Thank you for humoring me in my request everyone. I hope it provided a little insight (whether or not it came up to 2/3). Those numbers add up really fast.
Thanks in particular, to DeathQuaker, whose summary of the situation above, I find to be most accurate and helpful.
That's baseless speculation.
No it's not. It's based on observation.
Ok, I took you up on this challange. I pulled up 10 of my old characters. Took out the rule book from the edition they came from and looked at the outcome.
More encumbered then marked on sheet: 1
In the right level as marked on sheet: 7
Less encumbered then marked on sheet: 2So yes, 10% of my characters (1) I had failed the guess on. I cheeted myself on 20% (2).
What does this mean? I failed 30% of the time to get it right either way. And I still have to ask myself, did it really matter? Not really.
I didn't ask if it was off from what was recorded on your sheet, I asked if it was higher than you were expecting it to be. A subtle difference.
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I didn't ask if it was off from what was recorded on your sheet, I asked if it was higher than you were expecting it to be. A subtle difference.
Ah, in that case then no. I knew my swordsage would be pushing it, and knew that my cleric was weak. But then, I was pretty new to the game then and didn't understand encumbrance very well either. I'll be more interested in my PFS characters and how I may need to adjust them.
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Yes, if you already play by your set of houserules the problem don't exist.Did anyone say otherwise?
I've been saying all along that it is not a big enough problem to errata. Sean seems to agree, which is always a weird feeling for me.
The point is that you where, apparently, presenting an test on the basis of "show me that checking the encumbrance of these guys instead of eyeballing it would make a difference" then you pulled a set of houserules to say that it don't make a difference.
Using the CRB a character has to eat and drink, he consume the ammunitions when he use a bow.
Even a 3.5 Scout need to keep himself in the light encumbrance bracket to use its abilities fully.
So my question is:
What was the point of your post?
With TOZ houserules these guys don't have any problem?
I didn't ask if it was off from what was recorded on your sheet, I asked if it was higher than you were expecting it to be. A subtle difference.Ah, in that case then no. I knew my swordsage would be pushing it, and knew that my cleric was weak. But then, I was pretty new to the game then and didn't understand encumbrance very well either. I'll be more interested in my PFS characters and how I may need to adjust them.
Curious definition of "pushing it", even with your houserules the swordsage was 7 lbs above light encumbrance. With 19 lbs as light load that is 36% above the limit. More than pushing that seem breaking and entering.
Just caught up on this thread (I was bored) and wanted to point out one thing that apparently passed unchallenged.
From Monday 10/1 5:18pm:
I don't believe I said they were an error
From Monday 9/10 9:51pm (big date jump, but only nine posts earlier in the thread):
Yeah, the kits had a lot of potential. Instead, they are crap in terms of making equipping characters quickly and more easily. The numbers for many of them are way off, which means I'm still forced to look up cost and weight values.
You can't just buy them "as is" on account of the errors.
YRTE, HTH, HAND, etc.
I'm not known for my great memory, Mr. Harris. If I didn't keep extensive records of the developers' posts, I wouldn't even be able to remember various rulings--I'm a great rules lawyer, not for my memory, but for my awesome search fu.
The responses you posted were also over two weeks apart, so I'm not surprised I was in error. I was speaking honestly, if mistakenly, when I said " I don't believe I said they were an error."
So my question is:
What was the point of your post?
With TOZ houserules these guys don't have any problem?The point? Providing RD the information he asked about.
I currently don't have any houserules, so I can't really say. I imagine in mdt's home game they would.
I'm pretty sure not requiring characters to eat or drink, nor requiring them to use ammunition for ranged weapons is a house rule. Arrows, food, and water all have weight, after all, and are often some of the most significant factors in encumbrance.
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I'm pretty sure not requiring characters to eat or drink, nor requiring them to use ammunition for ranged weapons is a house rule. Arrows, food, and water all have weight, after all, and are often some of the most significant factors in encumbrance.So my question is:
What was the point of your post?
With TOZ houserules these guys don't have any problem?The point? Providing RD the information he asked about.
I currently don't have any houserules, so I can't really say. I imagine in mdt's home game they would.
Sure, those 20 arrows and 10 trail rations > full plate. :)
Sure, those 20 arrows and 10 trail rations > full plate. :)I'm pretty sure not requiring characters to eat or drink, nor requiring them to use ammunition for ranged weapons is a house rule. Arrows, food, and water all have weight, after all, and are often some of the most significant factors in encumbrance.So my question is:
What was the point of your post?
With TOZ houserules these guys don't have any problem?The point? Providing RD the information he asked about.
I currently don't have any houserules, so I can't really say. I imagine in mdt's home game they would.
A man's gotta eat :)
10 rations will feed you for 10 days; 20 arrows will serve you for maybe one day. If you're carrying enough food and arrows for 10 days, that will in fact equal up to full plate. ;)
10 rations will feed you for 10 days; 20 arrows will serve you for maybe one day. If you're carrying enough food and arrows for 10 days, that will in fact equal up to full plate. ;)
And hell, save on the rations and get ranks in survival. Easily feed yourself. And tell the weather... 24 hours in advance... As an ex meteorology student, I only dream I could do that ;)
I didn't ask if it was off from what was recorded on your sheet, I asked if it was higher than you were expecting it to be. A subtle difference.
Sorry I should have been clear. I wrote the level I thought I was at on the sheets without doing the exact math. I did the math when I checked them as part of your challange. And you were right, I did have one of the ten that should have been higher. I also admit to being wrong on three of them in total. That is a higher % then I would have liked.
In any case, enjoy the rest of your conversation.
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Core Rulebook page 168:
If
The whole point of the "medium armor is a medium load" rule is so you don't have to track every individual item's weight and compare it to the Carrying Capacity table. You can just say, "I'm wearing medium armor, therefore I have a medium load."
Notice that breastplate armor weighs 30 lbs., but gives you a medium load whether your Str is 5 (medium starts at 17 lbs.), 10 (34 lbs.), 15 (67 lbs.), or 20 (134 lbs). That means if you're wearing breastplate, you can pack on additional gear and still be well within your medium load, even if you use the "add it up" method.
Notice that full plate weighs 50 lbs., but gives you a heavy load whether your Str is 5 (heavy starts at 34 lbs.), 10 (67 lbs.), 15 (134 lbs.), or 20 (267 lbs). That means if you're wearing full plate, you can pack on additional gear and still be well within your heavy load, even if you use the "add it up" method.
It's to your advantage to use the simple method. If you're counting individual pounds, you're (1) making more work for yourself tracking those details, and (2) doing so to find out if your gear makes you more encumbered than the flat encumbrance from your armor. You're doing more work with the potential of making your character worse off (more encumbered) than if you left it alone. There is no "use whichever method makes you the least encumbered" rule; if you add it up, at best you're the same, at worst you're worse off.
Especially considering that you're choosing to use the "add it up" method--the quoted rule says "If you want to determine..." You don't have to do it that way. In fact, the rules assume you aren't doing it the hard way.
The game allows you to eat dirt. If you choose to eat dirt, you may become confused that the game doesn't give specifics on how much dirt you have to eat in order to avoid starvation.
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The game allows you to eat dirt. If you choose to eat dirt, you may become confused that the game doesn't give specifics on how much dirt you have to eat in order to avoid starvation.
You're my new favorite person.
- Torger
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I'm not known for my great memory, Mr. Harris. If I didn't keep extensive records of the developers' posts, I wouldn't even be able to remember various rulings--I'm a great rules lawyer, not for my memory, but for my awesome search fu.
The responses you posted were also over two weeks apart, so I'm not surprised I was in error. I was speaking honestly, if mistakenly, when I said " I don't believe I said they were an error."
Not really my point. You're arguing that accuracy--by way of tracking encumbrance down to ounces--is essential. But you can't be bothered to go back one page in a conversation to check on what you said before telling someone they misrepresented your words. This speaks to your ethos, especially in the current conversation, and is relevant to the way people will evaluate your statements.
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Right above the carrying capacity table and your quote, Sean:
Encumbrance by Armor: A character's armor determines his maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, armor check penalty, speed, and running speed. Unless your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, that's all you need to know; the extra gear your character carries won't slow him down any more than the armor already does.
If your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, however, then you'll to calculate encumbrance by weight. Doing so is most important when your character is trying to carry some heavy object.
So encumbrance by armor explicitly doesn't apply to characters with below-average Str scores and (I presume) characters who don't wear armor. Personally, I think I've only ever run one PC who wears anything heavier than light armor, anyway. Skills and speed are too important to me.
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Core Rulebook page 168:
If
The whole point of the "medium armor is a medium load" rule is so you don't have to track every individual item's weight and compare it to the Carrying Capacity table. You can just say, "I'm wearing medium armor, therefore I have a medium load."
Notice that breastplate armor weighs 30 lbs., but gives you a medium load whether your Str is 5 (medium starts at 17 lbs.), 10 (34 lbs.), 15 (67 lbs.), or 20 (134 lbs). That means if you're wearing breastplate, you can pack on additional gear and still be well within your medium load, even if you use the "add it up" method.
Notice that full plate weighs 50 lbs., but gives you a heavy load whether your Str is 5 (heavy starts at 34 lbs.), 10 (67 lbs.), 15 (134 lbs.), or 20 (267 lbs). That means if you're wearing full plate, you can pack on additional gear and still be well within your heavy load, even if you use the "add it up" method.
It's to your advantage to use the simple method. If you're counting individual pounds, you're (1) making more work for yourself tracking those details, and (2) doing so to find out if your gear makes you more encumbered than the flat encumbrance from your armor. You're doing more work with the potential of making your character worse off (more encumbered) than if you left it alone. There is no "use whichever method makes you the least encumbered" rule; if you add it up, at best you're the same, at worst you're worse off.
Especially considering that you're choosing to use the "add it up" method--the quoted rule says "If you want to determine..." You don't have to do it that way. In fact, the rules assume you aren't doing it the hard way.
The game allows you to eat dirt. If you choose to eat dirt, you may become confused that the game doesn't give specifics on how much dirt you have to eat in order to avoid starvation.
So, if you have a Str 12 Rogue and you are wearing studded leather armor (light armor, 20 lbs), and carrying a short bow (2 lbs), forty arrows (6 lbs), a short sword (2 lbs), a dagger (1 lb), two belt pouches (1 lb) with masterwork thieves tools in one (2 lbs), and a backpack (2 lbs) with a bedroll (5 lbs), a winter blanket (3 lbs), ten pitons (5 lbs), 10 days of trail trations (10 lbs), 100' of silk rope (10 lbs), soap (1 lb), three full waterskins (12 lbs), a whetstone (1 lb), an everburning torch (1 lb), a tanglefoot bag (4 lbs), and a spare traveler's outfit (5 lbs), and your total wealth on hand is 327 gold and 85 silver (8 lbs [8.24 lbs, if you want to get technical]); you should still be at a light load because that is the encumbrance of your armor?
Your total weight carried is 101+ lbs, which for a Strength of 12 puts you at heavily encumbered. But none of that matters because he is wearing light armor? Come on, Sean. I wouldn't let that fly in my one of my games, and I doubt that you would either. Sure, he can drop the backpack to get down to 32 lbs (and a light load), but until he does, he is heavily encumbered.
MA
Let's take this encumbrance discussion elsewhere. I've started a thread, Armor, Equipment, and Encumbrance: How Do You Play?.
MA
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If your character is weak or carrying a lot of gear, however, then you'll to calculate encumbrance by weight. Doing so is most important when your character is trying to carry some heavy object.
"A lot" is the important part of the sentence. If a rogue in light armor wants to carry a couple of masterwork short swords looted from an assassin so she can sell them later, I'm not going to bother with adding up that individual weight. If she wants to carry a couple of suits of masterwork full plate looted from some cultists so she can sell them later, yeah, I may want her to add up her gear.
Assuming she doesn't have a bag of holding, the smallest of which holds 250 lbs. (about a max load for a 17 Str character), and can therefore hold 5 suits of masterwork full plate. Nitpicking pounds like this just means that a bag of holding or a handy haversack becomes an "equipment tax" for anyone in your campaign who's carrying more than about 30 pounds.
If you're going to nitpick weight, fine. If you think that's fun. Track empty/full waterskin weight and empty/full potion weight. Figure out the weight of 250 gp worth of diamond dust for your stoneskin material component (house rule!). Track scroll weight. Track clothing weight. Weigh your hair when it grows. Weigh your food and ale before you eat it. Get a weight receipt when you use the outhouse. Track how much temporary weight you gain from water when you wade through a river. Track how much less weight you have after you've been suffering from filth fever for a week.
If you think that's fun, do it.
Of course, be sure to ignore all the other parts of the game where weights are just approximations, of course. Like how full plate always weighs 50 lbs. for any Medium character, from the fattest half-orc to the skinniest elf. You wouldn't want your calculations to be off by a pound.
Me, I think that level of calculation is pointless OCD and isn't important to the purpose of the game (fighting monsters and having epic adventures). But if you want to do that in your campaign, I won't stop you.
And I'm really, really done this time.
Thanks for the clarifications, Sean.
Both you and the rules seem to say that if you pick up a heavy item or a lot of loot, you may want to start tracking encumbrance at that time. I think I would rather just have an idea of how encumbered I was before I picked up said item, rather than having to do it all on the fly and interrupting the game for the ten minutes it would take to do the math. I recognize that, that is a play style issue though.
I'm with Master Arminas, it's high time we moved this discussion elsewhere.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'm willing to bet that if, those of you who don't track encumbrance (or only eyeball it, like Gorbacz seems to), picked three of your old characters at random and did the math, two of those three would come out more encumbered than you thought they would be (excepting maybe barbarians and monks).
I find this is common amongst such roleplayers. They almost always think they are doing better than they are.
#1 I thought you were done with this and didn't reply to a previous post of yours to let this thread die out.
#2 I do track encumbrance quite religiously so there is no worries about doing the math. I just don't see this as an issue, it makes tracking encumbrance easier. You buy the kit mark off the encumbrance for the kit and don't have to do a bunch of extra math. If you don't want the convenience that offers... don't use it. Personally, I like it, it lets me focus on the parts of the game I find more fun while keeping honest about weight.
I'm with Master Arminas, it's high time we moved this discussion elsewhere.
That's the second time you've said this... but you posted more. Make up your mind!
I'm with Master Arminas, it's high time we moved this discussion elsewhere.That's the second time you've said this... but you posted more. Make up your mind!
They are now over here Dennis. ;-)
So what does everyone think is the most flavorful item in Ultimate Equipment? (Apart from the Mithril Waffle Iron, of course)
To be honest, this is a hard choice to make. There are so many fun things in this book. I do want to say though that I really love the cover. For some reason it feels right. The sword calls to him... My Precious.
Angel Skin Leather Armor. Like, I seriously can't get over how f+&$ed up/awesome that is. Nothing says evil like wearing the flayed skin of a celestial.
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If you're going to nitpick weight, fine. If you think that's fun. Track empty/full waterskin weight and empty/full potion weight. Figure out the weight of 250 gp worth of diamond dust for your stoneskin material component (house rule!). Track scroll weight. Track clothing weight. Weigh your hair when it grows. Weigh your food and ale before you eat it. Get a weight receipt when you use the outhouse. Track how much temporary weight you gain from water when you wade through a river. Track how much less weight you have after you've been suffering from filth fever for a week.
If you think that's fun, do it.
I don't think being condescendent with those who play different helps anybody. This goes with both sides, but specially for a dev.
I ussually don't care that much about weight, for normal PC. BUT I nitpick every amount of weight (indluding 1 pound every 50 gold coins, potions, scrolls and scroll cases) for PC who dump STR. When someone dumps CON, the GMs don't handweave hit points and fortitude saves. I don't see why dumping STR should be free. STR 7 means you have free points to get 20 to your casting stat, but also means your tanglefoot bags weight a lot.
BTW: I thought handy haversack was already an equipment tax, if only to be able to take things as a move action that does not provoke.
EDIT: That said, I' completelly fine with people adding the weight of the standard kits.
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I don't think being condescendent with those who play different helps anybody. This goes with both sides, but specially for a dev.
I'm not being condescending, I'm being bluntly honest: if you think it's fun to track little details that I personally think detract from the fun part of playing an RPG, then do it. I'm not sending the RPG Police to stop you.
Track encumbrance to the pound if you like.
Track specific spell components if you like.
Track damage to your armor and weapons if you like.
Track specific hit locations to your body if you like.
Track if you're getting a suitable mix of protein, carbs, and fat in your diet while you adventure.
Track your birth control and reproductive cycles.
Track changing your socks so you don't get blisters after your boots get wet.
If you think that's fun, do it. I don't think that's fun, but I'm not telling you how to run your game.
Telling you "if you think that's fun, do it," isn't condescending. I don't see how telling you to have fun is condescending.
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Quick Runner’s Shirt
PRICE 1,000 gp AURA faint transmutation CL 5th WEIGHT —This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet. Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.
Construction Requirements Cost 500 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, haste
A 1.000 gp shirt that make pounce obsolete?
Apparently it allow a person to take a move action as a swift action, allowing him to make a full attack. From level 6th most melee builds should buy it.
A summoner would buy half a dozen of them for his eidolon, a bestial alchemist, any 2 weapon wielder, any build that rely on delivering multiple attacks should do the same for that price.
"I take my armor off and replace my shirt" will be the refrain after any fight, it will become one of those un-heroic things that Sean hate so much.
The only doubt could be cast by "an additional move action" that seem to imply that the wearer should have already taken a move action, but the shirt description don't spell it clearly enough to make that ruling stick. So, if it really do what it seem to do, it is way too powerful for the price.
Why then, provide the rules and necessities to play with such precision in the Core (encumbrance, down to the ounce), but then knowingly and publicly turn a blind eye towards this kind of play style in later supplements? Not only is it inconsistent, it doesn't make much sense and accomplishes little more than annoying a faction of your customers.
Why then, provide the rules and necessities to play with such precision in the Core (encumbrance),
Backwards compatibility.
but then knowingly and publicly turn a blind eye towards this kind of play style in later supplements?
There is a difference between allowing for people who want to use encumbrance in the core rules and requiring all people to use encumbrance.
How does that do anything but annoy a faction of your customers?
A "faction" of our customers are "annoyed" that we haven't published psionic, epic-level, or science fiction rules. We can't please everyone all the time.
Luckily, there are 3PP who may be interested in publishing that sort of thing. Or you can publish them yourself under the OGL.
Quick Runner’s Shirt
PRICE 1,000 gp AURA faint transmutation CL 5th WEIGHT —This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet. Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.
Construction Requirements Cost 500 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, hasteA 1.000 gp shirt that make pounce obsolete?
Apparently it allow a person to take a move action as a swift action, allowing him to make a full attack. From level 6th most melee builds should buy it.
A summoner would buy half a dozen of them for his eidolon, a bestial alchemist, any 2 weapon wielder, any build that rely on delivering multiple attacks should do the same for that price."I take my armor off and replace my shirt" will be the refrain after any fight, it will become one of those un-heroic things that Sean hate so much.
The only doubt could be cast by "an additional move action" that seem to imply that the wearer should have already taken a move action, but the shirt description don't spell it clearly enough to make that ruling stick. So, if it really do what it seem to do, it is way too powerful for the price.
There are many of these head-scratchers in Ultimate Equipment, Diego Rossi. I agree completely with you here, but bracers of the falcon, the brawling armor special property, and others that I am certain folks can name, just make you go . . . WTF?
These items have prices FAR too low for what they do.
Look at brawling. It is a +1 armor enhancement, meaning you can afford it as early as 5th or 6th level (4,000 gp). For that 4,000 gp, you not only get armor at +1 AC bonus above normal armor, you gain a +2 untyped bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls with unarmed strikes. AND a +2 untyped bonus on CMB checks for grapples.
Say what?
Yes, Virginia, this item duplicates what the +2 amulet of mighty fists does for 16,000 gp less, while adding to grapple and AC. Sure, it cannot be used for natural attacks. But seriously? Sean, you have said time and time again you do not want to "obsolete" the amulet of mighty fists. What do you think this item does? Not to mention that it STACKS with the bonus provided by an amulet of mighty fists.
To add insult to injury, you folks made it so that (unlike any other armor property) it cannot be applied to bracers of armor (since bracers are not light armor). So monks cannot use it. Gee thanks.
Just for the untyped weapon bonus alone, this property should add at least +20,000 gp to the cost of the armor it is part of. That doesn't even include the bonus on grapples, which is the equivilant of a feat.
How, pray tell, does this make any sense at all?
MA
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I don't think being condescendent with those who play different helps anybody. This goes with both sides, but specially for a dev.I'm not being condescending, I'm being bluntly honest: if you think it's fun to track little details that I personally think detract from the fun part of playing an RPG, then do it. I'm not sending the RPG Police to stop you.
My problem is that your posts have moved from "a few pound shouldn't make a difference" (perfectly acceptable) to "tracking weight is meaningless", substantially making dumping strength the perfect choice for munchkins.
"If you don't wear armor you don't need to track encumbrance unless you are carrying something extremely heavy" [that is how it sound]. Seeing how much stuff adventures haul around the weight of plenty of small items pile up fast.
You used WOW as an example, I want to counter with Fallouut 3 and Skyrim. In both games I had to pair down my load to the minimum at the start of every expedition and was in the habit of storing the loot in convenient locations along the way to keep my full mobility.
The ammunitions alone, playing with the hardcore version of Vegas, can make a significant difference.
Maybe I am strange, but I dislike it when people dump any characteristic and then try to use some "clever" way to make it meaningless. i don't see why dumping strength should get a preferential treatment.
My problem is that your posts have moved from "a few pound shouldn't make a difference" (perfectly acceptable) to "tracking weight is meaningless"
Please don't mischaracterize what I've said.
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I don't think being condescendent with those who play different helps anybody. This goes with both sides, but specially for a dev.I'm not being condescending, I'm being bluntly honest: if you think it's fun to track little details that I personally think detract from the fun part of playing an RPG, then do it. I'm not sending the RPG Police to stop you.
Track encumbrance to the pound if you like.
Track specific spell components if you like.
Track damage to your armor and weapons if you like.
Track specific hit locations to your body if you like.
Track if you're getting a suitable mix of protein, carbs, and fat in your diet while you adventure.
Track your birth control and reproductive cycles.
Track changing your socks so you don't get blisters after your boots get wet.If you think that's fun, do it. I don't think that's fun, but I'm not telling you how to run your game.
Telling you "if you think that's fun, do it," isn't condescending. I don't see how telling you to have fun is condescending.
Well, I have no interest to argue with you, but yes, that's condescending.
Saying "track encumbrance to the pound if you like" is not condescending. Saying "track changing your socks so you don't get blisters" is. Saying "Weigh your hair when it grows" is condescending. You are trying to ridiculize the other side, saying things that are not what they are defending, in an exagerated way, which is beyond irony and well into sarcasm. " Track how much temporary weight you gain from water when you wade through a river. Track how much less weight you have after you've been suffering from filth fever for a week." is condescending.
It's not the same saying "hey, I don't like vanilla, but you can eat vanilla if you want", than saying "hey, I don't like vanilla, but eat vanilla if you want. Or dirt. Or dog s%%#. It's your taste, if you like s#*~, eat it". That's pretty much what you have done here, when you have compared people who count the encumbrance to the pound (which is, actually, an option in the game) to people who count how much the hair grow.
That said, I repeat I have no interest at all to be confrontative with you. I'll keep counting the pounds to players who dump strength to 7, and I'll pass about your suggestions about counting how much the hair grow, or how much dirt my character should eat.
Yes, I personally found that list to be very condescending.
Oh boy, stuff
Well, I didn't want to say it because I am often accused of being disrepectful to Sean and other developers, but I do agree. He was rather condescending.
MA
I think you're mistaking indifference for condescension. But whatever. :)
And mind you, in the old days I've played in campaigns where you do have to track all of those things (well, except the protein/carbs/fats bit). And that was a magic-rare campaign with no cleric; we spent 2 weeks traveling and I was glad for it because it meant I my fighter could recover 14 hit points by resting. And if a PC got hit by an arrow, you had to explain how you were extracting it from their body, and if you explained it wrong, you'd take extra damage as it was pulled out. And the GM was a survivalist gun nut who had us describe exactly how we built our camps to avoid bugs, rain, and so on. So I've dealt firsthand with tracking little details. I didn't consider that level of detail fun.
Might be, English is not my main language.
By Indifference, I understand that someone doesn't care about what the other side says. For example "go ahead and count pounds to the ounce" is indiference.
By Condescension, I undestand a "I'm on a High Horse" attitude, which try to ridiculize the other side argument. For example, "go ahead and count how much the hair grows", is condescending. It's ridiculizing the other side of the debate (and a strawman fallacy, by the way).
Maybe I'm mistaken.
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Never mind. We've devoted far too much time to arguing about over one page worth of items.
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I think everyone is in too much of a hurry to take offense theses days. Seriously, the whole internet seems to be in a hurry to have their very core beliefs tramped on at a moments notice.
(Please note, this is an exaggeration on my part of course. If you read that and get mad, note that I'm not targeting anyone directly, its just a generalized observation!)
A little less emotional investment about this Ultimate Encumbrance discussion and a deep breath of fresh air would probably be for the best. I strongly believe if you were to have had that exact same discussion with Sean in person, you would probably have laughed at the end of it, as he was most likely intending to make a funny anecdote.
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Quick Runner’s Shirt
PRICE 1,000 gp AURA faint transmutation CL 5th WEIGHT —This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet. Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.
Construction Requirements Cost 500 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, hasteA 1.000 gp shirt that make pounce obsolete?
Apparently it allow a person to take a move action as a swift action, allowing him to make a full attack. From level 6th most melee builds should buy it.
A summoner would buy half a dozen of them for his eidolon, a bestial alchemist, any 2 weapon wielder, any build that rely on delivering multiple attacks should do the same for that price."I take my armor off and replace my shirt" will be the refrain after any fight, it will become one of those un-heroic things that Sean hate so much.
The only doubt could be cast by "an additional move action" that seem to imply that the wearer should have already taken a move action, but the shirt description don't spell it clearly enough to make that ruling stick. So, if it really do what it seem to do, it is way too powerful for the price.
It's not way too powerful for the price. It's an long overdue melee character fix that should/could have been a feet, IMHO. I wouldn't mind if they sold it for 250 gp.
At level 6 most characters can't afford having 4, 5 or 6 shirts. Even if they did, by level 6 spellcasters can alter reality or at least do stuff that melee dudes can only dream of. And archers? They can full attack almost always and they can use different kind of ammunition to bypass DR such as silver, cold iron, adamantite and even bludgeoning,...and they can attack flying creatures and at higher levels they can ignore concealment and they have many shot and rapid shot stacking. They can even shot into melee if they grab the right feats and use range attacks for Attack of opportunity.
At level 6 it's only one more attack per day unless the melee dude is hasted or is a TWF character. Sure he/she can get more shirts, so what. So its once per fight. I don't mind it and if any GM out there have a problem with it just raise the prize or use this (house)rule:
Sometimes a slotted wondrous item must be worn for a period of time (typically 24 hours) before the item’s full effect manifests.
Letting melee characters be able to move and full attack one per day (or once per encounter) is something melee builds needs, IMHO. True, at level 11 most characters can probably afford 4 or 5 shirts. So what. What can spell casters and archer do at level 11?
BTW, I hadn't noticed this item. Thanks for bringing it up.
Well, I have no interest to argue with you, but yes, that's condescending.
Saying "track encumbrance to the pound if you like" is not condescending. Saying "track changing your socks so you don't get blisters" is. Saying "Weigh your hair when it grows" is condescending. You are trying to ridiculize the other side, saying things that are not what they are defending, in an exagerated way, which is beyond irony and well into sarcasm. " Track how much temporary weight you gain from water when you wade through a river. Track how much less weight you have after you've been suffering from filth fever for a week." is condescending.
It's not the same saying "hey, I don't like vanilla, but you can eat vanilla if you want", than saying "hey, I don't like vanilla, but eat vanilla if you want. Or dirt. Or dog s@&~. It's your taste, if you like s%~!, eat it". That's pretty much what you have done here, when you have compared people who count the encumbrance to the pound (which is, actually, an option in the game) to people who count how much the hair grow.
That said, I repeat I have no interest at all to be confrontative with you. I'll keep counting the pounds to players who dump strength to 7, and I'll pass about your suggestions about counting how much the hair grow, or how much dirt my character should eat.
There is a post around here where someone seriously asked about tracking eating, not food, but actually eating, and going to the bathroom. I would say if someone is tracking that, then changing socks is not a far stretch, so I can't really agree that he was condescending. Some GM's even make you track spell compontents, and to me that is just as nitpicky as trying to guess how much weight you lost from being sick. With that aside I think the option to track everything should be an option, and not a rule.
PS:He was basically saying track whatever you want to track, but there is no reason to make it the default assumption of the game.
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I think the Shirt of go fast is alright. I mean really. Once per day ability negating pounce altogether? I don't think so.
I also see a problem with the shirt. Namely the idea of replacing it after every battle.
BUT, I think that is easily fixed by:
A) Throwing a hard object of moderate weight (such as a book) at the player that tries that cheese.
B) Houseruling that the shirt has a 24hour attunement.
My real problem is Feather Step Slippers. For a mind boggling price of 2000gp completely negates two feats (Nimble Steps and Acrobatic Moves).
I get that they were based off of a spell. However, they are simply too inexpensive for what they do.
- Gauss
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My problem is that your posts have moved from "a few pound shouldn't make a difference" (perfectly acceptable) to "tracking weight is meaningless"Please don't mischaracterize what I've said.
But that is exactly the message we receive.
Your position, from what we perceive, is "Look the armor encumbrance and apply that. Care about the other stuff only if they are trying to move a mountain."It work for high strength characters, it break down for low strength or small characters with normal strength.
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Quick Runner’s Shirt
PRICE 1,000 gp AURA faint transmutation CL 5th WEIGHT —This shirt is made of light, gossamer-thin fabric embroidered with arrangements of winged feet. Once per day as a swift action, the wearer can take an additional move action to move on his turn.
Construction Requirements Cost 500 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, hasteA 1.000 gp shirt that make pounce obsolete?
Apparently it allow a person to take a move action as a swift action, allowing him to make a full attack. From level 6th most melee builds should buy it.
A summoner would buy half a dozen of them for his eidolon, a bestial alchemist, any 2 weapon wielder, any build that rely on delivering multiple attacks should do the same for that price."I take my armor off and replace my shirt" will be the refrain after any fight, it will become one of those un-heroic things that Sean hate so much.
The only doubt could be cast by "an additional move action" that seem to imply that the wearer should have already taken a move action, but the shirt description don't spell it clearly enough to make that ruling stick. So, if it really do what it seem to do, it is way too powerful for the price.
It's not way too powerful for the price. It's an long overdue melee character fix that should/could have been a feet, IMHO. I wouldn't mind if they sold it for 250 gp.
At level 6 most characters can't afford having 4, 5 or 6 shirts. Even if they did, by level 6 spellcasters can alter reality or at least do stuff that melee dudes can only dream of. And archers? They can full attack almost always and they can use different kind of ammunition to bypass DR such as silver, cold iron, adamantite and even bludgeoning,...and they can attack flying creatures and at higher levels they can ignore concealment and they have many shot and rapid shot stacking. They can even shot into melee if they grab the right feats and use range attacks for Attack of opportunity.
At level 6 most characters can't afford having 4, 5 or 6 shirts. Even if they did, by level 6 spellcasters can alter reality or at least do stuff that melee dudes can only dream of. And archers? They can full attack almost always and they can use different kind of ammunition to bypass DR such as silver, cold iron, adamantite and even bludgeoning,...and they can attack flying creatures and at higher levels they can ignore concealment and they have many shot and rapid shot stacking. They can even shot into melee if they grab the right feats and use range attacks for Attack of opportunity.
At level 6 it's only one more attack per day unless the melee dude is hasted or is a TWF character. Sure he/she can get more shirts, so what. So its once per fight. I don't mind it and if any GM out there have a problem with it just raise the prize or use this (house)rule:
Ultimate Equipment wrote:Sometimes a slotted wondrous item must be worn for a period of time (typically 24 hours) before the item’s full effect manifests.Letting melee characters be able to move and full attack one per day (or once per encounter) is something melee builds needs, IMHO. True, at level 11 most characters can probably afford 4 or 5 shirts. So what. What can spell casters and archer do at level 11?
BTW, I hadn't noticed this item. Thanks for bringing it up.
At 1.000 gp apiece, plenty of character can afford more than 1 at level 6. A summoner can craft one for his eidolon at level 3 with a spellcraft check with a DC of 14 (for him haste is a level 2 spell) or at level 4 with a spellcraft check DC of 9, both automatic success for him unless he has dumped intelligence.
If you fell sorry for the melee fighter now, wait till the eidolon get this item. Pounce regardless of his form at level 4.Or till the magus get one. Well maybe it is the monk boosting item people wanted. Get in flurry of blow range at the start of the fight.
It even bypass the move or attack limit of the surprise round. You can use a swift action to move and then make your attack.
At 1.000 gp it cost like 1.3 potions of haste (one and a third).
And I was mistaken: it is a chest slot, so it can be replaced with ease.