Weapon Snatcher, Regarding how the Check Works

[Maliphian]

I had a dispute come up in a Pathfinder Society game concerning how Weapon Snatcher operated. The GM (who is of some higher prestige than myself in my local area) says that since Weapon Snatcher specifically states:

Quote:

A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

It means that all the rules that concern a slight of hand check, also carry over into the check made for the slight of hand. These include but are not limited to:

1. The Target not being aware of the person using the skill (meaning I can't use Weapon Snatcher on a target who knows I'm there, as per the wording of Slight of Hand

Quote:

You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.

2. That the action is a standard action as said (as opposed to an Attack-Equivalent action that a Disarm attempt would be)

Quote:

Any Sleight of Hand check is normally a standard action.

3. It is possible to use Weapon Snatcher to try and disarm a weapon as a move action (as per Slight of Hand)

Quote:

[Y]ou may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a move action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.

4. I do not need the Improved Disarm feat to avoid the attack of opportunity since the skill check doesn't draw one normally.

5. Basically the only thing the Advanced Talent changes is that I can steal a weapon someone is holding from their hand using slight of hand.

When I originally designed this character, I had never heard (nor read on the forums) this interpretation of Weapon Snatcher so when I wanted to employ it in the game, I was completely taken aback by how much more underwhelming his interpretation made it. In addition, several other GMs (also more prestigious than I in our PFS circle) agree with his interpretation.

I understand the Advanced Talent to basically allow the user to replace the CMB check with the rogue's slight of hand bonus, and I've read similar interpretations on the forums. My question is this, what is the proper way this Advanced Talent functions in PFS?

[asthyril]

my question is, if you are attacking 4 times in a round and on your 4th attack you decide to try to disarm them, are they disallowing you from using this ability at all? it specifically lets you make a sleight of hand check when you disarm someone, how can they interpret that as a standard action? the talent does not say anything about it having to be a standard action, simply replacing your CMD check with a skill check. i mean the description of sleight of hand says it is 'usually' a standard action, but the talent should be treated otherwise imo.

it is, after all, a level 10+ talent, i would think it should do something other than what they describe.

when taking a weapon from someone who does not know youre there, you can just use sleight of hand normally to take the weapon, why would you need this talent?(arguably it needs to be 'reasonably small' but thats really undefined) if you dont care if they notice you can pretty easily succeed at it, that interpretation makes this talent completely worthless.

it's a shortly worded talent, so i can see it being interpreted many ways, but i always took it to mean that when you make a CMB check to disarm, you use your sleight if hand modifier instead of your CMB. thats what the talent says.

srd wrote:

A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

in place of a CMB check means, to me, that you follow all the rules of CMB check replacing the sleight of hand check only, if anything else about the CMB check were to be altered, the talent would say so.

[Eridan]

You perform a disarm combat maneuver with all common adjustments and replace the CMB bonus with your sleight of hand skill bonus. Under normal conditions your SOH bonus is higher and easier to increase compared to the CMB. That is the benefit of this talent.

You need Imp.Disarm to prevent an AoO.
You get the +2 from Imp. Disarm.
..

[Maliphian]

asthyril wrote:

my question is, if you are attacking 4 times in a round and on your 4th attack you decide to try to disarm them, are they disallowing you from using this ability at all? it specifically lets you make a sleight of hand check when you disarm someone, how can they interpret that as a standard action? the talent does not say anything about it having to be a standard action, simply replacing your CMD check with a skill check. i mean the description of sleight of hand says it is 'usually' a standard action, but the talent should be treated otherwise imo.

it is, after all, a level 10+ talent, i would think it should do something other than what they describe.

when taking a weapon from someone who does not know youre there, you can just use sleight of hand normally to take the weapon, why would you need this talent?(arguably it needs to be 'reasonably small' but thats really undefined) if you dont care if they notice you can pretty easily succeed at it, that interpretation makes this talent completely worthless.

it's a shortly worded talent, so i can see it being interpreted many ways, but i always took it to mean that when you make a CMB check to disarm, you use your sleight if hand modifier instead of your CMB. thats what the talent says.

srd wrote:

A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check in place of a combat maneuver check when attempting to disarm an opponent.

in place of a CMB check means, to me, that you follow all the rules of CMB check replacing the sleight of hand check only, if anything else about the CMB check were to be altered, the talent would say so.

It gets compared to how the bard ability "Versitile Performance" works, which specifically states that you replace the modifier of one with another

Quote:

He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill.

The biggest problem is that its a long invested character (ten levels) and I find out about their interpretation of Weapon Snatcher only after I have used it in a scenario (which forbids me from replacing it). I even referenced a James Jacob's post where he clarifies some things about how the ability works.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=294?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#14674
and just from his brief overview of it, it seems to work the way I thought. I just need to know how I can explain it to this guy so I can actually use the talent the way it was intended.