Magus, Spell Combat and Spellstrike


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And a second point. Arcane Mark lets you "inscribe your personal rune or mark" not whatever you want. Yes it doesn't specifically say you can't decide that today your rune will say "kick me" and tomorrow it will say $%#!@&. But, it also doesn't say you can change you personal mark willy nilly. This should be discussed with you GM as he/she may see your rune/mark as being a much more permanent thing, similar a royal seal, used to prevent forgeries and posing. I saw something in another post about one of the 3.5 worlds backstory having Arcane Marks working that way. If your GM is OK with you writing whatever (as I assume yours is Xoshack Ostarian) great. But don't be showing up to a table with a new GM assuming that is the case.


There is cheese, as I see it, in using Arcane Mark to get that 2nd attack. Is it legit? Apparently, yes. But even the developer said 'no rulings here', so he was smelling the cheese.

So if you use it, prepare for charges of cheese. If you get it accepted at the table, be accepting of Spellcraft-capable foes identifying the lack of danger in the Arcane Mark spell, and not providing the opening for your weapon strike. You get to deliver that touch attack, and leave an Arcane Mark. And at my table, you don't get to declare it's on their forehead, cheek, nose, or cornea... unless they are already subdued.

What's a Magus to do? (switching from GM's viking helmet to my Magus' feathered broadbrim...)

Cast Chill Touch before the engagement. When the too-clever foe too-cleverly allows the Arcane Mark, he can read in the runes, "Thought he was more clever than (personal rune)", and take damage and fatigue. And then again, when you use the normal weapon strike.

Get a Touch Injection elixir and whatever nasty surprise to put in it. Waters of Lamashtu, perhaps.

Play a Hexcrafter Magus, and use Brand.

Research a 1-HP-damage Cantrip, Nugent's Catscratch, perhaps.

Scarab Sages

DarthGoob wrote:

Hopefully I can get a designer to see this and make an "official" comment.

When using Spell Combat and Spellstrike as a full-round action, you can potentially deal:

Weapon damage from main hand.

PLUS

Touch range spell damage + weapon damage (spell can be delivered through the "off-hand attack"

I had a magus in my game last night using the Arcane Mark spell to try and get this to get 2 attacks with his weapon and spell damage (I know that spell doesn't do dmg, but it counts for the cheese of making the wording of Spell Combat and Spellstrike work for this situation).

Is that right?

Yes this is right.

It is also less efficient than two-weapon fighting. The magus has to make an extra roll to get his extra attack off.


Thornborn wrote:
If you get it accepted at the table, be accepting of Spellcraft-capable foes identifying the lack of danger in the Arcane Mark spell, and not providing the opening for your weapon strike. You get to deliver that touch attack, and leave an Arcane Mark.

You seem to be misunderstanding the situation. Spellstrike allows a magus to deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. He replaces the melee touch attack with a melee attack with his weapon. If he hits, the melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.

If a GM wants to houserule that the enemy will allow me to strike him with my weapon because of a harmless spell effect that's about to be delivered in addition to my weapon damage, I'm fine with that.

Thornborn wrote:
Cast Chill Touch before the engagement. When the too-clever foe too-cleverly allows the Arcane Mark, he can read in the runes, "Thought he was more clever than (personal rune)", and take damage and fatigue.

If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. So as soon as you cast arcane mark, you lose the held charge of chill touch.

Contributor

GreenMandar wrote:

When I first read about people using Arcane Mark with Spellstrike, I REALLY hated the incredible cheese of it. I had just assumed you couldn't. That was based on the idea that the spell caster literally writes on the object when casting Arcane Mark. And people were and still are talking about how they are using it "Zorro" style to carve the mark into their opponent.

Cheese source #1 - That means it's just as easy to carve up to six characters onto an opponents skin as simply trying hit them, and you could be doing the carving with a blunt weapon.
Cheese source #2 - Even if you accept the above as feasible, how is carving or bruising six characters into the skin of an opponent going to do the same damage as plunging a rapier into them, a deep slice of a scimitar or smacking them upside the head with a staff?

I personally feel like the "Arcane Mark Spellstrike Cheese" isn't all that cheesy. Its not really worth it to just Arcane Mark / Spellstrike as a standard action; you're making one attack and putting a magical mark on your foe. Its only worth it when you're also using Spell Combat, in which case, combining Arcane Mark with Spellstrike basically turns Spell Combat into a slightly better Two-Weapon Fighting. Considering you don't get Improved TWF and Greater TWF for free like the Monk does as you level, I'd say the tactic is hardly overpowered at all.

Quote:
So, that lead me to the other way of interpreting Arcane Mark, which is that spell actually etches the mark onto the object or opponent when you touch it. This makes it work just like any other touch attack, your opponent doesn't need to stand still while you write on them. You are hitting them like normal, but your mark would be left where the blow landed. Much more believable.

The spell seems to imply that the markings just magically appear and that there is a limit to the number of characters one spell could do. Like, "Ah ha! I touch you and now the word LOSER appears on your chest! I'm such a troll!"

Quote:
I'm sure many of you were already aware of and using the second interpretation, and this isn't specifically about "rules". I'm bringing this up for the benefit of any players and GMs out there who want to play RAW (and give the low level Magus the free attacks), but are still thinking of this as the "Zorro" style, and can't get past the ulracheese that goes with it.

Its not really a free attack. A –2 penalty on attack rolls is pretty huge for a low BAB class, and its not any better than Two-Weapon Fighting. That's all the Arcane Mark combo allows you to do, and again, the Magus doesn't even do it as well as the Monk, who essentially has a Fighter's BAB when using Flurry of Blows.

However, as Cheapy said, a much better combo would be to take the Magus arcane that lets you learn Wizard spells and add Touch of Fatigue to your Magus spell list. Its a melee touch spell (awesome) that is a cantrip (even better) that has a chance to fatigue your opponent (sweet) that can be used in a Spellstrike. (No. Freaking. Way.)


@Alexander Augunas, to be clear, I'm not at all saying "cheese" because I think it's unbalanced in anyway, heck from a balance stand point it's unfair to the vanilla Magus NOT to allow Arcane Mark with Spellstrike. I was mainly saying thematically it's didn't make sense based on my initial interpretation. My reinterpretation of how Arcane Mark could works seems to be how you were reading it all along. I think we are on the same page on this.
However there are people out there that seem to think this allows their Magus to "carve" marks into opponents. This is what I'm calling ultra cheese.
I called it a free attack, because it's a free action granted by a touch spell, I agree it's not "free" of downsides.


Bbauzh ap Aghauzh wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Justin Riddler wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

Villain makes Spellcraft check:

"Oh, Arcane Mark. I'm willing to accept that."
Magus:
"Willing? Ah, crap, there goes my extra attack."

WAIT! Would that actually work???
Only if the GM is the type of person who is more interested in finding questionably-legal loopholes with which to enforce his preferences in spite of what the Lead Designer of the whole game says is legit, than he is in playing fair and ensuring players have fun.

Or if it thematically makes sense for the Villain to do something like that. It isn't all a conspiracy of trying to take down legal options Jiggy.

If players get to use spellcraft to constantly figure out what the BBEG is casting, then why wouldn't a Wizard BBEG get the same luxury. In this case, the BBEG is probably extremely intelligent and able to make savvy tactical decisions.

The accepting does not mean "I accept it and wont complain later if you manage to hit me, but will stab you if I can."

It means "Does not resist, dodge, attack, but makes himself defenseless and unmoving considering this one spell/move/whatever and allows things being done to him by another character".

As a result, the situation gets pretty stupid if it would actually work. The Enemy CAN, theoretically "allow" the mark to be drawn. However, in reality this leads to a situation where he leaves himself completely defenseless, and this situation should allow the player to change his attack the last second to a coup de grace. After all, the enemy ALLOWS himself to be hurt FIRST, and is by all purposes defenceless.
However this is not allowed, unless expressly stated anyway, which bypasses the need for the mark anyway, as the Bad Guy commits suicide by Hero.

So the Enemy CAN do that, but there is still no reason it should work the way he wants it. He CAN use spellcraft, he CAN leave himself open, he CAN get a sword in his gut.

Think about it this way of not doing it: The Hero prepares to cast the spell, the enemy says he accepts it, and then... what? The spell fizzles because of a.... counterspell? Does the enemy actually cast a spell? The Hero becomes incapable of finishing the strike because of "insert supernatural effect here"?
What does the baddie ACTUALLY do to prevent the strike?
Say "I accept it" and the attack simply fails?

How about this: The intelligent and savvy hero simply accepts verbally as a Free Action everything that is done to him, becoming completely invulnerable to all attacks by sentient creatures who are able to understand him?
No. We dont want this game to be filled by nothing but deaf oracles.


This thread needs to be moved to its rightful place in the afterlife.

Also: if the target is willing, the touch spell is delivered automatically, without a to-hit roll. I.e., a magus can deliver touch spells to friendly targets as a part of spell combat. That spell can be delivered via the magus' weapon.

Normally I would only do this with a whip, to deliver a critical buff or heal, but if my opponent is willing ...

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