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I think that the fundamental problem is that they can be combatted only in very circumscribed ways.
No ranged positive energy damage (which is not outside the realm of possibility at low levels)? No knowledge check to know that you can set the haunt at peace? Sorry, you have to just run away and then send the paladin in first and hope that the haunt takes a while to reset.
I agree that the problems are magnified greatly by DMs who run them improperly ad just turn them into murder machines, but there are also fundamental problems with the way they work. It is far spookier if the hairs on everyone's necks go up before one character notices the knife and is the only one who can prevent their party member from slitting their own throat. As opposed to everyone suddenly being in initiative for a single round while some people get to try to run away from a big nuke.
The way that I run haunts is that the "spooky background" effect is obvious to everyone when they get close to stepping on the haunt. The perception check then lets the character act before it and also know the epicenter of the haunt. I'm pretty sure that this is the intent of the system, since it is more fair and makes more sense than the aforementioned things that I see most people do.
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No ranged positive energy damage (which is not outside the realm of possibility at low levels)? No knowledge check to know that you can set the haunt at peace? Sorry, you have to just run away and then send the paladin in first and hope that the haunt takes a while to reset.
Having the 'right stuff for the job' on a huant is not much different than having a trapfinder for traps. It's just a different kind of thing to prepare for. Most Haunts at low level only have about 6 hp. That's not hard to push out, but you do need to have someone able to.
The way that I run haunts is that the "spooky background" effect is obvious to everyone when they get close to stepping on the haunt. The perception check then lets the character act before it and also know the epicenter of the haunt. I'm pretty sure that this is the intent of the system, since it is more fair and makes more sense than the aforementioned things that I see most people do.
It may be RAI, but RAW is pretty specific. Of course, I've let people damage them with Holy Water and that technically shouldn't work either.
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The way that I run haunts is that the "spooky background" effect is obvious to everyone when they get close to stepping on the haunt. The perception check then lets the character act before it and also know the epicenter of the haunt. I'm pretty sure that this is the intent of the system, since it is more fair and makes more sense than the aforementioned things that I see most people do.It may be RAI, but RAW is pretty specific. Of course, I've let people damage them with Holy Water and that technically shouldn't work either.
The thing that makes this unworkable is that there is a high chance that the character will have no chance at all to interact with something that is supposed to be especially interactive for the characters. Ot's like an unskippable cutscene.
It is why the Haunting of Hinojai (the most extreme example) is really tedious to DM because the haunts bring out the most bring, rote and pedantic behaviors in play.
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I pulled up a copy of Hinojai. Most of the haunts seem fairly weak, but a few are pretty rough. Granted it is a 5-9 mod so I'd expect them to be.
I think the description of them as a 'cut scene' is pretty apt. It looks like they're there to tell the story of how things became as they are. I don't think that's a bad thing. But I haven't run or played that Scenario so I can't comment on their effectiveness.
Basically, people have gotten used to building 'trap buster' characters. They aren't used to needing 'haunt buster' positive energy dealing characters. I think it's more an issue of new rules not yet mainstream and less that they simply don't work. It's just another thing to add to the list of things to be prepared for, like swarms or invisibility or deeper darkness.
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** spoiler omitted **Save that that haunt can't kill you. It can only take you to 1 hit point. It's simply a CL10 heal spell.
It could be written better though.
The fundamental difference between haunts and traps is that you can find traps by perception without setting them off. Haunts require extremely specialized methods (remember a paladin's detect is targeted and won't do the job) to find it without face-checking.
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** spoiler omitted **Save that that haunt can't kill you. It can only take you to 1 hit point. It's simply a CL10 heal spell.
It could be written better though.
** spoiler omitted **
The fundamental difference between haunts and traps is that you can find traps by perception without setting them off. Haunts require extremely specialized methods (remember a paladin's detect is targeted and won't do the job) to find it without face-checking.
EDIT:Added link to spoiler.
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** spoiler omitted **
Anyone standing anywhere in the area when the haunt
manifests takes 100 points of positive energy damage, but
is healed any adverse effects currently active as per the heal
spell.
The whole thing is 'as per the heal spell' which can't kill you. They should have simply said it as you suggest, but they chose to try to be more specific and instead became more muddled.
The fundamental difference between haunts and traps is that you can find traps by perception without setting them off. Haunts require extremely specialized methods (remember a paladin's detect is targeted and won't do the job) to find it without face-checking.
To detect early, yes. To detect at all, no. It does require that the person who can take them out have high Perception and decent Initiative though.
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I think I may build Character #7 to be a Haunt killer. Just to give it a try.good luck with the dice rolls... ;)
what are you going to name him?
(I would suggest some variation of Peter Venkman (Bill Murray), Raymond Stantz (Dan Aykroyd), or Egon Spengler (Harold Ramis))
Slimer?
Was thinking Halfling :P
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Just because you've heard about rust monsters from your fellow pathfinders doesn't mean your PC can recognize one on sight without making the knowledge check. Likewise, just because you got a creepy feeling and saw something spooky doesn't mean you know it's a haunt and not an illusion spell, a ghost, or something else.
A Haunt isn't a creature. It functions like a trap. You can't compare it to a creature.
Are you going to require a Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Knowledge (Engineering) check to recognize a pit trap?
By adding in the Knowledge (Religion) check, you add in an extra layer of complexity that the Haunt mechanic wasn't designed around. Making something tough already, VERY tough. It makes some sense to require it the first time or two you run into one, but after that, it's needless penalizing.
AS adventurers you've trained to recognize traps, just because haunts are new to us doesn't mean that Golarion's adventurer's haven't trained to recognize them.
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The real point is this.
If you take RAW and add a bunch more difficulty to it. You really can't come say that RAW doesn't work. You haven't played RAW. You've played Bob's modification.
If you simply let Haunts be haunts, they will work a heck of a lot better for you.
It seems like people are taking this system and trying to force feed it into what they believe it should be instead of what it is. The next time you run a haunt, relax, and just let it do its thing. Don't try to force it into some belief of what it should be, let it be itself.
You'll find the whole system works better. I did.
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I ran this one again at the upper tier. Almost the same result as my first go around.
I took the language aspect in stride this time and decided the cultists would speak common. This makes no sense to me still, but not having to mime basic actions did move the plot along. Both versions were fun, but I understand the need to hand wave the language barrier.
Now, to the action!
Party:
Human Monk 3 (some crazy-mule archetype that allows you to roll a sense motive check and add that to your armor class for one opponent)
Human Monk 3
Dwarf Cleric 5
Human(?) Druid 5
Samurai level 4 pregen (very handy!)
Surprisingly, this group approached the temple in almost the same order as the other group did. First was the meditation room, followed by dinner with the cultists, and then the library. Not much differed as far as plot went.
They encountered the haunt and one of the monks made his save.
I was able to play with Gastidem a bit more this time around, and boy was that fun. No one antagonized him so there was a lot of banter. They eventually saw through his BS and convinced him to leave town.
This group managed to see Dakang and the crazy-mule Monk made his Kn: Religion check to identify the symbol. Instead of quietly putting this info away to alert the group later, he stood and accused Dakang of being a demon. I thought, "OK, no matter what happens in the crypt someone is getting a visit from some dretches..." Sadly, this did not happen.
The crypt is vicious killer. After setting off the trap, the group entered and proceeded to have it handed to them. I admit I rolled somewhere around 4 or 5 critical hits. Things were going OK for the group until I crit the Samurai, possessor of a magic slashing weapon, and killed him. Then I killed the cleric with another crit and a regular hit (3d10 + 30). Then the non-crazy monk went down, not dead just unconscious. The sense motive armor addition was what kept this from being another TPK. I had an inability to hit AC 32(!).
Right before I asked the remaining players, "Have you considered running?" the still living monk announced he was doing just that. The druid wild-shaped in a leopard or some other cat, the monk picked up the other unconscious monk and off they ran.
From my first after action report, "They didn't even get to the bad guy. Oh, well... next time."
Final score:
2 dead, 1 unconscious, one abandoned scenario.
This just gets better with age. Good combats, a good supporting cast, and lots of replay potential. I will run this whenever anyone asks me. And I haven't even got to the end yet! Two tables and no fight with Dakang. I am a little frightened of what might happen if a group finally does reach him. *shudder*
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Interesting. I've run this twice and I've never done the fight in the crypt. Both of the tables I've run has spent their time investigating the weird stuff with the cult and trying to unmask Dakang. My favorite was the one table who figure out how the statue worked and then used it to prove to the cultists that they had all achieved enlightenment.
But there's enough to do without trying to go in the crypt, and by the time it is night, the players have generally figured out that something was up and formulated a plan then.
Director of Brand Strategy
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As long as parties that don't investigate the crypt don't get credit for completing their primary mission (and are deducted a prestige point as a result), then it's cool not to use that encounter area. That would really screw over PCs whose faction mission is also completed there.
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Both times I've run it I've never had someone have their faction mission thre.
The first time we were playing on Tier 1-2. They spent the first day doing everything but the crypt and at night decided that their best way of getting access to the crypt was to oust Dakang from power by proving him a phoney. When they did, they triggered a fight with him which then proceeded to take up the remaining time in the slot. At Tier 1-2 with a bunch of lvl 2 characters, that last fight is not hard as long as people remembered to bring blunt weapons (which they did). They just spent 2 hours on an epic battle with the big obvious boss only to find out that they have to fight a wimpy fight afterwards while one player has to leave and the store is trying to kick us out. I'm a fan of trying to run the scenarios as close as possible to written, however this scenario has a lot of content. If I had a bunch of players who were interested, I could easily make this a six hour or longer scenario just by running everything. I already skipped the optional encounter to save on time. There is a lot to focus on in the scenario, and depending on what the PCs want to do, the scenario can go in very different directions. This is a good thing. As long as progress keeps happening and the fight with Dakang looks like it's going to finish on time, then as a GM you should be good. It's not that I walk into the mod with a mindset of purposely trying to skip the crypt, but both times the player's focus was elsewhere and I had players who either had to leave or were falling asleep at the table. That's a message to GMs to wrap things up quickly.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Please do not grant prestige to PCs who do not complete the success conditions of a scenario. I understand that sometimes sessions run long, but that's built into the Fame curve. As we move into Season 4, it will become even more important that prestige granted and reported is accurate, as it will have direct impacts on the metaplot of the campaign.
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Please do not grant prestige to PCs who do not complete the success conditions of a scenario. I understand that sometimes sessions run long, but that's built into the Fame curve. As we move into Season 4, it will become even more important that prestige granted and reported is accurate, as it will have direct impacts on the metaplot of the campaign.
Cool, in the future I will run the scenario like that - but I will also no longer run the scenario in a 4-hour time slot. The scenario has an awesome vibe to it, but the scenario is clearly written with the idea that Aram Zey's mission is important, but while you're doing it you realize that something is wrong and go fix it. The mod is clearly structured in that the PCs are intended to investigate as to what's wrong and go fix it, with Aram Zey's mission mainly being the motivation for going there and clearly secondary in importance in the feel of the scenario. In every other room/encounter, the PCs find evidence of Dakang's treachery and it all pieces together, but this encounter serves little purpose to the overall scenario. In terms of how this encounter contributes to the scenario, all it tells you is that something is going on. A reasonable guess might be that you are actually dealing with an evil cleric instead of a good cleric, but you can get the idea that something is wrong religiously through another of other means, and the missing fingers serve as a way of signaling to players "Hey! Something's off here!" even if they fail at skill checks.
I'm all for undead encounters, and the juju zombie fighters are some of the sweetest undead I've seen in a while, but the undead encounter doesn't contribute the scenario. In future similar scenarios, I would make sure that any scenarios that are required for the mission prestige contribute to the scenario rather than feel tacked on.
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I'm all for undead encounters, and the juju zombie fighters are some of the sweetest undead I've seen in a while, but the undead encounter doesn't contribute the scenario. In future similar scenarios, I would make sure that any scenarios that are required for the mission prestige contribute to the scenario rather than feel tacked on.One of the pathfinder's missions is to get rubbings of the sarcophagi back in the crypt area. So there would've been no way to accomplish that without encountering the undead stored back there.
That's the problem that I'm talking about. The undead are there for the plot of the pathfinder mission, not the actual story of the scenario. Everything else in the scenario dealing with the pathfinder mission is secondary, but this sticks out like a sore thumb.
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Sorry, I thought you were referring to the whole crypt area. It says in the scenario that instead of eating everyone, Dakang turns some of them into undead. They mention he "takes care" of outside threats so he may utilize them for that or alternatively they're backup in case of rebellion.
Compared to pretty much every scenario ever this one seems to have a lot of internal cohesion.
Yeah, I know that. When you step back from the scenario and look at what each encounter brings to it, the undead encounter brings the least to the table. The connection feels somewhat weak, as the undead in the crypt really serve a blatant purpose of something going wrong, but by the time the party has access to the crypt, they'll either have come into conflict with Dakang already or they'll know something's wrong already from the fingers. The scenario overflows its allotted time slot, eliminating an element that serves the same purpose in the scenario seems like it would be a good thing for developing the scenario. However, this is really Monday morning quarterbacking. The scenario is out already and we have to run it they way it is written. I'm just providing feedback and also warning people that from my experience, this is not a four hour mod.
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So has anyone ever seen a group complete this mod without any deaths? This seems like one of the deadlier new scenarios recently. Given other recent adventures, I was also surprised to see an adventure in the tapestry that didn't have us facing Aspis agents.
We played it yesterday at a tier 4-5 with a party of a level 5 inquisitor, level 4 alchemist, level 4 fighter, and my level 3 controller sorcerer (non-damaging).
The role playing at the beginning was fun. We realized something was up with Dakang even before the going into the crypt area. We attacked him and got our heads handed to us, though we managed to escape. We headed all the way back through the tapestry to Absalom to regroup and came back the next day with cold iron weapons and oils of align weapon.
We were better prepared, and so was Dakang, though the GM decided not to make it really bad on us by having him release the crypt zombies to make us fight them at the same time as him. The second time, it was a tough fight, but we managed to beat him. Our biggest issues were that our fighter kept failing saves against fear, and our alchemist's bombs are all things that demons are either resistant or immune to.
Then we tried to complete the rest of our four part Pathfinder mission from Aram Zey. We just assumed we'd be facing undead in the crypt right from the initial mission briefing, so we were on guard going in. The word "crypt" just screams "undead" to us, as it should for any Pathfinder.
But those juju zombie things are just too tough. They killed the fighter and alchemist, knocked the inquisitor down to negative HP, though he stabilized, and my sorcerer barely escaped, running all the way back to the tapestry in Absalom... again. And unlike the fight with Dakang, this one just happened so quickly that we barely had time to figure out how to deal with it. The GM took a little pity on us and decided that the zombies were happy to be free of their crypt, so they left the monastery and didn't go back to coupe de grace the inquisitor, which kept it down to two deaths instead of three.
My sorcerer returned to recover the bodies, heal the inquisitor, and finish the mission, but my character now has post-traumatic stress disorder. Don't say the words "demon" or "zombie" around him, or he'll start twitching uncontrollably.
So our level appropriate team of four got our butts kicked outright in both of the adventure's only two fights. And we didn't even find the room with the haunt in it, which sounds like it could have been just as deadly.
I think this is a case of Paizo trying to make the adventures a little tougher, because of complaints of the cake walks in earlier seasons, and the end result is a scenario that might be fine for a six player table, but is just overpowered for four. I know that's what the changes in season 4 will be designed to handle, but in the mean time, this one is just killing players left and right. I think this one ranks up there with Dalsine Affair on the list of scenarios that should come with a warning label.
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4 out of 5 died when I played it. The survivor ran with 1 or 2 hp left. I think dakang might not even have been wounded at that point, as he was healing himself and still hadn't engaged in melee yet with the main damage dealer in the party.
I did the math, and the encounter can be run as written so that without combat healing in a level 1-2 party every party member is likely to be down before dakang closes to melee in round 9 or so.
Some DMs skip or lessen the curse effects to make the end battle less damaging, as rolling 3-4 times and take the worse effectively eliminates that melee or ranged combatant from the fight without any actions from Dakang or even a save. For example, in our group both our ranged fighters, who were the highest levels in the party, couldn't hit him as they were rolling 3 times and taking the worst. I have seen other DMs who have had dakang rush into combat fairly early, which gives the party a chance to counter him. Other DMs lower the stated DC for diplomacy with the aasimar to give the characters a better chance of reinforcements, as a 30 DC, although realistic, isn't really viable for low level parties. Another DM I know made sure to have Dakang heal himself with the inflict masses as much as possible to try to keep more party members up.
If you have a positive channeling in the the final battle it's a lot better. The other option is to have something to get dakang off the wall quicker.