to more of a "good" alignment by playing and GMing and I now have a 14 level Mystic Theurge and a 10 level Inquisitor both who work for the Andoran Faction, and once the the silver crusade was introduced, i have 5 or 6 lower level characters who are Silver Crusade faction.
I'm not ever sure what the point i was making was......maybe i was just that I liked seeker of secrets, enjoyed it as background materiel, and through playing and GMing PFS, got to interact with some of the Venture captains ilustraited in the Seeker of Secrets like Aldrem Hestern, Osprey, Drendle Drang etc....
I suppose at the end of the day, for me the seeker of secrets helps to give me an idea for how the Pathfinder society works, and provides for me some loose structure upon which to start a campaign other then the old "you meet in a bar" and through the venture captains gives me a ready made campaign hook to give the player's characters something to do...
I just dont see how there is not eventually a "war" between PFS and the paladins after they figure out PFS is holding stuff they consider "stolen"
I'm not personally interested in organized play, so I've downplayed a lot of the inter-faction aspect of the society. Actually, the Pathfinders as a whole haven't played much of a role in my home game yet... although this will change in a few sessions.
To echo what several others have mentioned, I see the Pathfinder Society as very much akin to the 19th- and early 20th-century version of the National Geographic Society. They are honestly interested in exploring the uncharted reaches of the world, and learning about the past, but also in raiding tombs and ruins for artifacts that they can study or just display in museums.
I see the leadership of the Pathfinder Society to be mostly academics and financial backers of expeditions, while the rank-and-file are more like seasoned experts and adventurers. While the Society does have a training program for those who seek employment with them, they also will actively recruit promising prospects and generally waive the initiation process for them. These prospects are typically adventurers who have made a name for themselves-- people like Player Characters.
Politics. What you can't prevent by brute force, you accomplish by other ways. Invading a sovereign nation to make war on the Grand Lodge brings other complications to such a scenario. Absalom is not some banana state to take such an action lightly.I just dont see how there is not eventually a "war" between PFS and the paladins after they figure out PFS is holding stuff they consider "stolen"
So you would expect them to do something?
Like either sending Paladins as spies? Or having them join with the purpose of studying the items? Or an internal takeover?Invasion is not the only military option. I was just wondering if it was consistant that the Paladins "do something"
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Politics. What you can't prevent by brute force, you accomplish by other ways. Invading a sovereign nation to make war on the Grand Lodge brings other complications to such a scenario. Absalom is not some banana state to take such an action lightly.I just dont see how there is not eventually a "war" between PFS and the paladins after they figure out PFS is holding stuff they consider "stolen"
So you would expect them to do something?
Like either sending Paladins as spies? Or having them join with the purpose of studying the items? Or an internal takeover?Invasion is not the only military option. I was just wondering if it was consistant that the Paladins "do something"
It's 'Paladins' Not "A nation."
1) They are limited by their ethics. When you aren't prone to lying, cheating and stealing, it limits your oportunities to lie, cheat and steel.
2) It's clear in the item's write up they have tried. It was moved to, what, 8 different lodges before it was lost in Galt?
3) Other factions want to keep it out of the Paladins' hands as much as the Paladins want it back. Sure Cheliax would love to lock it away or destroy it (as would Nidal, the demons of the Worldwound, etc etc.) But why waste their own efforts when it (prior to its loss) was already secure? Heck. We don't know how many times it was moved because a cultist of Shax was the guy the Paladin bought raiding equipment from, and the rope he sold broke at a critical moment?.
4) Once you get the thing, who uses it? Good does not mean unified. Does the church of Saranae really want to see the Inheritor's church become the surpreme church? Or Erastil for that matter?
Politics. What you can't prevent by brute force, you accomplish by other ways. Invading a sovereign nation to make war on the Grand Lodge brings other complications to such a scenario. Absalom is not some banana state to take such an action lightly.I just dont see how there is not eventually a "war" between PFS and the paladins after they figure out PFS is holding stuff they consider "stolen"
So you would expect them to do something?
Like either sending Paladins as spies? Or having them join with the purpose of studying the items? Or an internal takeover?Invasion is not the only military option. I was just wondering if it was consistant that the Paladins "do something"
It's 'Paladins' Not "A nation."
1) They are limited by their ethics. When you aren't prone to lying, cheating and stealing, it limits your oportunities to lie, cheat and steel.
2) It's clear in the item's write up they have tried. It was moved to, what, 8 different lodges before it was lost in Galt?
3) Other factions want to keep it out of the Paladins' hands as much as the Paladins want it back. Sure Cheliax would love to lock it away or destroy it (as would Nidal, the demons of the Worldwound, etc etc.) But why waste their own efforts when it (prior to its loss) was already secure? Heck. We don't know how many times it was moved because a cultist of Shax was the guy the Paladin bought raiding equipment from, and the rope he sold broke at a critical moment?.
4) Once you get the thing, who uses it? Good does not mean unified. Does the church of Saranae really want to see the Inheritor's church become the surpreme church? Or Erastil for that matter?
#4 agree
#3 mostly agree#2 Agree
#1 Disagre...Really? Could not the Paladins claim that its Stolen property? Since they are not the proper owners, which paladin would NOT voluntarilly sacfarice their paladin abilities to recover the item for a church. (they would give up their lives for less).
I just see that any interaction between PFS and Paladins--complicated.
Question:
Has the PFS ever returned an item or relased something to save village-person-kingdom? I dont know Cannon.
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As to #1. Who are they going to go to court over? There's no world court or the like. Who can claim juristiction? For that matter, what is the statute of limitations on receiving stolen property?
(Aside I misread it, it was 'Keep away' for 8 centuries, not 8 lodges)
I don't know if they have released anything, barring the spoiler above. OTOH, look at the Warehouses. Like I said elsewhere, the Tesla guns and Farnsworths can be duplicated (Claudia's done both, and H.G made plenty of magi-tech) Yet they don't release those artifacts to be duplicated and only issue them to agents. If the Society (willingly) released items to change the balance of power somewhere, they go from 'artifact hoarding sneaks, thieves and vagabonds' to 'potential foes/allies/targets.'
Absalom has withstood a lot, would it stand a 'five armies' style battle of every nation in the Inner Sea chomping to get at the Grand Lodge? If the Society used the Blessed elctroshock therapy relic to cure Zon Kuthon, would Urgotha stand aside and let her be 'cured'? IF they figured out how to use the crown to strip the deityhood from (say) Iomedae, would the other Starstone gods (and maybe Irori) sit on the sidelines when they could be next?
Or what if they were able to free Cheliax. Would the other Nations stand by lest they be deemed 'evil' next?
Just like Warehouse 13 requires neutrality to function, so does the Society need to venere of neutrality to stay "Those meddling kids and their Decembervate" and not "World moving figures."
As to #1. Who are they going to go to court over? There's no world court or the like. Who can claim juristiction? For that matter, what is the statute of limitations on receiving stolen property?
(Aside I misread it, it was 'Keep away' for 8 centuries, not 8 lodges)
I don't know if they have released anything, barring the spoiler above. OTOH, look at the Warehouses. Like I said elsewhere, the Tesla guns and Farnsworths can be duplicated (Claudia's done both, and H.G made plenty of magi-tech) Yet they don't release those artifacts to be duplicated and only issue them to agents. If the Society (willingly) released items to change the balance of power somewhere, they go from 'artifact hoarding sneaks, thieves and vagabonds' to 'potential foes/allies/targets.'
Absalom has withstood a lot, would it stand a 'five armies' style battle of every nation in the Inner Sea chomping to get at the Grand Lodge? If the Society used the Blessed elctroshock therapy relic to cure Zon Kuthon, would Urgotha stand aside and let her be 'cured'? IF they figured out how to use the crown to strip the deityhood from (say) Iomedae, would the other Starstone gods (and maybe Irori) sit on the sidelines when they could be next?
Or what if they were able to free Cheliax. Would the other Nations stand by lest they be deemed 'evil' next?
Just like Warehouse 13 requires neutrality to function, so does the Society need to venere of neutrality to stay "Those meddling kids and their Decembervate" and not "World moving figures."
I thank you for your POV.
I just thought that the way PFS has been described; there would be ramifications for holding onto items that some other society’s (rightfully or wrongfully) though was theirs.
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Much like other posters have said. In home games, the Pathfinder Society is like the Royal Society or National Geographic. In my games membership is gained via adventure! The society is not perfect since both Indiana Jones AND Belloq are both equally likely to be candidates. But an organisation dedicated to the preservation of knowledge, culture and priceless artifacts is pretty great.
Pretty glad to hear from the Devs that this is closer to how the society will be represented moving forward.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I thank you for your POV.I just thought that the way PFS has been described; there would be ramifications for holding onto items that some other society’s (rightfully or wrongfully) though was theirs.
Yeah I can be vocal.
Actually, now that I think about it, the Shadow Lodge insurgency did help the Grand Lodge in one aspect. "What? The sword of Clan MacGuffin was stolen? Well we'd never cause a diplomatic incident. It must have been that Damned Shadow Lodge. We'll keep an eye out for them."
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A lot of people seem to think that an order of Paladins automatically is trusted by the nonevil forces of the land. Many however even among the good aligned fear a time when Paladins gather as they may see it as the gathering of an Unfettered Storm which will strike at anything to achieve it's objective.
Given the frequency of paladins falling and then, seemingly inevitably, becoming anti-paladins until such time as they're put down like rabid dogs or "redeemed" and turned back into regular paladins, but with an atonement complex.... Well, given all that, it's not unreasonable for the general populace to just treat them all as bipolar religious fanatics with swords. Yes, they're useful when there's a clear moral imperative like killing the demon that's running through the town eating people, or the zombies running through the town eating people, but when that's not happening? They tend to get dangerously bored and twitchy. And that's even before they snap and turn to the dark side.
What's worse is that they all apparently hide behind the "no true Scotsman" fallacy whenever one of their fellows goes off the reservation: "No true paladin would ever do such a thing!"
A lot of people seem to think that an order of Paladins automatically is trusted by the nonevil forces of the land. Many however even among the good aligned fear a time when Paladins gather as they may see it as the gathering of an Unfettered Storm which will strike at anything to achieve it's objective.Given the frequency of paladins falling and then, seemingly inevitably, becoming anti-paladins until such time as they're put down like rabid dogs or "redeemed" and turned back into regular paladins, but with an atonement complex.... Well, given all that, it's not unreasonable for the general populace to just treat them all as bipolar religious fanatics with swords. Yes, they're useful when there's a clear moral imperative like killing the demon that's running through the town eating people, or the zombies running through the town eating people, but when that's not happening? They tend to get dangerously bored and twitchy. And that's even before they snap and turn to the dark side.
What's worse is that they all apparently hide behind the "no true Scotsman" fallacy whenever one of their fellows goes off the reservation: "No true paladin would ever do such a thing!"
You just made my day.
I love it.Thank you
Yeah; it's certainly my hope that it'll be canonical for the setting.
I mean... our entire GAME is named after this group. It's in Paizo's best interest that the Pathfinders not be an "unlikable organization." ;-P
Yes, it was my positive feelings toward the game that gave me a mildly positive view of the society in the first place. Keeping holy artifacts from paladins removes my mildly positive view of the society, but not of the game.
It would nice though if you could steer the society back from its current Kivas Fagio (played by Saul Rubinek) selfish, greedy status to more Warehouse 13's Artie Nielsen (also played by Saul Rubinek) sensibility. :-D
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3) Other factions want to keep it out of the Paladins' hands as much as the Paladins want it back. Sure Cheliax would love to lock it away or destroy it (as would Nidal, the demons of the Worldwound, etc etc.) But why waste their own efforts when it (prior to its loss) was already secure? Heck. We don't know how many times it was moved because a cultist of Shax was the guy the Paladin bought raiding equipment from, and the rope he sold broke at a critical moment?.
Mostly right, but from my understanding Cheliax would be just as interested in keeping it safe and enshrining it as the church of Iomedae would. Iomedae IS one of Cheliax's greatest heroes, after all. Her church is second to Asmodeus' in terms of popularity within the nation, and even evil Chelaxians view her as an example to strive for. Maybe some people would want to lock it away in a reliquary for safe-keeping, yes, but DESTROY it? I get the feeling if Cheliax got wind someone was attempting to destroy the Thorncrown, they'd temporarily set aside their differences with Andoran and the two nations would send their armies to stop it and save the artifact. Though they'd probably break off the alliance and start fighting the Andorans over the Thorncrown the minute it was safe, the point is that Iomedae is important to Chelaxians. Heck, she's one of the main reasons the nation hasn't entirely slid into depravity, as there's still enough good or at least non-evil Chelaxians that view her as a role model, if not an object of devotion.
Just a minor nitpick, your original point that there are factions who'd love to destroy the Thorncrown still stands.