Polymorph spells and size ability modifiers

[Tinalles]

I'm pretty sure this as been asked before, but my Googling has not turned up a definite answer. The questions are:

1) Do polymorph spells that specify size modifiers in the spell description override the general table in the polymorph school description?

2) If not, do the size modifications from the two sources stack?

For example, suppose I am changing shape from a human (medium) to a cat (tiny) using Beast Shape II.

If I am reading the size changes table in the polymorph section right, then going FROM medium TO tiny, you're supposed to get -4 STR, +2 DEX.

Beast Shape II then specifies that you get -2 STR, +4 DEX.

If the spell overrides the general polymorph description, then the total is just -2 STR, +4 DEX because the polymorph table never comes into play.

If the spell does NOT override the general polymorph description, then we need to know if the changes stack.

If they DON'T stack, then the total modifications are -4 STR, +4 DEX, taking the -4 STR from the table, and the +4 DEX from the spell.

If they DO stack, then the total modifications are -6 STR, +6 DEX.

So ... which is it?

[Count Duck]

You get what the spells say's you get. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Tinalles]

Okay, so in that case ... why does the table in the polymorph school description exist?

As far as I can tell, 100% of the Transmutation (polymorph) spells give size adjustments to ability scores in the spell description. Either directly, or by referring to other spells. Every last one.

So unless there's something I'm missing, that means that the general table in the school description will never, ever come into play under any circumstances whatsoever.

And I have just wasted four hours of my life trying to figure this out.

[Gauss]

Count Duck's explanation while correct is a bit simplistic.

The reason for the table is if you are not small or medium to begin with.

CRB p212 wrote:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

If you are not small or medium then first you must use the table you found to change your size to a small or medium creature. Anything under small becomes small. Anything over medium becomes medium. THEN the polymorph spell modifiers are applied. Btw the URL is incorrect, Here is the correct URL.

In summary: for small and medium creatures apply ONLY the spell description modifiers to ability scores and natural armor.

Note: you still apply your new size modifiers to Attack, AC, CMB, CMD, Stealth, Fly and any other size based modifiers that I have missed.

- Gauss

[Tinalles]

Ah! That clears things up. I was confused as to why the table only showed going TO small or medium, when 99% of PCs start that way anyhow.

I have fixed the broken link in my original post. It's annoying that Firefox sometimes silently omits the "http://" when copying URLs from the location bar. Glad that you caught it before my "edit" link expired.

And thanks for the answers. I still wish I hadn't spent four hours working this out, but at least it's clear now.

[Gauss]

No worries Tinalles. :)

Oh, and as for why? Because the CRB is for more than just players. It is also a GM resource. And, players 'pets' (familiars, animal companions, and eidolons) might be subject to polymorph spells. Some of those creatures have sizes other than small or medium.

- Gauss