Eating and Drinking in Pathfinder Online

[Mcduff]

Quick question I wanted to ask. Does anyone know whether food and drink will be required or provide any benefits? I'm assuming at the very least they'll provide a temporary buff of some kind.

Given the myriad of potential professions in a sandbox, chef seems an obvious choice. I've recently been thinking though that it might be cool if food were required (on some level). Now obviously you wouldn't die of starvation, and I think it would be a mistake to force people to constantly having to stop and snack. But you could implement something where characters suffer minor debuffs the longer they go without eating. Nothing crippling, just enough to incentivize stopping at inns and markets occasionally. It would also be something to consider when planning a long trek in the wilderness.

Has any other mmo had a system like this in the past? If so, was it cool or awful? In the few that I've played, cooking often feels like alchemy with minor tweaks. I hate wandering into inns and finding nothing but npc's. Also, since one of the possibilities for building player built structures is an inn, it'd be nice if there were actual services it could provide. Food, Drink, Notice Boards for work, a place to sleep or get healed up...

Or it could be really annoying. Maybe it's crossing the line between immersive and tedious. Thoughts?

[Waffleyone]

I don't know the plan.

A way that I've seen food and drink used before that may not be perfect but I liked well: Two kinds of consumable food - food and beverages - the food provides mid term buffs, and the beverages act as out of combat heals (almost like bandage consumables - heal a bunch over 10-15 seconds out of combat). Natural out-of-combat regen is sufficient for low-pressure situations, but between hard battles they're a must have without good healers around - and even then maybe for mana.

I really like the idea of Inns as social hubs. Semi-safe havens where players can socialize and have meals, look for work/workers, gather parties, grab some consumables, heal up, get some kind of rested/safe haven buff (I like the idea of an inn-related buff that you acquire from time being spent logged into an inn and active, I just saw nowhere to mention the idea).

[Ryan Dancey]

@Mcduff - too soon to tell.

[AvenaOats]

To add some previous ideas from another game (albeit mmos get complex enough rapidly!), an awesome old game called Dungeon Master (there is a redux modern version called Legend Of Grimlock), in which YOU NEED FOOD AND WATER:

1. If you run low over short periods of time your chars health/constitution slowly decays/depletes until you find something to snack on.
2. When you defeat some monsters they give off chunks of food to eat. However when you're low on food (limit to slots to carry/bags), you'll gobble any monster, and some are poisonous, so you get your constitution back but end up affecting something else like strength so you are weakened when fighting the next critter!
3. Water in potion bottles is needed to create different potions eg health potion etc, so you collect and save those empty potion bottles whenever you see them; think you need a bit of water at times too; it's been an age since I last played that game.

Those were all very good. I think DayZ you need food/liquid in that game too. So it can add something to that length of gamaplay. In MMO, it might end up being more hassle than immersive... not sure. But possibly as a subform of crafting it might fit in nicely. :)

[xDialtone]

As a personal preference to be immersive as possible, I would like the idea of a hunger/hydration/fatigue system to be thought about being used, so that taverns, inns, player homes, and buildings in general can seem a bit more lively during the evening hours, or players can set up small fire lit camps out in the forest at night. Players also could 'carry' food as well (hand made or bought, which could give additional buffs) so you would not have to always find a town for food.

The only difficulty with this is that days are 4 times as fast (I think) compared to our 24 hours (so 6 hour days in game), you could make it so that you would require food every 1 and a half to 2 hours. It would be fine with food, but a fatigue system would be much harder I think, and it would be every few days before we would need to rest.

Again, personal preference, and I would love to see something like this or even discussed.

[Mcduff]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

@Mcduff - too soon to tell.

Thanks Ryan, didn't wanna bother starting a discussion if it has already been decided against.

@Dialtone, I agree the timing is a bit tricky. We certainly don't want to make it a huge inconvenience for people. The other issue is that players may be offline for a day or two and I don't think they should have to eat a seven course meal every time they log back in. Maybe there could be a feature where if you log out at an inn, your character retains his "well fed" status. The idea being that he has access to food, drink, and rest as long as he's there.

It would also be cool if the cooking system allowed for brewing beer and wine as well. Nothing like a fresh pint of dwarven stout to take the edge off after a long day of monster killing.

[xDialtone]

Mcduff wrote:

It would also be cool if the cooking system allowed for brewing beer and wine as well. Nothing like a fresh pint of dwarven stout to take the edge off after a long day of monster killing.

It would interesting if the cooking system was extensive enough to make it so there were dozens if not a hundred or so different types of ale or other beverages that could be made and sold. 'Brewers' could have their own type of beer they can sell made with ingredients that are secret, it might come from a rare spice that is hard to get or takes a long time to cultivate.

I like brainstorming ~

[Andius]

Mcduff wrote:

Has any other mmo had a system like this in the past? If so, was it cool or awful?

Wurm, Xsyon, and Mortal Online have food is a near requirement. In Wurm you have a hunger and thirst bar near your health that depletes over time. As they deplete your stamina, or basically the resource you need to do... everything, starts recharging slower. This might be annoying sometimes if not for the fact that players can carry food and a waterskin on their person. With that option it is really kind of cool. It makes finding a food supply kind of a big deal. Whenever you are working in your settlement you always want a good deal of food in your food storage bin, and throughout the day it's a good idea to cook up some meals you can snack on while you work. But more interestingly, when you go out adventuring you pack a meal and a waterskin with you, filling up the waterskin every time you come to a source of water, and if you don't come home before your meal is gone you may need to forage, fish, or go hunting for some more food. Then either have at it raw, or start up a campfire if you brought a bowl, or pan, or something else you can cook in. I think Pathfinder Online would really be missing out if we didn't have to do something similar on long journeys. Xsyon's hunger system works in much the same way. Wurm Also has a sleep system where if you sleep in a bed inside a structure that another player isn't using, you get a short duration of increased XP gains the next time you log in.

In Mortal Online it's different. If I remember properly. There is something called "grey-bar". Basically over time the ends of your mana, stamina, and health bars start to turn grey. The gray portion is basically saying your character is tired and hungry, and your max health/stamina/mana has been lowered by that much. When you eat or sleep, that grey-bar goes away. I am also FAIRLY certain there is a hunger bar, and that if it gets low you accumulate grey-bar faster, so you can't just sleep away all your hunger needs... or you can but you'll be sleeping all the time. And it won't let you keep eating once that bar is full, so you can't just eat away all your sleep needs. You have to mix the two up as needed.

I really don't care what system Pathfinder Online uses, but I think a hunger and sleep system should be used because:

1. A hunger system creates a constant need for food. Food is a resource. That is going to create an economy for food. Especially if things like dried meat and waybread are created that are either non-perishable or have a very slow rate of decay.
2. It gives an authentic Pathfinder feel to the game. I want to have to decide between packing large amounts of rations for a long journey, or trusting in my survival skills. Just like I do in the pen and paper game.
3. If properly designed, a hunger/sleep system will draw people into inns when they are traveling away from their homes. And I think inns are a feature that A LOT of people want to see emphasized in this game.

[Mcduff]

@Dialtone, Agreed. Even if they had only a handful of different effects between them, it'd be cool from a roleplay standpoint. "Stop by the Winking Gnome Inn, the only place to find Bilge-water Bourbon this side of the Mindspin Mountains!"

@Andius, it would also make foraging and hunting viable proffesions. Not sure how they'd implement the skill... There could be non aggressive animal mobs that are difficult to hit unless you have the skill. Or they could just make it so you're more likely to loot larger quantities of meat if you've taken the appropriate skill. A lumbering paladin should still be able to survive in most of the wild (though maybe not deserts or wastelands) but not nearly as easily as a ranger.

[xDialtone]

Quote:

@Dialtone, Agreed. Even if they had only a handful of different effects between them, it'd be cool from a roleplay standpoint. "Stop by the Winking Gnome Inn, the only place to find Bilge-water Bourbon this side of the Mindspin Mountains!"

I'm sure with all the skill concepts being thought about in the release, you can easily come up with many many different combinations of buffs all ranging from Combat to Crafting or a mix between or other roleplay vanity concepts.

Mcduff wrote:

@Andius, it would also make foraging and hunting viable proffesions. Not sure how they'd implement the skill... There could be non aggressive animal mobs that are difficult to hit unless you have the skill. Or they could just make it so you're more likely to loot larger quantities of meat if you've taken the appropriate skill. A lumbering paladin should still be able to survive in most of the wild (though maybe not deserts or wastelands) but not nearly as easily as a ranger.

Something like a 'Hunting' skill or even a 'Butcher' like concept which allows you to cut proper pieces of food from animals which can range from 'Hazardly Cut of Meat' to 'Perfect Cut of Meat' (for stews) or 'hazardly Cut Rib-Eye' to 'Perfectly Cut Rib-eye', which can determine what can be cooked with it as well as how big the buff you can get.

I know FFXIV has a huge variety of food you can cook, they even have contests over originality sometimes with rewards. Think they are even having one on soups right now on their FB page.

[BraxtheSage]

I would also like to see a need for food and drink. It would encourage interaction, create exciting role playing opportunities (esp in taverns), and create a possible depth for crafting.

[Gayel Nord]

The more your food is craft, the less you have hunger.

[AvenaOats]

Andius wrote:

But more interestingly, when you go out adventuring you pack a meal and a waterskin with you, filling up the waterskin every time you come to a source of water, and if you don't come home before your meal is gone you may need to forage, fish, or go hunting for some more food. Then either have at it raw, or start up a campfire if you brought a bowl, or pan, or something else you can cook in.

To add to your "should be used" list:

4. Apart from the deeper you go into wilderness, the more potent mobs and danger becomes, but also the deeper/longer you travel, you as an explorer are somewhat tethered by your hunger supply. As a game mechanic I think that's interesting: A force facing and a force pulling back as it were.

Or ability to be side-tracked to resupply using whatever "bushcraft" skills (eg hunting, trapping) that might be available. Hence having a ranger or some such in a party who can supply top-ups to others catching game or otherwise would be a great dynamic to exploration of the world, requiring survival skills.

Also there's something to be said for the conviviality of sitting around eating/drinking. In RL hikes, it's funny just how much conversation can turn into talking obsessively about food.

[Nestor]

I think trail rations and water should be a requirement.

WOW did not go far enough with the cooking profession, but temporary buffs would be good in my opinion.

[DeciusBrutus]

There isn't much middle ground between the cases where food isn't implemented, where it is optional but provides bonuses, and where it is required and nontrivial to achieve.

If it is required but trivial to carry enough food, then the net effect is similar to if it wasn't implemented at all.

[Mcduff]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

If it is required but trivial to carry enough food, then the net effect is similar to if it wasn't implemented at all.

Agreed. And it would suck for people to invest skills in foraging, hunting, and cooking if other people could just ignore food altogether.

I think it also makes the exploration aspect cooler when you have a limited supply of rations (keyword being limited). There should be a solid level of risk other than just wandering into an area of mobs who are too high (like most themeparks).

[DeciusBrutus]

I recall in some of the Might & Magic games, it was explicit that you could carry as much food as you wanted- but all of that food would spoil in constant time, so that you only had x days worth (where x varied based on where you purchased the food; some areas has better supplies and prices than others.

I think that something similar could be implemented: rations which expire either when eaten, or after some period of time. There are too many different ways to measure 'time' to come to a quick conclusion.

[Nihimon]

I would love to see a food system that accounted for freshness. I would really like to see this applied to certain spell components, too. If herbs are required for healing, they should lose potency over time, etc.

[DeciusBrutus]

I was thinking just "this entire stack goes bad in 3 days", as a sudden existence failure mode. I'm not sure if that would just force everyone to dabble in cleric enough to summon food and drink and trivially bypass the interesting part of implementing hunger.

I don't think it will go over well to implement hunger but not implement SFaD.

Perhaps make eating part of recovering stamina and magic, and SFaD to recover magic is a break-even proposition, or just significantly slower than packing rations? Or summoned food has a major disadvantage over iron rations, to make up for the convience advantage?

[xDialtone]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

Perhaps make eating part of recovering stamina and magic, and SFaD to recover magic is a break-even proposition, or just significantly slower than packing rations? Or summoned food has a major disadvantage over iron rations, to make up for the convience advantage?

You could think of a system that made summoned food make you feel that you are 'full'. You wouldn't get any of the buffs of normal food, but your stamina or energy would go back to full with the problem that it depleted at the same rate from before.

Not sure if I can explain it properly, but for example:

You start with a max score of 100 Stamina, when you start getting hungry your Max Stamina is lowered slowly then depletes faster as you start to starve. You can decide what penalties you get from not eating, from lowered stats, slower movement, debuffs, etc.

The Levels of Hunger are (lowest to highest):
Starving (decreased or huge stat, movement speed, stamina, regeneration debuff)
Hungry (very slight stat/movement speed debuff, slightly lowered Stamina and regeneration)
Satisfied (no buffs, no regen, just the normal not hungry)
Well Fed (increase stamina regeneration as well as provide buffs depending on the food)
Overfed (if you want to go that far and would have debuffs similar to hungry).

The increase Stamina Regeneration would not last as long as the buff from eating. The regen would only stay until you hit Satisfied, but the buff would last until you hit Hungry.

Stamina (could be) the cost of using Abilities/Skills that are not mana costing (mana abilities need stamina too, but not as much as physical ones). The Lower your Hunger is, the more it costs to use abilities and you couldn't use as many and would have to wait for it to fill back up.

Travel Food (from vendors or long durability food like rations or hard tact or even salted meat/fish) would bring Max Stamina back up slightly and would need more of it to get back to 100, and likewise it would bring your Hunger from Starving to Hungry and to (at max) Satisfied.

Cooked Food (player crafted from cooking at a camp with a short lifespan or at an Inn) would bring your Max Stamina back to 100 (with a buff if the food created has it) and your Hunger would go to Well Fed from the warm cooked meal.

Summoned Food would have an impact like Travel Food, it would bring your Max Stamina back to 100 (after eating a few of them maybe), but it can -only- increase your Hunger back to Hungry, and would not allow you to be 'Well Fed'. Which means that your abilities, skills, endurance cost would be higher than if you were 'Satisfied' but your stamina would still be at max with no debuff of Starving.

This would make summoned food easy to get, but not as good as normal carried provisions or crafted food. Just an idea.

Also, with a system like this, you can work in a 'Fatigue' like system that works well with it, as you would sit and choose to rest and eat (restores fatigue). As well as making a system that made it so that more physical activity increases Fatigue and makes you hungry.

Just my thoughts on an 'immersive' Eat Drink Sleep system, but not make it to the point of overall annoyance.

[Andius]

Nihimon wrote:

I would love to see a food system that accounted for freshness. I would really like to see this applied to certain spell components, too. If herbs are required for healing, they should lose potency over time, etc.

This was kind of the case in Wurm and I would envision something similar here as well. You had a nutrition level in addition to a hunger level. Well prepared food eaten right after it dropped from searing hot to just hot, gave higher nutrition. Food carried in your pack decayed over the time, and as it decayed it lost quality. Eating low quality food, that wasn't hot = lower nutrition.

So if we did a similar nutrition system here, we could make it so eating roast mutton with mint sauce fresh out of the oven in your home or an inn, would give significantly higher nutrition than stew made at a campfire made from dried beans and dried pork, which gave gives significantly higher nutrition than jerky and waybread. But the jerky and waybread would last nearly forever and take no time to prepare, the pork and beans would last nearly forever as their raw ingredients and take some preparation time, and if that is super high quality mutton that lamb was probably slaughtered this morning.

This would incentivize adventurers to come home or too inns because they aren't going to be bringing lambs and fresh mint leaves along with them on all their travels, where inns probably have access to fresher ingredients. So stopping off in an inn to use a real bed, and eat some freshly prepared food will actually have reasons it is more beneficial than sleeping in a tent after a meal of pork and beans, or in makeshift shelter after some waybread and jerky.

[Ryan Dancey]

Food scares me. I worry that it is a "fine for a while, but sucks forever after" game system.

[Gayel Nord]

Yes, but you will use food for NPC right?

[Andius]

From my experience, in the games I have played with it, it never really gets tiresome.

But I think if you figured it was getting overly tiresome all you would have to do is increase the duration that food benefits last, or maybe just add some skills that make it so players who don't want to have to deal with it as much can go longer on less food. I figured you might do that anyway for monks.

I think the main thing you should consider, apart from it giving a more authentic Pathfinder feel to PFO, is it is an economy driver that does increase player interaction for sure.

[Drejk]

Especially if it would force regular play on casual gamers.

[Gayel Nord]

You could try and if it don't work out, Just remove it.

[DeciusBrutus]

But the really interesting part of food supply systems isn't how one person or a small group feeds itself going out into the wilderness. The interesting part is when a small group ambushes and burns the delivery of food to an army in the field.

[AvenaOats]

Food should be like oxygen - you only start to miss it when you have not got it. Simple. But another dimension to ranger/druid types that is non-combat but support to a party I like the food idea. Also as another strategy for settlements with agriculture/grain stores?! Or in the words of Whinthorpe in Trading Placing: "Pork Bellies - I KNEW IT!"

[Mcduff]

I can certainly understand it being something of a can of worms. There's definitely potential for it to become a bother. At the very least, it doesn't need to be available at launch, not in its fully developed stage anyways.

If it's decided that things like hunger, shelf life, and starvation arena't going to be added, my following question would be:

Is it better to have a simplified cooking system (something like WoW or GW2) Or simply avoid it altogether? If it does end up like an optional, simplified form of crafting, should it still be used? Not sure how'd feel personally, any thoughts?

[Andius]

Drejk wrote:

Especially if it would force regular play on casual gamers.

It shouldn't. Every hunger system I have ever seen has only worked while you were logged in.

I also would be entirely opposed to a hunger system where you continue to get hungry while logged out, and while some games do it, I don't think food that is in your inventory should decay while you are offline. Would suck to pack all your food for a journey only to have something come up in real life, and log back in to find all your food has rotted away.

[Mcduff]

I agree Andius. I'm all for making gameplay experiences immersive, but I don't think people should be penalized for playing casually or having to take a break due to real life.

[Waffleyone]

I vehemently agree with Andius and McDuff here.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-t o-get-you-addicted_p2.html wrote:

"Play It Or Lose It:

This is the real dick move. Why reward the hamster for pressing the lever? Why not simply set it up so that when he fails to press it, we punish him?
Behaviorists call this "avoidance." They set the cage up so that it gives the animal an electric shock every 30 seconds unless it hits the lever. It learns very very fast to stay on the lever, all the time, hitting it over and over. Forever.

Why is your mom obsessively harvesting her crops in Farmville? Because they wither and rot if she doesn't. In Ultima Online, your house or castle would start to decay if you didn't return to it regularly. In Animal Crossing, the town grows over with weeds and your virtual house becomes infested with cockroaches if you don't log in often enough. It's the crown jewel of game programming douchebaggery--keep the player clicking and clicking and clicking just to avoid losing the stuff they worked so hard to get."

I'm pretty sure GW is planning on AVOIDING these situations. Nobody should encourage this kind of design decision, ever.

[Urman]

Andius wrote:

1. A hunger system creates a constant need for food. Food is a resource. That is going to create an economy for food. Especially if things like dried meat and waybread are created that are either non-perishable or have a very slow rate of decay.

3. If properly designed, a hunger/sleep system will draw people into inns when they are traveling away from their homes. And I think inns are a feature that A LOT of people want to see emphasized in this game.

I'd think that implementing lots of food objects that need to be managed could put huge demands on the game. (Think "how fresh are the 50 different food objects in Urman's pack right now?" x 50k players).

I think hunger/thirst might be implemented better with players getting minor long-term buffs for being fed. Fed buffs could be gained at an inn, by successfully completing a hunt or forage action/event in the wilderness, or by other means. Different methods could provide different-length buffs.

Some food resources do need to be in the game, but it could be general like meat, grain, etc. Inns should require a steady supply of food resources to stay operational. Food resources should be objects that can be stacked (hence a "meat" resource, rather than 20-30 different meaty objects that can't be stacked together). Hand-wave away decay of food resources. The decay of food used by the players is covered by the buff timers.

[AvenaOats]

I think simple works best, so players just know to manage food quantity and periodically top-up... it's only when they are deep away from civilization that topping-up might prove to be more "involved", as I see it?

As for cooking-crafting direction, that would be quite a big system to make it fruitful ;) - so a different kettle of fish to discuss. But food + talk go together and brewing etc... it gives atmosphere so might be worth pursuing, perhaps as said, some buffs in this discipline?

[Misere]

I like the idea of needing food/drink to prevent weakness or to provide slight buffs or effects, but not to have them decay over time in your inventory. How would you be able to market food that starts to decay as soon as you make it?

[xDialtone]

Misere wrote:

I like the idea of needing food/drink to prevent weakness or to provide slight buffs or effects, but not to have them decay over time in your inventory. How would you be able to market food that starts to decay as soon as you make it?

Portable containers? Also, maybe Player Cooked Food won't be marketable on such a grand scale and be reserved to Inns and restaurants, so if you wanted that 'Dwarven Bubbly Ale' from the 'Hungry Ram', you would have to go there unless someone figured out how to make it themselves or were taught and open a place somewhere else to sell it.

Even in real life you don't see 'fresh' cooked items in the market unless it's meant to be eaten and cooked right there, or brought swiftly home to be eaten so I personally don't see a problem with having specialty foods not being up on the market like that. Refrigeration isn't a huge thing in this era and probably only extends to salting, pickling, and preserving foods. If you did that, it could be then sold a lot more widely, but then it really wouldn't be the same thing as going to a restaurant and buying a fresh meal.

A player also could potentially buy all the 'Butter Fried Steaks' from someplace and just sell it on the market so anyone in the world at a market could buy it instead of having the player go to the place it self, they would make more money than the place it was cooked in and potentially make future problems. I know I don't want someone taking my hard work, buying it all from me in a second, and throwing it up on the Market for a profit when I could of done so. I wouldn't see a need to ever go to an Inn to eat if that was the case.

I like the idea of certain styles of cooking or food being in certain regions and really only being in that area.

EDIT: By the way, how would food be named? I see a lot of people talking about certain ales and coining names for them in topics. Is there going to be some sort of system that allows players who custom brew or cook something to name and patent it? And if so, what happens if someone (by accident or by purpose) happens to create the same beverage? Will it already be named and then could be sold at a competitive rate or will a window come up saying 'Item is already under patent of <Player/Company>?

I know that all simple items that are made will probably already be simply named as 'Cooked Steak' (requires stove, 50 cooking, raw steak, salt pepper, etc), but what happens when you get into '<UnKnown> Steak' that someone threw together using different ratio of spices (if the system will allow that)? I'm very looking forward to how extensive crafting skills will be and how diverse it will be from person to person.

[Mcduff]

xDialtone wrote:

I know I don't want someone taking my hard work, buying it all from me in a second, and throwing it up on the Market for a profit when I could of done so. I wouldn't see a need to ever go to an Inn to eat if that was the case.

This is huge. Honestly, this is half the reason I want food to begin with. I wouldn't be that put off if GW decides against a food crafting system, provided they're confident they have other ways of encouraging inn patronage.

As far as creating and naming custom food goes, that's a little more complicated than I was originally thinking. It'd be great if they figured out some way to do it further down the line, but for the moment I'd be happy with recipes at various levels of scarcity, and regional favorites.

"A ranger walks into a tavern looking to sell a unique recipe they just found off a mob. No one here has even heard of Seared Elk Flank with Rosemary, which means the tavern owner will be very interested in purchasing it. Nothing like a rare house specialty to set him apart from the crowd. The ranger knows this unfortunately and is asking a high price. The inkeeper could afford it, or he could send the ranger on his way, possibly dispatching a few bouncers to... take care of him once he's far enough from the inn. After all, these are dangerous lands, and any number of tragedies could befall someone before they reach the next town..."

Personally this sounds like a fun situation both mechanically and from a roleplaying standpoint. I'm all for the two overlapping whenever possible.

[GrumpyMel]

I'm in favor of having food/drink be an important aspect of gameplay as I think it adds some fun dynamics to playing....

- Food/Drink for Players. This should act as a moderate debuff for players in terms of combat and other skills. I think make it basicaly something that you COULD ignore but you wouldn't WANT to ingore as you wouldn't be operating at PEAK efficiency. Make it something that you can consume as an action at INNS/SETTLEMENTS but also a consumable that you carry with you. Food consumables should take up WEIGHT meaning that it reduces the amount of gear/loot/raw resources that a character can carry. One of the advantages of having a Ranger/Woodsman type character with you on an expedition into the Wilds is that they can forage for edible food along the way, meaning that you don't need to bring as much with you which free's up space for other things. You could also have special types of food/herbs obtained through either foraging or PvE monsters that gave characters small specific buffs. You could also chain this into the crafting system by making cooks be able to produce better types of food/rations then the raw stuff (lighter, longer lasting effects, stronger/more effects). In essence these become a form of minor non-magical potions. It provides gameplay for resource harvesters and crafters and should not be overly burdensome on players as a whole. If it is pshychologicaly more acceptable you could just impliment being "well fed" as a minor buff rather then a debuff...functionaly it ends up being identical.

- Food for Mounts/Draft Animals. Assuming PFO impliments Mounts/Draft Animals they should consume significant quantities of food, which in turn takes up weight in the animals carry capacity. I would make it so Mounts/Draft Animals could not FAST TRAVEL if they didn't have any food or dropped out of FAST TRAVEL when they ran empty. This has an interesting dynamic as food essentialy becomes fuel here. This becomes part of the economic system for merchant caravans, as food becomes one of thier economic sinks....it also provides another feedback loop for them with producers of food. If you wanted to get more complex you could also make it so different mounts/draft animals consumed different quantities of food, had different carry capacities and fast travel speeds, as well as different types of crafted food having different weights. So part of the economic gain for the merchant is figuring out the optimal configuration of mount and food quality for the merchandise they are carrying.

- Food for Player Settlements. Bulk food should be a player input for Player Settlements and thus determine the amount of labor available for crafting/construction camps within the hex. The less labor, obviously the slower such projects operate. Thus part of the larger Kingdom Building game is creating "farms" (food resource gathering camps) and protecting them. These raw food resources could be resource nodes like the others implimented in the game and subject to the same sort of variable distribution from hex to hex. Thus if a settlement had really valuable mineral resource nodes (for example) but poor food resource nodes, it wouldn't be producing those valuable minerals nor building it's own infrastructure at a very efficient rate unless it secured some import of sufficient foodstocks to feed it's common laborers. This becomes part of the grand strategy game of Kingdom Building/Maintenance and Economics and adds interesting playe elements.

Anyway, that's the way I'd prefer to see things work in regards food. YMMV.

[xDialtone]

Mcduff wrote:

Personally this sounds like a fun situation both mechanically and from a roleplaying standpoint. I'm all for the two overlapping whenever possible.

This would be interesting, I would never carry such a rare item on my person or I would stash it nearby or with a player that I can trust as I go on about the deal incase something like this happens. If there was any hint of malice, I'd leave after negotiations failed and hide out for a bit or maybe set a few traps if they happen to be following me so I could escape.

The roleplay concept of what you can and cannot do is amazing.

[Mcduff]

xDialtone wrote:

Mcduff wrote:

Personally this sounds like a fun situation both mechanically and from a roleplaying standpoint. I'm all for the two overlapping whenever possible.

This would be interesting, I would never carry such a rare item on my person or I would stash it nearby or with a player that I can trust as I go on about the deal incase something like this happens. If there was any hint of malice, I'd leave after negotiations failed and hide out for a bit or maybe set a few traps if they happen to be following me so I could escape.

The roleplay concept of what you can and cannot do is amazing.

More than any other aspect, this is what I personally see as the biggest difference between Themepark and Sanbox.

[DeciusBrutus]

It would be odd to see food items for sale in a marketplace that didn't start to go bad until after you bought them-but what about products that need to be purchased directly from the point of production? The inn owner makes sure the larder is stocked with durable and perishable materials, which are converted into time-limited food items at the time of purchase.

Characters with the appropriate skills could also carry or gather raw materials out wherever they went and prepare them over a camp; an army in the field might construct a field kitchen to provide meals from supplies transported in via mass-transport, as well as a distribution point for field rations.

[GrumpyMel]

DeciusBrutus wrote:

It would be odd to see food items for sale in a marketplace that didn't start to go bad until after you bought them-but what about products that need to be purchased directly from the point of production? The inn owner makes sure the larder is stocked with durable and perishable materials, which are converted into time-limited food items at the time of purchase.

Characters with the appropriate skills could also carry or gather raw materials out wherever they went and prepare them over a camp; an army in the field might construct a field kitchen to provide meals from supplies transported in via mass-transport, as well as a distribution point for field rations.

While this makes sense from a logic standpoint, I'm not sure how much book-keeping it makes sense to impose on the game engine. I'm not really sure how practical it is for the game to be keeping track of the fact that the 4th apple in John's backpack will go bad in 3 days and multiply that out by X number of players. Even though, I'm sure, they could build a system to do that if they wanted, those same resources could probably be used to better effect elsewhere. To that end, I'd likely argue for non-perishable food items (although given they are carried in inventory, they would get destroyed if the player was looted).

If you wanted to make INN'S more attractive to visit, you could simply make it so that things consumed off the menue at an INN provided a much longer "Well Fed" boost then anything you could consume out in the field. So the smart play would be to goto an INN to eat-up before heading out in the field and to carry some rations with you if/when that extended timer for the boost ran out. I do have to caution though that guys who are purely interested in the mechanical advantages of play aren't going to be any more inclined to RP just because you send them to an INN to get those advantages. They'll just go wherever they need to go to get the advantage that they want and avoid RP when they are there. Not that I think it's a bad idea...I love RP...and I like socializing in INNS...so I'm up for it...I just think we shouldn't get any false hopes about those with different gameplay priorties.

[Misere]

GrumpyMel wrote "While this makes sense from a logic standpoint, I'm not sure how much book-keeping it makes sense to impose on the game engine. I'm not really sure how practical it is for the game to be keeping track of the fact that the 4th apple in John's backpack will go bad in 3 days and multiply that out by X number of players. Even though, I'm sure, they could build a system to do that if they wanted, those same resources could probably be used to better effect elsewhere. To that end, I'd likely argue for non-perishable food items (although given they are carried in inventory, they would get destroyed if the player was looted).

If you wanted to make INN'S more attractive to visit, you could simply make it so that things consumed off the menue at an INN provided a much longer "Well Fed" boost then anything you could consume out in the field. So the smart play would be to goto an INN to eat-up before heading out in the field and to carry some rations with you if/when that extended timer for the boost ran out. I do have to caution though that guys who are purely interested in the mechanical advantages of play aren't going to be any more inclined to RP just because you send them to an INN to get those advantages. They'll just go wherever they need to go to get the advantage that they want and avoid RP when they are there."

I agree with this. Besides, its just my own preference but I don't particularly want that much realism in my game.

[Nihimon]

A like the idea of having "fresh" meals prepared at Inns, and having rations that can be taken on the road.

I don't know exactly what you're expecting RP-wise, but simply giving players a reason to congregate at Inns for a few minutes will put them into a situation where they might strike up a conversation with someone new, or overhear another conversation that is relevant to their interests. That's fairly powerful.

[Waffleyone]

I like the idea of the food types that GrumpyMel brought up plus the one that Nihimon has. I think fresh meals which give buffs (more substantial ones than rations - after all it's fresh food) is a FANTASTIC way to encourage players to hang around at Inns. Food that lasts for 15 minutes/only within that building (or something) doesn't have the issues that general food decay does.

I love this system so much I want to provisionally name this fresh/ration/feed/bulk (abbreviated FRBR or Furbur!). Some foods could cross boundaries as well - if fresh food gets cold it turns into rations (some would go bad and just be inedible), rations could sometimes be fed to animals/commoners, some bulk (commoner) food could be eaten by animals, and some feed could be fed to commoners (though they probably wouldn't like it).

[Nihimon]

I think the beauty of GrumpyMel's idea about getting one kind of buff from Inns and another from Rations is that it's really simple and doesn't require the developers to spend a lot of effort tracking timers on individual in-game objects.

The way I'd like to see it is:

• Inns - 100% strength, 4 hours.
  
• Camps - 80% strength, 2 hours.
  
• Rations - 60% strength, 1 hour.

Or something like that...

[Mcduff]

Nihimon wrote:

The way I'd like to see it is:

• Inns - 100% strength, 4 hours.
  
• Camps - 80% strength, 2 hours.
  
• Rations - 60% strength, 1 hour.

Sounds good to me. So out in the wild you're surviving off rations, but if you should come across an inn, it'll still be quite appealing.

[Gayel Nord]

I would like to remind you about the npc. Those who will need for every project. I linking the idea of food buff and mining. the idea of having a buff with fresh food is a excellent idea because it will have a time quest to transport the food to a cook. Price will varies with freshness of the food, the talent of the cook and the freshness of the dish. If you remember NPC will need food to work. The buff should also applied to them. So when you're setting a camp. You will need to have a cook with you! (or be yourself one)And also haverster to gather the ingrendients the most fresh possible.

[Mcduff]

Forums are dead after being down today. meh. On the topic of Inns and how to get people to visit them, I thought I'd shout out a few more ideas.

So according to the blog, Inns are definitely going to be player built structures, and should be candidates for advancement. The given examples are reinforcing it against attacks, and allowing for more pve related content in and around it. That last one is pretty vague, but I'm assuming you'll find more merchants, quest givers, maybe even small npc settlements that crop up around really successful inns.

Here are some other ideas off the top of my head. Feel free to add your own.

Higher quality rest/menu options
Starting out, a small inn might have a few hammocks and a stewpot. It's been confirmed that you'll be able to log out at inns and I wouldn't be surprised if they gave you a small buff for doing so (well rested or something). As the inn is advanced, you'd see small increases to the buff, or find that some places don't require you to log out for as long to get it. Same goes with food and drink buffs. While collecting unique recipes sounds awesome, they could also provide basic food kits. These would include a handful of common recipes made from easily obtained ingredients. Higher quality food and buffs would be available to those who pursued them.

Entertainment
The bare minimum for this would be npc bards, jesters, or dancing girls. The upgrade provides the stage and the quality of entertainment. It'd be great to see players taking part as well, but that's really up to the community. It'd be really cool to see two rival inns competing for a traveling bard who's got an amazing reputation.

Other Services
Pretty sure this'll fall under the expanded npc options, but a larger inn might well contract a blacksmith, an alchemist lab, maybe a stable for selling horses. As with the above, it'd be cool to see players actually taking on these roles "I am Morgal the Magnificent. Traveling wizard and collector of rare texts. Currently I can be found at the Lofty Sparrow where I take all my meals and sell the occasional scroll."

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

"Advancing a Building

Some buildings can be advanced. Its owners can spend time and resources improving these buildings, which not only enhances the facilities they provide but also changes the building's visual appearance. Advancing a building happens in real time just like construction did, except that during the process of advancement, the building remains open for use.

Inns

Inns are public houses where characters can meet to conduct business face to face, to share stories, form groups, or just mingle with one another. Inns are typically built near roads or well-used trails. Characters can be safely logged off at an inn. Inns have limited local storage.

Advancing an inn can improve the structural integrity of the inn and affect the types of PvE content that are generated in its hex.

Inns can be destroyed by individuals. If an inn is destroyed, any objects in its local storage are destroyed as well."

[Andius]

Urman wrote:

Andius wrote:

1. A hunger system creates a constant need for food. Food is a resource. That is going to create an economy for food. Especially if things like dried meat and waybread are created that are either non-perishable or have a very slow rate of decay.

3. If properly designed, a hunger/sleep system will draw people into inns when they are traveling away from their homes. And I think inns are a feature that A LOT of people want to see emphasized in this game.

I'd think that implementing lots of food objects that need to be managed could put huge demands on the game. (Think "how fresh are the 50 different food objects in Urman's pack right now?" x 50k players).

Wurm Online did it, on top of a fully terraformable world both above and below ground every single item came with it's own quality and decay score. That is every item in your inventory and sitting out around the world. The only time it made any notable impact on performance is if you had multiple windows open in addition to your inventory, for instance you skills window, inventory window, and an open container such as a forge.

Given Wurm Online is made by a basement company that is lucky to have more than 200 players online at all times on all servers... I expect better of PFO. If I didn't expect PFO to surpass basement companies I wouldn't be wasting my time here. I would be playing an existing basement company game like Wurm, Xsyon, Darkfall or Mortal. All good games. But PFO can do better. I'm putting my faith in the fact that it will easily outshine all four games I just listed within a year or two of it's initial launch.

Now I don't expect PFO to be fully terraformable, or give every item a ton of stats. I do expect them to be able to handle a little data here and there though. Also you don't have to break the items in player X's inventory down into 30 pieces of bread, 15 of cheese, and 5 of meat. Make bread/meat/cheese weigh more, and allow people to remove pieces from larger objects and make it so eating reduces the weight until it hits 0 rather than consuming the whole object. Simple solution that means now you have 3 objects to deal with. Not so challenging anymore.