| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Hi all,
sorry to bring this up "again", but my search-Fu did not give helpful results....
Were there any conclusions on the question, if Crane Wing also works against melee touch attacks???
As far a I read the combat section, a melee touch attack is he same as a normal melee attack, except that it ignores stuff like armor bonus and that the attack is considered armed for the purpose of AoO.
So, how does Crane Wing work in the following situations (assuming that all conditions for its application like fighting defensivly, using an AoMF with ghost touch against the spectre etc. are given):
1) Crane Wing vs Spectre´s drain touch
2) Crane Wing vs Spell-Caster with e.g. Shocking Grasp charged
3) Crane Wing vs Nualia
Some reference to official ruling - if any - would be helpful....
Thanks and best greetings...
a melee touch attack is still a melee attack. the touch counts as a weapon for all intents and purposes.
Crane wing specifically calls out weapon melee attack. The fact that it uses a touch attack does not mean it is not a melee weapon attack. A melee weapon attack is an attack using a melee weapon.
All 3 of those should work but the shocking grasp should not be discharged IMHO.
I doubt that you will find an official answer. Crane Wing states that you can deflect melee weapon attacks.
Interesting question and I think the answer is 'no they can not be deflected by Crane Wing'.
Lets extrapolate and apply the Bard's Inspire Courage which gives a bonous to weapon damage rolls. Does inspire courage give Shocking Grasp bonous damage? I think not and a quick search shows at least one thread that agrees with me. So no melee touches are not weapons (unlike rays, which are weapons but are ranged).
Compare this with the Duelist Parry ability which seems to be able to parry any sort of attack including a ghost attack (even with a nonmagical blade which is amusing), an arrow, or even a ray. Then again a duelist has to give up an attack to use his parry ability so there does seem to be a balance to it.
anything with an attack roll is considered a weapon. even if the attack ignores armor.
I disagree. If shocking grasp counts as a weapon then you also apply Inspire Courage. Something is either a weapon or it isn't. I think it is different then in 3.5 rules.
Here is the wording I can find for 3.5
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Player's Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells, as noted in Chapter 3 of this book. All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (as as the bard's inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don't increase damage from a weapon-like spell. Likewise, a weapon-like spell that deals normal damage can't be used to deal nonlethal damage or vice versa (except when modified by the Nonlethal Substitution feat or in accoredance with the specific regulations of a nonlethal spell duel as described on page 176).
This is wrong for Pathfinder. From the Core Rulebook FAQ:
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
Looking into this a little more - here is a thread on weapon focus, specifically weapon focus (melee touch) and if that would be something that is legal:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5mqz?Weapon-Focus
A quote from the thread which I find amusing
Inspire courage works just fine on a touch spell's attack roll. Whether the damage bonus applies depends on the constantly-morphing definition of "weapon".
I don't think weapon is so well defined as you seem to.
I think this might call for an FAQ mark.
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Under touch spells in combat...
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
and under AC...
Touch AttacksSome attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
By what I can find on touch spells and touch attacks I tend to lean towards you can deflect it so long as you can actually fully block it somehow. For instance I don't think I would normally let a player deflect a ghost's touch but if he had a ghost touch amulet of might fists I think I would let him deflect it.
Still is kinda hazy either way, and really leaves it open to interpretation of the rules IMO.
I'm wondering if a new thread should be made. Crane Wing vs Melee Touch attacks is just a smaller piece of 'is a melee touch attack a weapon'. If spells such as Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp spells are then they are also affected by things like Arcane Strike, Inspire Courage, Prayer, etc. If you agree will certainly concede that it could be deflected by Crane Wing.
First of all thanks for the contributions so far...
I'm wondering if a new thread should be made. Crane Wing vs Melee Touch attacks is just a smaller piece of 'is a melee touch attack a weapon'. If spells such as Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp spells are affected by things like Arcane Strike, Inspire Courage, Prayer, etc then I will certainly concede that it could be deflected by Crane Wing.
I briefly thought about putting the question on a broader basis. However all aspects you mention as mixing up two things:
The melee touch itself is the attack part. I think, all spells and effects providing a "+X" to hit work fine.
However the melee touch normally only carries an effect (damage spell, drain effect etc.). IMHO all effects increasing weapon damage like Arcane Strike do not work, since you do not deal any weapon damage....
I considered Crane Wing special, since it lets you deflect the attack - so the question is if the effect delivered by the touch attack triggers or not...
I don't think they are seperate issues -
Crane Wing
... you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you ...
To me anyway if melee touch attacks are weapons is the entirity of the question. If they are weapons then you it can be deflected (and they are also affected by other feats and abilities that affect weapons).
A little offtopic - Arcane Strike adds damage to your weapons, it doesn't deal weapon damage.
Some threads (indeed, one I actually started) -
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5gah?Arcane-Strike-to-Rays
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz6dw9?Does-Arcane-Strike-work-with-Ray-spells
Another amusing quote this time from Tiny Coffee Golem.
Choose wisely:
1) Rays are weapons. They can be imbued with arcane strike and various other ranged weapon feats work. However, when you leviatate you take the appropriate minuses for using ranged weapons.
2) rays are not weapons. Arcane strike does not work. Certain feats work only because they say so for spells. However, as they are not ranged weapons you will not take minuses when levitating as they have no mass.
He uses leviate as an example. I'll use Precise Shot. If rays aren't weapons then they aren't affected by this feat.
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I would consider the attack as a weapon but the damage as not a weapon.
As for touch attacks, if you connect you and the creature trying to touch you, I would say that the attack hits and discharges it's effect (however if the unarmed strike it's attached to might still be deflected thus possibly resulting in only the spell or ability's effect.)
That said the point of armor adding to AC is to simplify combat, so I would also consider how simple/sensible you want to go with it.
Edit; However aimed spells can still benefit from precision damage due to being able to hit precisly, thus certain feats work. Arcane strike wouldn't because it imbues a weapon with magic, but a spell is already magic thus it doesn't stack.
As for levitate, a spell ray shouldn't cause instability due to not swinging something around or reaching behind and then upfront real fast or involving recoil. So only casting a spell penalties apply.
These debates over RAW specifics seem to forget sometimes that the rules are guidelines based on general circumstances. The GM should extropolate what the "rule" is simulating and add a bit of common sense when dealing with something odd.