Hi everyone, I'm planning on starting a homebrew PF PbP here on the Paizo forums. The campaign will start off in the small village of Briston in Varisia, and the PCs will likely be village locals. I want to generate a feeling that, before the adventure begins, the PCs were considered relatively average (maybe slightly above-average) citizens of the town, and within a few encounters will rise to become local heroes.
I've been debating between using the 15 or 20 point buy options. The truth is I've never even played a 15 point buy game, so I have no actual experience with it, but I've been leaning toward using it for the PCs of this campaign. I feel like it would, at least for the early part of the campaign, keep the PCs from feeling like they were born the heroes of Briston, but rather they had to earn the title.
So I guess my question is: what are other GMs experiences on the difference between GMing for 15 and 20 point buy games? And even 25 point buy games, for that matter? How much do the PCs varying ability scores actually affect the game?
15 point buys will crimp some options, as may feats require a certain ability score, especially when those ability scores aren't the primary stat for that class. You'll see fewer fighters with combat expertise, for example. You'll see fewer skill points in classes that aren't skill monkeys since that extra point of INT has to come from a smaller pool. Be prepared for everyone (with an exception or two) to sink like stones the first time they're forced to swim.
Expect your players to attempt to make up the difference with magic by obtaining tombs and belts/circlets etc.
Most of the campaigns I play IN have an opposite effect going on, since magical healing and magic items are rare, the DM gives generous point buys to compensate.
i've played a 10 point buy before. Honestly its not THAT big of a deal, but it depends on classes. A wizard doesn't require many points at all to get what he needs, while other classes that require 3 or more attributes to be effective will struggle.
In my 10 point buy we all acted as normal citizens a lot like what you're talking about, but it feels very similar to a 20 point buy- you just aren't as rocking and you are required to take a dump stat or two.
Your players will be more likely to dump stats and less likely to play MAD classes on 15 point buy. Which is not, necessarily, a bad thing... but make sure the players know you're doing 15 points before anyone starts concepting characters (else you may frustrate someone who starts writing up something especially MAD), and I guess just be prepared for them all going pretty specialized into their roles.
The 15 point buy effectively shuts down a few builds, but other than that it's not much of a difference.
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15 points is still plenty for the PCs to feel heroic - remember the standard NPC loadout is 3 points. Even "gritty" 10 point buy is 7 points better than the average commoner. I'm currently near the end of an AP where we built with 15 points and it was plenty. And my fighter did take Combat Expertise, thank you very much.
I tend to think of the point buy as choosing something like a "difficulty setting," where 15 is "normal," 10 is "hard mode," and 20 is "easy mode." 20 allows players to make PCs that feel comfortable, who don't have any true weaknesses as far as abilities go, or who do have a weakness but also almost superhuman strengths. 15 points usually leaves a player feeling a little "hungry" for points, and they'll have to make some tougher choices.
I think a lot of players fixate on 20 because PFS uses it. Remember that PFS isn't meant to be very difficult, and has artificial difficulty added due to party composition variance.
Really, though, you need to go with what your players are happy with. If they feel they are going to be "miserably weak" with 15 points, they won't enjoy the campaign as much. I'd talk it over with them, mention the "feel" you're going for, and see what they think.
If your player group is very experienced, ask them if they would like to do a 15 point buy. Offer that it will be "hard mode" and you will be able to use the monsters in the book to challenge them without a lot of extra tinkering. They might go for it.
Otherwise, 20 points is fine. There isn't a huge difference. Furthermore, the difference tends to lessen over time, as they level. 25 Points generally helps the players waltz through the first few levels, but doesn't really help all that much past mid levels.
The higher the point buy, the easier it is to play weird classes like monks and paladins. Lower point buy favors specialized classes.
If you're willing to go as low as 15 points, consider offering 15 point buy OR roll 4d6 drop the lowest. They should create roughly equivalent arrays, but the risk-takers might get lucky and roll well enough to make a paladin work. That'd be just like the old days.
I thought 15-point-buy was regular mode, not hard mode. The one campaign I'm running uses 15-point-buy, and there hasn't been any trouble.
I thought 15-point-buy was regular mode, not hard mode. The one campaign I'm running uses 15-point-buy, and there hasn't been any trouble.
Of course. But PFS uses 20, and a lot of players are used to 15 as "the lowest". It's all relative.
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So I guess my question is: what are other GMs experiences on the difference between GMing for 15 and 20 point buy games? And even 25 point buy games, for that matter? How much do the PCs varying ability scores actually affect the game?
I've run PFS (20 pt buy) and my own homebrew (15 pt buy). In the homebrew the encounter levels actually matched the PC levels expectations.
In PFS, things got wonky. 20 pt buy means that the PCs are (roughly) one level higher, so that meant that an adventure designed for 2nd level PCs with 15 pt buys should be the equivalent. But, it didn't work out that way because of the HP deficit. Once the bad guys start landing solid hits, the PCs fall left and right. If the PCs win initiative, the encounter is over quickly.
If you're doing your own homebrew, that means you're designing your own encounters. You're going to be checking the Core Rulebook on how to set the effective encounter level, and the Core Rulebook is using math for a 15 pt buy. I haven't seen math here on the boards on designing encounters for a 20 pt buy with regard to the HP deficit problem, but if anyone does have a link I'd like to check it out.
-Perry
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It totally depends on how many players you have, how much they optimize, and how much you want to tailor encounters.
I generally play with three players, so I give more points then if I were playing with four or more (I think if I had 6 or 7 players, I might use 10 point buy). I also say no scores lower then 10, and no scores above 17 after racial adjustments. This helps the "MAD" classes, tones down full casters, and cuts down on people playing chaotic-stupid-psychotic characters. Folks end up with more skill points, better ability to contribute out-of-combat, and generally solid saves, AC, etc.
Wow, thanks for the many responses! Alright, I think I will go with 15 point buy and will try to be generous with my magic item distribution to even out any difficulties as they arise.