Hero Points and Mythic Power

[Pendin Fust]

One of my players brought up this interesting question:

Can they spend a Hero Point to add +8 or +4 (before or after a roll) to add to their Sudden Attack ability roll(spend a Mythic Power to roll twice adding Mythic Tier as insight bonus and take better as a swift action)? Would Hero Point and Mythic Power stack for adding a 1d6 to their roll from the Mythic Power and +8 if they declared the Hero Point before the roll?

That's potentially +14 to a strike at Level 1/Tier 1 (if they had both Hero Point and Mythic Power).

So...do Mythic Power expenditure and Hero Points stack or work together?

(Thanks Hama for bringing up this question!)

[Hama]

I think so. By RAW, i think it would work. But that is my 2c, plus, honestly it was my character who tried to do this, o i may be biased a little. :D

[Javaed]

It should be doable. The Hero Point expenditure is a luck bonus, while the Mythic Power expenditure is a modification to the roll, so they're different types of bonuses.

I think that if you plan on using Mythic Power, you should really think about how to handle other optional rules. Maybe players don't actually start with hero points. Maybe earning hero points becomes a lot tougher, like adding a requirement that an action has to be more impressive than a Lesser Trial to qualify for earning a Hero Point.

[Pendin Fust]

Hama,

What were the Hero Points from? Isn't there some trait that grants starting Hero Points?

[KainPen]

Advanced Players Guide Pendin in the back under optional rules.

[Pendin Fust]

Thanks KainPen, but I meant where did he earn them from...In the playtest he started off with them.

[long john silver]

If you play with those rules you start with 1 point. After that you earn them. You also gain 1 point when levelling. I guess a DM could say you also get 1 point when gaining a mythic tier. Max is still 3. Hero points

[Pendin Fust]

Ah. Thanks long john silver! (He's level 2 so that makes sense then.)

[Hama]

And there is a feat that allows you to have max 5 points.

[TheLoneCleric]

Personally I'd avoid mixing the two systems.

[Pendin Fust]

I'm inclined to agree TheLoneCleric, but I'll continue to allow them in the current playtest unless it becomes a serious problem. It's something for a GM to be aware of (I wasn't and that's my fault!) but I don't think it's necessarily game breaking. At least, not anymore so than the Mythic Rules are already meant to be game breaking :)

[dogstarrb]

I agree with TheLoneCleric as well, from a thematic as well as crunch standpoint. Mechanically, they over lap a good deal. Thematically, once you're Mythic, you're beyond "mere" Heroism!

[TheLoneCleric]

Mechanically it causes issues. Both are bonus to die results, both are similar but MP's are way more flexible. HP's are yet another resource to track, etc.

[Hama]

Yep, but differently typed bonuses, so they stack. Both optional rulesets too. Once can allow both, one of those or neither. I personally don't see the issue. It will not be that important in higher level/tier games.

TheLoneCleric wrote:

HP's are yet another resource to track

Oh noes, how will people ever track a number? Seriously, that is a very lame excuse.

[TheLoneCleric]

Another very similary type of resource to track. ie. They are doing remarkably similar things. Why not fold it into one mechanic than tracking 2.

For some players, it is an issue.

[Hama]

For whom? I refuse to believe that such lazy people play. It's just two freaking numbers. How hard can it be?

[Galnörag]

Don't forget a first level non-mythic sorcerer or wizard can take the spell true strike and gain +20. Sure it is every other round, but since a HP and Mythic Power is going to be fairly restricted at L1, it isn't system break. You get to hit once really well... OK your a hero you need to hit when it is important.

[TheLoneCleric]

Hama, I don't know what your play experience is...but not all of these people are "lazy". Some players are use to lower complexity on characters in general. There is a reason why 4E has a market.

Generalizing about folks that get confused about two very similar systems on the same character isn't going to win any arguements with me. Pathfinder characters are complex enough (sure not THE most complex, thank you Rolemaster) but adding Mythic pushes them into a range that some players find difficult to track. Worse yet if you have yet another point system of bonus dice and actions.

But honestly, why bother with Hero points with Mythic points does more or less the same thing with greater flexibility? But it's your game. Play it how you want too.

[Hama]

Because it's fun using all the options?

[thejeff]

Honestly, I prefer not to have to deal with things like Hero points and Mythic points. It's not just the complexity. It's trying to map them to something in the character's view of the world. Does he know he has such points? Is that something he could talk about in character?

Same with ki points & arcana points and whatever else. Even spontaneous casting, to a lesser degree. Prepared casting makes sense. The caster knows which spells he has prepared.

Especially as you get more different types of them.

[Landon Winkler]

Hama wrote:

For whom? I refuse to believe that such lazy people play. It's just two freaking numbers. How hard can it be?

I'm glad to know that me, my wife, and all my friends that play Pathfinder don't exist. And the part where you insulted us all, that's good too.

Seriously, take a step back and ask yourself if everyone who disagrees with you is being lazy... or has their own reasons, every bit as valid as yours.

My players are perfectly capable of tracking two pools of numbers or a dozen. But why would they? They get together to explore the world and stories that Paizo and I have built for them. Unless the number is helping them explore that world, it's just in the way.

And having a second pool of points that does the same thing as one you're already using is the very definition of "not helping."

If you like complexity for complexity's sake, that's absolutely fine. But expect to get some pushback from people like my group, who see complexity as an unfortunate price that has to be paid to get the gameplay we want.

Cheers!
Landon

[Pendin Fust]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Some people like tracking the ounces of their gear and some people like to handwave. Neither is wrong or better.

So far the Hero Points aren't game breaking in my playtest, I just wasn't familiar with them and I needed some clarification/advice.

[Landon Winkler]

Pendin Fust wrote:

So far the Hero Points aren't game breaking in my playtest, I just wasn't familiar with them and I needed some clarification/advice.

Yeah, they shouldn't cause any problems rules-wise. If your group likes them, keep them :)

Cheers!
Landon

[Hama]

thejeff wrote:

Honestly, I prefer not to have to deal with things like Hero points and Mythic points. It's not just the complexity. It's trying to map them to something in the character's view of the world. Does he know he has such points? Is that something he could talk about in character?

Same with ki points & arcana points and whatever else. Even spontaneous casting, to a lesser degree. Prepared casting makes sense. The caster knows which spells he has prepared.

Especially as you get more different types of them.

The point is that your character doesn't know of the game mechanics. He doesn't understand that he has a strength score or 3 ranks in climb. He just knows that he is strong and a good climber. The same goes for all other stuff. It's instinctive. You really want to succeed at something? Well, you spend a hero point, but you don't know that you did.

I can separate mechanics from character knowledge.

Landon WInkler wrote:

I'm glad to know that me, my wife, and all my friends that play Pathfinder don't exist. And the part where you insulted us all, that's good too.

Seriously, take a step back and ask yourself if everyone who disagrees with you is being lazy... or has their own reasons, every bit as valid as yours.

My players are perfectly capable of tracking two pools of numbers or a dozen. But why would they? They get together to explore the world and stories that Paizo and I have built for them. Unless the number is helping them explore that world, it's just in the way.

And having a second pool of points that does the same thing as one you're already using is the very definition of "not helping."

If you like complexity for complexity's sake, that's absolutely fine. But expect to get some pushback from people like my group, who see complexity as an unfortunate price that has to be paid to get the gameplay we want.

Cheers!
Landon

Sorry if i offended, maybe i wasn't specific enough. I find that refusing to use something just because it's hard and tiresome to be laziness. If you don't want to use it because you find it unnecessary, that is a completely different matter. I for instance find gunslingers unnecessary, so i don't use them.

[thejeff]

Hama wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Honestly, I prefer not to have to deal with things like Hero points and Mythic points. It's not just the complexity. It's trying to map them to something in the character's view of the world. Does he know he has such points? Is that something he could talk about in character?

Same with ki points & arcana points and whatever else. Even spontaneous casting, to a lesser degree. Prepared casting makes sense. The caster knows which spells he has prepared.

Especially as you get more different types of them.

The point is that your character doesn't know of the game mechanics. He doesn't understand that he has a strength score or 3 ranks in climb. He just knows that he is strong and a good climber. The same goes for all other stuff. It's instinctive. You really want to succeed at something? Well, you spend a hero point, but you don't know that you did.

I can separate mechanics from character knowledge.

So can I. Or at least I can try to.

It's easy with things like Strength or skills. Those map pretty easily onto things your character knows. "I'm pretty strong." "I've done some climbing." Etc.

It's harder for things with limited uses. If the character doesn't know that he has 6 Mythic Points and how many points various things cost, how does he manage his usage. Is it entirely metagame? He doesn't know how he's limited, he just does the Mythic stuff when "he really wants to"?

[Hama]

Just find a way to rationalize it, or don't bother to rationalize it at all. Sometimes it's just better to accept things as they are without scrutiny.

[Pendin Fust]

Just putting this back on the radar for Jason. I'm curious to see if they thought of this while designing and what their thoughts are.

[Hama]

Yep, i'm curious too...

[dogstarrb]

After one session with our level 13, mythic 1 group, which I took hero points away from once they ascended, I've got a little more to say on the matter.

While the two points DO overlap SOME, it's not all, and not immediate. The biggest things my players lamented was the loss of the ability to take an extra standard action, spending 2 hero points to shake off massive damage at -1 and stable, and the flexibility of "other things with DM approval"-- their favorite being spending a point to force a monster to reroll a threatened critical.

The extra turn would be even better than an extra standard action, sure, but you can't do it whenever you want, it's a set alternative initiative, and you don't get that immediately, either. Also, as I understand it, Amazing Initiative is going to be significantly altered.
Mythic players are Hard To Kill, but not Immortal immediately, and a critical power attack vital strike from a worthy foe is still likely to send them to Pharasma, especially if they weren't at the greatest of health to start with.
Hero points have added a LOT of creativity to my player's gaming, and I hate that it seemed to vanish as soon as the hero points did. In many cases, the options didn't vanish, just the willingness to take those risks without that +8.

Another solution I may try is to have their Hero Points "transform" into Mythic Power, allow the heroic feats to apply to their Mythic Power, and let one resource pool cover the power of both. On the other hand, this will take away the viability of the +1d6 use of the Mythic Power, since +8 or even +4 is often better than the gamble on the dice.

[Hama]

But, why not have both? Everyone knows that mythic points will mostly be used for things other then adding a 1dx to a die roll. Nothing forbids you from using mythic power and hero points at the same time.