Ranged touch attacks and Combat Feats


Rules Questions


Hi, I could use some help in the clarification of spells that are made with a ranged touch roll and how feats affect them.

I understand from the FAQs, that rays count as a ranged weapon and thus benefit from feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise shot. Now, does this same apply for ALL spells that roll a ranged touch to hit a target?

In other words, if a spell requires a ranged touch, but it is NOT a ray, can they still benefit from feats such as PBS and PS?

Thank you.


I honestly can't think of any ranged touch spells that aren't rays. For instance Disintegrate has "ray" under the effect line and the description is "a thin green ray".

If by chance there are any range touch spells that are not rays, as a GM i would let any feats/abilities apply to those spells. After all, if a spell reads like a ray and the mechanics are like a ray.....


laarddrym wrote:

I honestly can't think of any ranged touch spells that aren't rays. For instance Disintegrate has "ray" under the effect line and the description is "a thin green ray".

If by chance there are any range touch spells that are not rays, as a GM i would let any feats/abilities apply to those spells. After all, if a spell reads like a ray and the mechanics are like a ray.....

Thanks for the input.

Well, one example that fits is Acid Arrow (pg 239 on the main book). It requires a ranged touch to hit but it is not listed as a ray.

Things like a Wizard's school-based abilities, such as the Transmutation school supernatural ability Telekinetic Fist, is also a ranged touch to to hit but is not a ray.


Supernatural abilities are not ray spells, so the feats would not apply. (Su) abilities already have their own benefits in that they generally do not provoke AOOs and they completely ignore spell resistance!

Acid Arrow is an awful, awful spell. First, it can be "neutralized". I'm not sure how, but it's in the spell description. Secondly, it is a damage spell, but not a burst damage spell, and a low damage spell at that. Consider that Scorching Ray does 4d6 damage per ray and maxes out at 3 rays for 12d6 damage at level 11. Acid arrow maxes out at 12d4 damage, but not until level 18, and it's only 2d4 damage per round. Anything that has resistance 5/acid won't even notice it. Conversely, a creature with resistance 20/fire will still take some damage from a 12d6 Scorching Ray most of the time.

On top of that, Acid Arrow is a conjuration spell, which means it summons forth an actual physical acid-shaped blob of acid. (It's the reason it ignores spell resistance: you are not shooting magical acid at someone, you have actual acid from the "Plane of Acid" or wherever it comes from, and you magically mold it into an arrow form. Nothing magical about the acid itself, it's only magically propelled from your hand.) Since Acid Arrow is not a ray, I would be hesistant to give it a bonus from Wpn Focus: Rays if i were the GM. On the other hand, with a spell that awful you need all the help you can get =)


Actually a ray does not have to come from a spell so it would apply. Rays from spells was just used an an example in the FAQ. The game makes no distinction between the source of the ray for the purpose of this feat.


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To clarify, it doesn't matter if the 'ray' is from a SP or SU type ability (as long as it refers back to a spell with the ray descriptor).

Also, if the spell doesn't mention 'ray' it doesn't gain the benefits of WF (Ray) or the likes.


concerro wrote:
Actually a ray does not have to come from a spell so it would apply. Rays from spells was just used an an example in the FAQ. The game makes no distinction between the source of the ray for the purpose of this feat.

so by this ruling, Acid Arrow would not be affected by Weapon Focus: Ray as it is not a ray. similarly, Telekinetic Fist would not be affected by Weapon Focus: Ray as it, too, is not a ray.

I suppose there's not an FAQ or Errata on whether you can take "Weapon Focus: Non-Ray SP & SU Ranged Touch Attacks"


Skylancer4 wrote:

To clarify, it doesn't matter if the 'ray' is from a SP or SU type ability (as long as it refers back to a spell with the ray descriptor).

Also, if the spell doesn't mention 'ray' it doesn't gain the benefits of WF (Ray) or the likes.

I agree that if the spell doesn't mention 'ray' then it shouldn't gain the benefits of feats SPECIFIC to rays, such as WF: Rays, BUT, what about feats that affect ranged attacks in general?

Feats like PBS and Precise Shot affect ranged attacks as a whole, and so is a ranged touch (from a spell) considered attacking with a ranged weapon, thus benefiting from such feats?


laarddrym wrote:
concerro wrote:
Actually a ray does not have to come from a spell so it would apply. Rays from spells was just used an an example in the FAQ. The game makes no distinction between the source of the ray for the purpose of this feat.

so by this ruling, Acid Arrow would not be affected by Weapon Focus: Ray as it is not a ray. similarly, Telekinetic Fist would not be affected by Weapon Focus: Ray as it, too, is not a ray.

I suppose there's not an FAQ or Errata on whether you can take "Weapon Focus: Non-Ray SP & SU Ranged Touch Attacks"

Correct on both accounts.

The quick and dirty answer is No and neither FAQ or Errata is needed. Spells are spells, not weapons (unless otherwise noted). If the spell doesn't have a line like "this spell is treated like a scimitar" or "ray" than there isn't a way to get WF tagged on to it [WF (unarmed strike) works for melee touch attacks though I believe].


Seng wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

To clarify, it doesn't matter if the 'ray' is from a SP or SU type ability (as long as it refers back to a spell with the ray descriptor).

Also, if the spell doesn't mention 'ray' it doesn't gain the benefits of WF (Ray) or the likes.

I agree that if the spell doesn't mention 'ray' then it shouldn't gain the benefits of feats SPECIFIC to rays, such as WF: Rays, BUT, what about feats that affect ranged attacks in general?

Feats like PBS and Precise Shot affect ranged attacks as a whole, and so is a ranged touch (from a spell) considered attacking with a ranged weapon, thus benefiting from such feats?

I never said they didn't, it is a given they do what they say they do.

When I said "the likes" it was in reference to feats that require a 'weapon' to be selected. Improved Crit, etc.


I appreciate the responses so far, but I don't think anybody has actually answered my question.

Do feats that affect ranged attack rolls, such as Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, affect ranged touch spells that are not rays.

I'm not asking about whether ranged touch spells are affected by feats that specifically affect rays, such as Weapon Focus: Rays or Weapon Specialization: Rays.

I'm asking about feats that affect ranged attacks, ie PBS and PS.


laarddrym wrote:
concerro wrote:
Actually a ray does not have to come from a spell so it would apply. Rays from spells was just used an an example in the FAQ. The game makes no distinction between the source of the ray for the purpose of this feat.

so by this ruling, Acid Arrow would not be affected by Weapon Focus: Ray as it is not a ray. similarly, Telekinetic Fist would not be affected by Weapon Focus: Ray as it, too, is not a ray.

I suppose there's not an FAQ or Errata on whether you can take "Weapon Focus: Non-Ray SP & SU Ranged Touch Attacks"

Correct. If ranged touch attacks was allowed it would just be "ranged touch" without the SU or SP. The weapon is still the same no matter the source.


Yes Seng, PBS and PS do affect those attacks since they are still ranged attacks. It is often suggested to take Precise Shot if you are a ray or ranged attack specialist. Touch AC is not normally that high, but if the enemy is in combat with a party member and has soft cover he effectively has a +8 to his AC.


Sorry, I interpreted the question beyond what you were actually asking. I concur with Concerro, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot would both apply to any ranged attack, whether it be a ray or another form of a ranged touch attack.

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