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So here's the set up.
Wake of the Watcher, Undiomede House.
Party just took down the marsh giant, and the Oracle has his summoned Earth Elemental use tremorsense and locate any other moving beings in the house. It senses the Vicar and cultist in the next room, so the party rushes (still in initiative, at their request) around and through the outside door of the Cultist's room.
They have the baby inside, note.
Barbarian rushes through the door, Vicar has a readied Greater Command that she fails against, and gets ready to run.
Wizard, who can only see slightly into the room (he's by the kitchen, so he can only see a few squares in), declares he's about to throw a fireball in there.
A feeling of dread immediately fills me, because I know that there's more than cultists in the room.
Now, here's where I need to explain the out-of-game context; we (I) were rushed to get done and leave. I had promised my wife I'd be done and home half an hour ago, and one of the players was practically falling out of his chair with another clearly zoning in and out.
I would have ended sooner, but the action kept flowing so quickly we all got caught up in the moment.
I asked the Wizard more than once whether he wants to throw a fireball into a room that he hasn't even looked at, that he has no idea who or what is in there, and he declares yes.
I let him do it.
Fast-forward, they defeat the Cultists with general ease. Before they leave to rush into the next room (looking for more baddies while their buffs lasted), I let their characters notice something in the corner.
Here's where I really messed up- I put the baby in the top-right corner of the room, right where Wizard had dropped the Fireball, a place directly in his line of sight. Now, IRL, one probably wouldn't notice a small wrapped up baby on a bench from 50 feet awhile while aiming around a frightened barbarian in combat.
It would have been in the bottom-right corner where the cultists had grouped. So I retconned that.
Not the big point of all this, but it did help make things worse.
One of our players in particular did NOT take the situation well, to say the least. I held my ground and made the case that this is how it would have logically played out without direct DM or divine intervention, but the player was not exactly happy with my answers.
We had to call it quit after that, as half the group needed to sleep asap and I was overdue to get home.
I feel like I gave justice to basic reason (as well as the overarching theme which is HORROR), but most of the players (and myself) agree that I could have handled the narrative better.
I was honestly thrown off by the Wizard's tactic, and letting myself get caught up in the rush of the evening (both figuratively and literally), didn't take time to think about how I should approach this. Had I known that they'd react so drastically, I would have worked in multiple fail-safes to keep this situation from occurring.
So with that said, I would love the input from experienced players/devs. Did I make the wrong call letting this happen at all?
Should I ret-con it? I'm concerned that this is something that will be a permanent mark on our gaming group for the worse.
Basically I'm torn between whether I should stand by my decision and let the players deal with it, or whether my decisions and actions were bad enough to warrant a ret-con.
Any advice would be great, thanks.
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Emotions run very high right at the end of a gaming session when everyone is rushed. Now that you've all gone to sleep and had a day to digest, contact the wizard player (email/phonecall/whatever) and discuss the issue. There is a very good chance that he will feel very differently now than he did this weekend.
Tell him that you want to preserve the horror, but you also want to his decency. Ask him what he proposes. If he's being reasonable, go with it. If he's not being reasonable, well, you have an immature player problem, and you should propose that the basinet had toppled upside down, thus giving the baby total cover and thus immunity to the fireball. However, in order to preserve the horror, when they investigate the room, put a young lad (only you know how young you can go with this player) and have the lad be burned to death as well - a young convert to the cult that didn't know what he was getting into, or a big brother to the baby perhaps. Point is, maybe it's just "baby" that freaks him out.
I would start next session with reminding people to dissassociate with their characters. "Elric the Wizard" is not "Erik the computer programmer", and what one does and experiences is not the same as the other. Ask every player to describe how their character is feeling about the Undiomede House and how the creepiness is getting to them. Encourage specific 3rd-person description. It can help diffuse the tension.
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I guess I should clarify who is who. We have a Barbarian, Oracle, Witch, and Wizard.
The Wizard was completely unaware of the consequences of his actions, and took the situation fairly well.
The Witch who is really, really, REALLY didn't like the way things panned out, and the Oracle was not happy about it either. (These are the players' reactions, not the characters, obviously.)
But I do thank you for the input!
I don't see a reason why you should undo this. It's a.) a horror game ; b.) a good lesson on handling power with responsibility and c.) not a real-life baby.
Yeah, it's damn horrific... but given what your players are about to discover ( you know... decades on decades of sexual slavery and brain-washing with fishmen monsters on human women ), I think that it fits into the context of the situation. If your players cannot handle this situation, I fear how they will react to the next couple of revelations.
Wake of the Watcher has some heavy stuff in it, much heavier and way more explicit than any of the other modules in the AP.
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If it was my group I would let them deal with it. Generally they do not toss fireballs blindly into rooms (or grenades for that matter) unless they know what’s inside. Accidents happen all time.
Of course you know your group better that I ever could.
Ask yourself a few questions:
Is my steadfast ruling more important than the player’s state of mind and possible desire to keep playing that character?
How mature and responsible are my players: is this going to wreck the group or will they pick up the pieces and absorb the tragic story into their characters (and learn not to be so hasty with their scorched earth tactics)?
Normally, if this had happened in the middle of a session or at the start, I would agree with maguskn. It's not a real baby, and your players are all adults (I assume), so you could roll this as part of the horrific plot.
However it sounds like people were dog-tired, and things get rushed at the end of a game. The wizard was presumably not as tired as his player, and the rest of the players may also have performed differently if they weren't zoning out / calling their wives etc.
If it was me, I would just put all the cards on the table. I'd say "look guys, girls, this is what happened but I appreciate some of you were tired and it wasn't the best time to do that encounter. How do you want the story to continue? Do you want (a) the baby to be dead? or (b) the baby to have miraculously survived by hiding under a chair as the flames licked around it? Your call. Or you can abstain, and if you all do that I'm going with A".
OK, there are a few different things probably going on here.
The first is that one player was more reckless then they probably should have been with the fireballs. That is what happens when you have more intelligence then wisdom.
The second (and far more potentially serious) issue is a dead baby. While it is just a part of the story to some, other people just can't shrug that off, even if it is just a narrative device in a fantasy game. Dead babies are just really serious to some people.
If it is the first instance, just make the wizard pay for the reincarnation or raise dead. Death is just a minor set back in these games anyway. Look before you shoot is one of the most important rules of warfare, and even super brainy types need to remember that. Lesson learned. If you want to be a nice GM, cut the players a break on the cost, and maybe have the baby reincarnated with a hint of dragon or angel blood or something. Don't punish the player, since the rush to wrap up was probably a big factor.
If it is the second issue, ret-con it to save the baby, and just destroy a few scrolls or something. A dead baby is not going to make the game better for this person in any way.
I think it is a good lesson learned about throwing blind fireballs and not an inappropriate narrative development in this AP. In fact, with many groups of players it would be a pretty incredible opportunity for roleplaying and character development, as the wizard deals with any guilt he/she has and the other characters gauge how to react to the situation and the wizard. It is pretty common for innocents to get killed in operations against evil baddies, and it is a fascinating opportunity for PCs to be confronted with that and reflect on it and decide how it may change their tactics. Perhaps blind fireballs are not the best approach, or perhaps the PCs conclude that effectively defeating the cultists was way more important and justified risking the harm to innocents. This is the apex of what gaming can be -- confronting players with interesting moral dilemmas in a safe imaginary environment.
If your PCs are not up that, or if that isn't the type of game you want, then I think Evil Paul has the right approach.
Also, although the end-of-the-night thing probably factored into what happened, that has an element of realism in it too, since rush decisions are part of those combat situations. So I don't think that alone is a reason for a do-over (although I'm not saying I couldn't be persuaded to do a do-over in a different situation).
To be clear, I personally wouldn't be cool with a group of PCs running around committing atrocities just because they can. But this is something that happened naturally in the course of the game and my preference would be to let it play out.
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To help build on the situation: The Witch is a very emotional person. Not in the sense that she's a drama queen or cries all the time, but very far on the Feeling end of Thinking/Feeling (Myers-Briggs).
One of the things that she feels very strongly about is babies- she won't be in the same room of anyone who even begins to say a dead-baby joke. It's just her thing.
So when all this happened, she reacted very strongly.
Part of my concern with the narrative is I wish I had A. given them a chance to remember/realize the baby could be in the room, or B. make the reveal at a different time.
I think I mostly agree with what people have been saying here- it was a logical situation, and it is horror after all.
I plan to sit down with her and talk and see if she's willing to continue with this, or if she absolutely refuses to play without some sort of retcon.
That seems appropriate. Ideally she would be able to deal with it, but sometimes people have idiosyncrasies that just need to be tolerated and the larger campaign is more important. It might be different if she were raising issues all the time, but it doesn't sound like that at all.
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Here is a retcon trick - if your inclined to do so. Continue the fight from the point the fireball is about to be hurled - wizard remembers the baby at the last moment (or hears the baby crying) and
A)Screws up his spell completely or
B)Pulls back on the spell at the last minute (doing only half damage or no damage on a save)
and then continue the fight at a disadvantage to the PCs.
Wizard gets less xp for being a thoughtless moron and then tell them to be more careful in the future since you will not do this again. Then move on.
Again, I wouldn't do this but its an "out" suggestion (out of many possible outs).
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Maybe it's understandable that she would be upset at the situation, but assuming her PC holds the same views as her, this is time to channel that anger against the villains of the campaign.
It's also not a GM mistake. Innocent civilians exist. They get mixed up in events. Maybe that's a good reason not to indiscriminately fling area damage spells around?
In their defence, most GMs don't put bystanders on the map; it's confusing, it's too much to track, it's too many figures to bring...
As a result, most players are used to encounters that are way too clean and antiseptic. They get complacent. When there's never any noncombatants on the field, there's never any reason NOT to fling a fireball.
If the players are used, in other games, or under other GMs, to having encounters where collateral damage is never a possibility, then they may be taken by surprise by these events, and that surprise is why emotions run higher than they would in an out-of-game conversation re a similar hypothetical situation?
They may assume you've deliberately set them up, by not properly describing the room, or they think that you decided to teach them a lesson by retroactively adding a dead innocent of your own into the scene.
If they find out that the child was part of the scenario as written, and that you gave the player a chance to reconsider (which you didn't have to do), it means the result is much less likely to be due to a dick DM move.
The PCs need to learn from this, in-character. They should sit down and discuss what they thought they were getting into, and how they see their responsibilities. Decide among themselves how much care should be taken in future before coming out blasting.
Trouble is, being more careful is dangerous. How long do you spend checking for hostages, prisoners, bystanders? A move action? A standard action? A round? Two rounds? Do you only storm in if you've been able to remotely scour the site? Do they need to spend more party resources on divinations? Should the blasters invest in the Selective Spell feat?
Maybe this gives everyone a greater appreciation for the difficulties faced by real life police, soldiers and hostage negotiators.
If the players do decide to play much more cautiously in the future, it will affect the balance of encounters. Those that would be expected to be easy may become average, average may be difficult, and the difficult encounters may have to be rethought, if the PCs are going to forfeit some of the element of surprise.
I don't know WotW well enough (yet) but I'd partly base it on whether the character should have known that a baby was in there. However, given the witch player's focus on such things, why didn't she speak up at the time? Seems like she's all upset now, but when she ought to have been paying attention, she wasn't.
It's a brutal lesson, but one that perhaps they should learn - actions have consequences. And yeah, I'm sure they can bring the baby back; at their levels the gp cost of a raise dead shouldn't even really be that painful.
(BTW, ninja'ed by Snorter, and way better :)
And, once again, I say: What is going to happen with this group once they discover the real story behind Illmarch?
Maybe I am not not seeing the big difference in degrees of horribleness between one dead baby and decades upon decades of sexually deviant corporeal and psychological slavery over hundreds of innocent women ( both of which are horrific in the extreme ), but I'd foresee a very bad reaction to that, too, if that player is so emotional.
My party is on their way to Caromarc, so I've got no experience with WotW, but is it possible to retcon the age of the baby? Can it be a 5 or 10 or 14 year old?
Killing the innocent is bad but except for the witch it seems the rest of the party has taken it as they should and learned their lesson. The Witch player is taking it way out of context and way too personally for something that has nothing to do with her. It wasn't there just to piss her off, it wasn't retconned in after the blind fireball to be a cheap lesson in paying attention to situations, and it certainly wasn't there to provoke her to leave the party.
It has no affect on her as a person or her real life. If she can't see that, then you can't do anything short of pander to her inability to cope with fiction/non-fiction boundaries. I'm sure there's some horrible personal history there and it is hard for her, etc etc, but it is also not mature and frankly silly.
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What IS important is people to talk about them and be reasonable.
The kid has to be an infant, per the story. Making her older would be require serious reworking of the plot.
Many have brought up the issue of Illmarsh and its dark secret. The PCs have already pieced that together as I've said. The Witch did not find comfort in this; I believe a large part of it was that the Party is directly responsible for the situation, so she (however technically) had a hand in it. And that's what was the main cause for distress.
I do agree that there needs to be a separation of self and PC, and this can be a very sobering lesson about keeping the entire world in mind, not just what's on the game map.
Continued thanks for input, guys. It really is helping me sort this out.
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Never forget that the game is supposed to be fun.
It's much more important to respect the feelings of your players than to try to preserve some supposed integrity of the written module, or to defend the tone of the adventure. Just because it's "horror" doesn't mean that you can just make your players feel bad however you'd like. Everybody has limits on what they'll feel is acceptable, and you have to respect that.
If your player is truly upset by what's happened, your job as her friend is to make it better. And your job as a GM is to make sure that the game stays fun.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with retconning the baby away if it's damaging your player's enjoyment.
But ask your players how they'd like to have this handled. Do they want the baby to simply not have been there? Do they want to take responsibility and resurrect the baby?
I *do* think that this can be a good learning experience about not throwing fireballs around willy-nilly -- I also think it can be a good learning experience for you as a GM, to learn what you can and can't put in your game in order to keep your players having fun.
Next time, you'd better decide whether you're going to write the baby out of the room *before* the fireball gets thrown. Never forget that you can *always* adjust the adventure to fit your game. Just because something's written in the book doesn't mean that's what has to happen to your players.
As a final solution, redo the encounter as best you can. If possible, reset to the turn where the wizard fireballs the room and have him do something else. The particulars of which bad guys come out of what doors can be changed. How many, what kinds, etc can by mixed up to make the fight interesting and novel.
Only trouble here is if, say, the Barbarian dies because the Witch player didn't like the content. I could see some unhappiness there.
You could also say "alright, fine, here's how the fight really went down", give a detailed narration of a modified combat event, and move on. Tell the players that this was it. They, the players, will have learned their lesson about blind destruction and rushing in. There will be no more of this retconning, so they better be more careful in the future.
Consequences are good, destroying a party is bad (even if it is because one player can't keep in mind that it is just a game).
I would hate to have to do the re-do or re-write, since I do think it is an awesome roleplaying opportunity that a mature adult should be able to deal with, but if you do need to do a re-write, it seems like an easy approach would be to just invent a closet sized room off the room where the cultist are and put the baby in there, safe from the fireball. I don't think I'd re-run the whole combat, for risk of another PC suffering some detriment. It should be (kindly, not resentfully) explicit that the re-write is straight up meta-gaming to address the witch player's discomfort. None of the other players should have to suffer because she can't deal with what happened.
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I would hate to have to do the re-do or re-write, since I do think it is an awesome roleplaying opportunity that a mature adult should be able to deal with, but if you do need to do a re-write, it seems like an easy approach would be to just invent a closet sized room off the room where the cultist are and put the baby in there, safe from the fireball. I don't think I'd re-run the whole combat, for risk of another PC suffering some detriment. It should be (kindly, not resentfully) explicit that the re-write is straight up meta-gaming to address the witch player's discomfort. None of the other players should have to suffer because she can't deal with what happened.
Voomer, I understand what's bothering you, but it's important to be careful not to impose your own ideas of what constitutes maturity on someone else's players. The GM -- in this case Ulmaxes -- is the only one who can judge what's right for those particular players.
I certainly agree that Ulmaxes should do what is right for his campaign overall, including a do-over or re-write if he thinks it is appropriate. I'm just stating my personal belief that an adult player in this AP should be able to handle what happened. Of course, a player that sincerely can't handle it should be accommodated, and I would do so if necessary, but in my mind an adult player in an adult AP like Carrion Crown should be able to handle ugly developments, barring some relevant personal tragedy, which would totally change things in my mind and make any discomfort understandable. I'd accommodate a player if necessary, and I would try to make them feel ok about it, but I still think what happened in Ulmaxes campaign is well within the range of what a player should expect to have to deal with. But that's just my opinion.
Interesting quandary. I presented the scenario to my daughter and to my husband and my daughter was all for reset/baby survives by 'sheer dumb luck' while my husband said he'd first have stopped the game when he realized how tired everyone was. Then he'd also have been a bit nore proactive in reminding them of the baby, even going to a 'waaaa, waa, waaaa' as the wizard prepared to cast, then let the chips fall if he cast anyway.
Ultimately, it's between you and your entire group.
Me, personally?
As GM, tried harder to remind them of the baby, much like my hubby's methods.
As player? Well, personal background would kick in.
Given that, instead of asking for a reset (though i'd have appreciated one) most of my characters would have kicked the wizard's @$$ for that stunt. Since I despise interparty conflict, wiz would have probably surviced the first rage-induced assault, but my character would never have spoken to him directly again and his new name would have been baby-killer.
"Tell baby-killer over there it's his watch."
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For other DMs, to avoid this situation in your game, you should have had the baby crying. Babies cry a lot when surrounded by people they love; there's an excellent chance that they'll be crying when in a strange environment surrounded by strangers that clearly dislike him/her.
For the OP, I'd talk with the offended player (who may have had a miscarriage or other life trauma relating to babies, FYI), and ask if she wants spoilers for the rest of the AP on this issue. Then talk with the party at the table.
When you retcon, which seems inevitable, I'd state that the bad guys get what's amounting to a super-version of a Villain Point. The gods intervened on behalf of the heroes; the evil gods will get their chance to intervene too to balance the scales.
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I haven't played (and will likely never play) this AP- but is there some other appropriate room the baby should be shuffled off to instead?
Maybe have them find an empty (charred) bundle of swaddling clothes instead- that they just mistook at first glance to be the infant?
Again- haven't seen the AP but it in theory could be a way around it.
-S
I'm the Oracle in this campaign, and my wife is the Witch. Both she and I, Ulmaxes and I, and Ulmaxes and her have talked about it. We're also going to talk about it before our next session starts. I wanted to give my opinion on what has happened, and what could be done in the future about situations like this.
As as player, I feel that we were not given sufficient information about this particular situation. We were aware that the child had been taken, but I don't recall learning that the child was being taken here. There was also no information that the child was in the room; there was no description on the room at all. It would have made the situation different if the baby had been crying, or even if the cultists looked like they were trying to silence the child. I believe that if the wizard had known the situation, he would not have acted that way.
From a role-playing perspective, however, it fits. The wizard was the only character who could see into the room (the barbarian was fleeing, and myself and the witch were still around the corner). He has been playing his character as getting more reckless and impulsive, even taking Opposition Research to gain access to Necromancy spells, something he once abhorred. It was a sobering moment to his character, especially when my oracle and his still active Spiritual Ally turned on him, preparing to kill him for the errant spell. I'm prepared to continue with our actions, because this is a real possibility.
Ultimately, I feel that the issue lies in the fact that our mindset was not prepared for this. Despite this being a horror game, we have not been playing it as such. Players and GM have been acting more pleasantly, with jokes and such flying around the table. I believe it was the abrupt change in tone that shocked us. The mood was not right for such a serious thing. I'm glad Ulmaxes is taking it seriously, and I know it will not disrupt our group's friendship.
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To me this is one of those lessons a lot of GM's learn. When you and or the players all start getting tired. Call it a night. Don't press on, people make mistakes when they are tired. They don't ask questions they normally would ask, forget things they should know etc. I know the temptation is to keep pushing on when the action and tension is at a peek regardless how tired you guys are. But in my experience it is not worth it, cause things like this crop up.
I would have given the wizard a chance to make a perception chance to notice the baby in the basket if he was able to even remotely see it. I imagine if you the OP had been less tired you likely might have as well.
I would talk to the group about it before the next game session. See what the majority of people want. You can handle it one of 3 ways.
1) Retcon, go back and start play at the point just before you go in the room.
2) Allow the baby to have lived someway somehow.
3) Just play it out as it happened and deal with the issues. This might be a great RP device as it might make the wizard react in horror to what he has done and turn away from his more reckless ways. Or make the other PC's feel they need to save their friends soul before it is to late or both.
There is no right or wrong answer to this. To me this is a group issue that the group should decided. I know how me and my group would handle it, but where not you guys. Different people have different buttons that is hard to deal with. So I get how/why the witch player is having a hard time with it.
Anyways chalk this up to a learning experience and figure things out with the group that will make everyone the most happy to deal with it.
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Okie dokie, everyone. Tomorrow/today we play.
I plan to have a sit-down before we sit down to play, and have an honest discussion about the Adventure Path, their feelings about it in general, and what we're going to do about the previous session's drama.
MetalPaladin and the Wizard of the party (who has seen this thread already :P) will kindly not look at the Spoiler below.
DOUBLE LOYALTY TE...ha, just kidding.
Anyways, I have decided to retcon that the baby-basket was knocked over by a cultist getting blasted in the chest by the fireball (the leader did nat 1 on the save in the first place), giving the child (at least temporary) total cover and avoiding the blast.
As the PC's adrenaline cools off, they all immediately notice the basket overturned on the floor behind a cultist. At first, they all see what they originally saw in the last session, and as the horror of the moment fills their mind, they have to make Will saves against losing Sanity (I'm not using the exact same system provided in the books, but similar enough.) The DCs will be higher for the Good characters.
In my game, I'm running the Sanity loss as not just something that's passively happening to the PCs, but Shub-Niggurath himself getting a brief shot at their very minds. Whenever they encounter beings or situations that are not of this world (Shamblers, MiGo, everything the book gives Optional Sanity Loss for in the first place), Shobby gets a shot at them, thus the Will Saves/Sanity.
This will be the first time he's tried, and the only time he'll get a shot at them through a situation of "mortal" nature. After this, only the aforementioned types of encounters can trigger this window.
This system was already planned out before last session's events, but I decided to tie it in.
Those who make their save quickly see the illusion fade, and finally start hearing and seeing the crying baby. Those who fail take the Sanity damage (2d4 at the moment), and don't see through the illusion. They get another save when the other PCs point out the illusion, with a +5. The illusion is dispelled regardless of the result, but they still take the damage as Shubby frays more strands of their thinky-bits.
This is decently rough Sanity damage potential, and will still serve to unerve the group but relieve the burden of actually fully causing the deed from the Witch's player.
We've had multiple talks by now, and it really is just the fact that they actually did it themselves that bothers her. She does indeed have a very close and personal reason for disliking dead baby situations that I will not go in to, so I am going to respect that over trying to defend a hasty decision made during a tabletop game.
Playing out the illusion will still retain the initial impact of the Wizard's brash decision, unnerve them (something I've had trouble really doing up to this point), and retain the Witch's friendship.
Once again, thank you all so much for your input. I am incredibly impressed and honored by the overall maturity and insight that flooded into this thread. I know I can call on you guys again in case anything else came up.
Keep being awesome!
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Well, what's done is done. Everyone is dead.
LOL, jk.
Things went fairly well, all in all. Retcon went smoothly. Everyone seems to be back on the same page and generally happy with things.
Witch strapped the baby on her back and went on her way. Oracle used his positive energy to heal any bumps or scratches, and I ruled that Positive Energy is a soothing sensation that helps calm and soothe babies.
Then they walked into the room with the Tick Swarm.
General panic ensued, culminating in the swarm flooding the hallway where the Witch and Wizard were hiding. It was almost dead by the time it got to them, so I ruled they were able to keep them off the baby at the price of HP and Con damage to themselves.
There was a moment later where the Witch was flying around, baby and fox in tow, through the house fighting the Vizier. We all took a moment to stop and picture what this would look like (she has Insanity as a patron, so bonus points to flavor). Some much-needed laughter was had at the thought.
They've handled the rest of the house proper now, and are about to step through the Phase Door.
It looks like my campaign is set to keep going. Thank you again, guys.
Hopefully the wizard got the good sense to be less reckless in the future.
Absolutely the best things that have happened to me in role playing, either as a player or DM, have been related to moral questions like this one. I know I'm joining this ultra-late but I totally would have approved of making the wizard deal with what he did.
I've had entire in-game arguments and personalities develop based on events like this. The other characters should have considered kicking the wizard out of the party, turning him into the constable, etc. The wizard should have been dealing with ramifications from his deity, if appropriate.
Love these situations. Hope my party does the same thing when we get there.