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So I'm currently running two different groups through Kingmaker, fairly different styles, but both a lot of fun. One is currently in Ch 4 and the other in Ch 5. I've started looking back and thinking about how I'd do things differently if I were to ever run Kingmaker again. Some thoughts (and feel free to add your own):
0) I'd fudge the map and make Restov farther away. Oleg's is only a couple of days away by the highway. I'd want it to be a week or two. I might even double the size of each hex, making them 24 miles across (about 500 sq miles.). I'd also sprinkle a couple of existing settlements, thorps really, around the Stolen Lands.
1) I think starting off, I wouldn't make the PCs the center of attention. They'd be hirelings for a more notable petty-noble who was setting off to conquer the Stolen Lands. I'd ramp up the expedition-member roles some of us have played around with, like cartographer, naturalist, medic, etc. More focus on just how hard exploring really is, effects of terrain and weather, more random encounters, etc. Then this leader guy would turn out to be a looser and might hide from combat or might just die early in the story, during or soon after the first couple of bandit encounters. Might be cool to make him die by the Stag Lord's hand. Give the PC's a moment of ... uh, what do we do now? Then they have to nut up and finish the job without the boss. Restov might be in a bind and might not want to recognize the PCs claims to the territory but not have any choice. facts on the ground.
2) Before the PCs leave Restov, I'd have a party or something where they'd meet Meager Varn, Drelev and the Iron Wraiths. They just knew too little about their neighbors until it was action time. I'd want them to know what's going on and have relationships (good or bad) with these folks from the beginning. It's would make later events more meaningful.
3) Pretty soon after establishing their kingdom, say the end of Ch 2 or after exploring the west side of the mountain in Ch 3, maybe level 6 or 7, I might have the players create 2nd characters. It just seems odd to me that the duke/duchess is running around doing odd jobs like gathering eels and roc eggs. Not very dignified. Also, my players obviously want to be at the center of all the action, but would a real ruler really be out there fighting and exploring like that? It also means that the base-line encounters have to scale up with the PCs, so by Ch 3 and 4, just walking around the Stolen Lands is potentially pretty epic deadly from the perspective of an NPC commoner or warrior. If players rolled up a second character, 1st or 2nd level, the second string could work for the original PCs, the rulers. The new guys could continue exploring (at lower levels of danger, making the Stolen Lands a bit more even) and the ruler characters could engage in political stuff and come out of "retirement" to deal with the really hard stuff.
4) Find ways to elongate the timeline, especially in the beginning. They've risen in levels in 2 or 3 years. I'd like to see them age a bit more before they become rules of a huge kingdom.
5) Work in more hints about the final BBG earlier. I tacked on the Fellnight Queen module between Ch 2 and 3, and I think that kept the fey theme going a bit more. Actually both of my groups used the Fellnight Queen's scrying mirror to survey the surrounding lands and discovered the surprise in Ch 3! They had to hightail it over there.
6) I'd like to lower the magic level quite a bit. Moving Restov helps with that a little (limiting access to purchasable magic items), as would limiting or eliminating Craft Magic Stuff feats. I'd be hesitant to completely ban them, but maybe require unique components they'd have to side-trek to acquire. Jack up the cost of special materials like adamantite and mithril. Replace the Magic Item Economy in kingdom building with some other means of generating regular BP. Consider limiting travel magic like teleport, or making it a ritual that takes hours to prepare or something. Be a lot stricter on scrolls they can find for purchase.
7) Really consider a level cap like E6 or E8. My players are pretty experienced, and it just gets silly around 11th or 12th level what they can do.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying Kingmaker and it'd be a great intro AP for players new to the game. I'd love to hear other folks' thoughts on my thoughts, or maybe some changes you'd make if you were to start over. Thanks!
My group has gotten through Chapter 1, but became bogged down with the kingdom building rules and we eventually moved on to a different campaign. The Kingdom rules are interesting but they are really far removed from the typical table top gaming that we know and love. We'll be restarting the game again at chapter 2 and I'm planning on making a much more streamlined kingdom building system, something like resource points from significant assets like those mines.
I've considered several of your ideas myself, the lower level pc's are especially compelling. I'd like to involve Brevoy a lot more in my game so a second set of characters that can leave the fledgling nation for an extended period of time would be a welcome thing.
I also love your idea of making the hexes larger. Makes everything a bit more epic, and I'll also be stealing the idea for a smattering of thorps throughout the Stolen lands. Makes for a more solid foundation of a kingdom.
Your idea for making the pc's hirelings to some petty lord to start the game is also very interesting. Far too late for my players but a good twist none the less.
I must mirror the statement a little on the kingdom building rules. While we have pushed through almost 4 books now, the kingdom building rules have been very messy to deal with.
Roleplaying as the rulers and making up fun events that only happens when you are the person of ultimate authority in an area is a very unique playstyle. But the endless grinding of making new buildings and rolling economy all the time gets boring very fast, as the rules are not that deep, and are quickly broken.
At this point, I am just going to stop using them, and handwave the kingdoms growth with my players. Not entirely sure how I will handle the army rules of the 5th book as it is tied pretty closely to the kingdom rules.
In my first Kingmaker campaign, all the players independently decided to take the Leadership feat at 7th level, and of course they all wanted their cohorts on the ruling council. Shortly thereafter, as the PCs were out adventuring and discussing how they would have to cut their dragon hunt short to get back in time for a kingdom turn, they came to the decision that they (the PCs) should resign from the council and that their cohorts should take over the most important jobs (Ruler, Grand Diplomat, Treasurer, Spymaster). That way, the players were still running the Barony, but the heroes got to spend their time being, well, heroes.
Splitting things up that way worked so well I insisted on it for my second campaign, granting all the players Leadership as a bonus feat after founding their Barony.
My players are far too paranoid to allow 1st and 2nd level followers on their council. That's like asking someone to Charm Monster your kingdom out from under you.
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0) I'd fudge the map and make Restov farther away. Oleg's is only a couple of days away by the highway. I'd want it to be a week or two.
I did this with my second group - it significantly added to the tension, especially in the early books. Another plus to doing so is that if it comes to war with Restov, their major city isn't right on the border!
1) I think starting off, I wouldn't make the PCs the center of attention. They'd be hirelings for a more notable petty-noble who was setting off to conquer the Stolen Lands.
I also did this with my second group, and it provided a solid base to explain where the PCs got supplies and rewards, what the other expeditions might look like (though they never met, see below), and also increases the conflict with Restov when things go south.
2) Before the PCs leave Restov, I'd have a party or something where they'd meet Meager Varn, Drelev and the Iron Wraiths. They just knew too little about their neighbors until it was action time. I'd want them to know what's going on and have relationships (good or bad) with these folks from the beginning. It's would make later events more meaningful.
I wish I had done that, but it does add a bit to the mystery if they don't know the exact competition. But the advantages outweigh that - having them meet means the PCs want to enter Varnhold/Fort Drelev without being prompted, and like you said makes certain scenes more dramatic.
3) Pretty soon after establishing their kingdom, say the end of Ch 2 or after exploring the west side of the mountain in Ch 3, maybe level 6 or 7, I might have the players create 2nd characters. It just seems odd to me that the duke/duchess is running around doing odd jobs like gathering eels and roc eggs. Not very dignified. Also, my players obviously want to be at the center of all the action, but would a real ruler really be out there fighting and exploring like that?
I kind of like the idea of a warrior-king, it's worked well in my game. However, I do agree that the nature of the campaign makes PC death rather traumatic, so eventually I encouraged every player to take Leadership to have an easy substitute and backup. I also played up the NPCs that the party befriended, so they wouldn't feel stupid turning over the kingdom to them. If a player is not available, an NPC takes their place to keep things moving.
4) Find ways to elongate the timeline, especially in the beginning. They've risen in levels in 2 or 3 years. I'd like to see them age a bit more before they become rules of a huge kingdom.
This is something I never got around to doing. I suppose the easiest way would be to do kingdom building bi-annually or annually. But that might discourage some players.
5) Work in more hints about the final BBG earlier. I tacked on the Fellnight Queen module between Ch 2 and 3, and I think that kept the fey theme going a bit more. Actually both of my groups used the Fellnight Queen's scrying mirror to survey the surrounding lands and discovered the surprise in Ch 3! They had to hightail it over there.
Ugh. I agree. Worst example of a tacked-on ending in any AP series. My first group is enjoying the encounters, but even they were a bit confused when things started happening (and they dealt with it swiftly and spared the kingdom). I can only imagine the frustration a group would feel if the blooms started wiping out their kingdom and there is no way to see it coming.
6) I'd like to lower the magic level quite a bit. Moving Restov helps with that a little (limiting access to purchasable magic items), as would limiting or eliminating Craft Magic Stuff feats. I'd be hesitant to completely ban them, but maybe require unique components they'd have to side-trek to acquire. Jack up the cost of special materials like adamantite and mithril. Replace the Magic Item Economy in kingdom building with some other means of generating regular BP. Consider limiting travel magic like teleport, or making it a ritual that takes hours to prepare or something. Be a lot stricter on scrolls they can find for purchase.
I actually like that by adventure 3 or 4 the PCs find exploration trivial. It changes the focus of the game, and makes them feel like they have achieved something meaningful. Both groups noticed the grind of exploration at about the time teleport became available. Plus, many of the encounters are unforgiving, lowering the magic has the potential for a TPK and a ruined campaign.
As for other changes I would do or have done?
1) Run the Rushlight tournament every year (I'm starting this in my second game, but its already been over 2 years).
2) Increase the number of events involving Pitax.
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1) Run the Rushlight tournament every year (I'm starting this in my second game, but its already been over 2 years).
Yes! It's too late by the time it falls in the AP. No one trusts Pitax by that point. Earlier in the story, when the PCs are just becoming known would be a better time.
This one also points to why I'd want a group of non-ruler PCs - why are a king and his ministers going to be entering in a contest. That picture of Valeros getting knives thrown at him is cute, but makes me cringe. Isn't he like the High General or something? Get some dignity, man. Send an underling to win the contest for you!
2) Increase the number of events involving Pitax.
I'd say the number of non-conflict events. My PCs haven't trusted Pitax from the start, largely because Pitax has been hassling them from the start. So whenever anything happens, it's "Let's go get Pitax!" No surprise at the end, and it messes up the Pitax-making-friendly-overtures stuff near the end. Irovetti is smart enough to keep his friends close and his enemies closer.
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I did this with my second group - it significantly added to the tension, especially in the early books. Another plus to doing so is that if it comes to war with Restov, their major city isn't right on the border!
0) I'd fudge the map and make Restov farther away. Oleg's is only a couple of days away by the highway. I'd want it to be a week or two.War with Restov? Restov is the border city that wants to break away from Brevoy and therefore starts the whole line of events in this AP. I don't see how the story (or history) would work without Restov at the border.
I'm not even sure you need to change the distance... simply make the 'road' a glorified path that's difficult for wagons to follow (requiring more than a day per hex). Until the players claim the hexes and build a real road, supplies take weeks to arrive.
Sorry, miswrote Restov, what I meant was Brevoy. However, the AP hints that as the campaign progresses Brevoy starts cracking down on Restov's rogue actions. It's not far fetched that political turmoil would force Restov into conflict on behalf of Brevoy.
Moving the city further away from the border doesn't change the fact that Restov was expanding in order to solidify border disputes, resources, and alliances (all things that Brevoy did not appreciate).
Changing the road means two things: 1) Unless you change the rules for travel, there's no reason a road (even a poor one) would take more than a day to travel 12 miles on. 2) It would also require removing or changing all of Restov's settlements on the road.
It was much easier to just say Restov is 10 hexes NE of its actual location and be done with it.
The magic item economy is too much too fast from my experience with it. Were I to run Kingmaker again, I'd definitely mine quite a few of the ideas presented in this subforum and implement them.
The KM kingdom rules and *especially* the army building rules do not hold up well at all past certain points. They do the job, no question. I've heard of Warmaster (I think is the name) plugging into KM with little or no fuss.
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The magic item economy is too much too fast from my experience with it. Were I to run Kingmaker again, I'd definitely mine quite a few of the ideas presented in this subforum and implement them.
The KM kingdom rules and *especially* the army building rules do not hold up well at all past certain points. They do the job, no question. I've heard of Warmaster (I think is the name) plugging into KM with little or no fuss.
I'm going to try it with the magic item economy before I just get rid of it.
In the Guide to the River Kingdoms the map on the inside cover shows pretty much just that. Moving Mivon further south won't really work to well - and it is an ideal "southern front" threat to develop for any given campaig. Pitax to the west of me, Mivon to the south of me, Brevoy to the north of me ,.. possibly centaurs to the east if you make them mad enough ...
I like the idea of starting the PCs as underlings, as it were.
The obvious choice seems to me to be to have Kesten Garess be the one in charge. He sends the PCs down ahead of time, so they're forced to deal with the initial bandit attack at Oleg's.
Then when he comes down, he just sends them out, since he can't be bothered/is too depressed. Eventually, the PCs learn of some further political trouble with Brevoy, putting them in charge/setting them up to be the rulers of the new kingdom.