Countering all the CMB specialists

[J-Bone]

Ive just recently put together a group for running the Jade Regent AP and at least half the party have built their characters around tripping, grappling and pinning the bad guys. Some of the examples are a Druid with the giant frog companion (grapple, pull) and a Maneuver Master Half-Giant monk that can take most BBEGs out of a fight within a round. All are properly built and played by smart and cool people. So my advice question, what are some of the ways I can put together new and interesting challenges to them while not making their builds useless?

[Jiggy]

So... you have a group of players who do something other than max out their DPR, therefore providing dynamic and interesting combats... and you want advice on how to change that?

;)

Seriously though, throw an Iron Cobra (or variant) in there now and then. No tripping, DR/-, but low damage so it won't crush them. Just don't use too many, or your sessions will really drag on and on.

[james maissen]

J-Bone wrote:

So my advice question, what are some of the ways I can put together new and interesting challenges to them while not making their builds useless?

Learn the maneuvers fully. All the ins and outs. If something is grey in the rules, talk with your players beforehand about it and make sure that you're on the same page.

When prepping to run an NPC consider what the NPC will know beforehand of the PCs if anything. If he knows what they can do (say from watching them) is there anything he can do to avail himself of this knowledge? Can he buy a potion of flying for example to avoid the trips?

Rather than thinking as a board game, think in terms of all the NPCs you are going to represent. Don't metagame, but rather add more to the immersion.

You're looking to run a pre-done module, so run it as it is. But when reading and preparing it see what, if anything, the NPCs therein might do in reaction to the PCs.

-James

[J-Bone]

Yeah Im definitely looking into using things such as fly, levitate and spider climb as a why to give an occasional counter to their abilities. However what of those big bad melee bad guys? Jade Regent has plenty of samurai types and big nasty Oni to deal with. Are there any good feat, magic item, or other gimmicks I can use to make their CMDs a bit more challenging? There is always the GM fiat to raise them a few points but I'd prefer to do it within the realm of RAW.

[Mort the Cleverly Named]

What BBEGs have the players managed to take out in a single round with this tactics? Looking through the bosses of Jade Regent, I'm seeing a lot of the normal stuff that makes combat maneuvers iffy: flight, larger sizes, groups of minions. If this is just in the first adventure, I'd say that the problem will solve itself as time goes on. Maneuvers are better at low levels when your enemies are medium terrestrial humanoids. If you are deeper in the AP, it would be interesting to hear how they dealt with the giant/flying/magical challenges, as much of the standard advice is based around using more of those sorts of things.

[Umbranus]

If you want to make your opponents tougher vs maneuvers just change one of the opponents feats out for some improved maneuver feat to give him +2 vs that maneuver.

Or have them wear barbed vests now and then to do damage when grappled.
Perhaps for some really nasty BBEG have his barbs on the vest be poisoned.

Not always and not everything but now and then some small buff.

[blackbloodtroll]

In some combats, these builds will shine. Other combats, they will struggle. You really do not need to go out of your way to make them struggle. Just be aware of the rules around combat maneuvers, and let them have some fun.

[Dabbler]

J-Bone wrote:

Yeah Im definitely looking into using things such as fly, levitate and spider climb as a why to give an occasional counter to their abilities. However what of those big bad melee bad guys? Jade Regent has plenty of samurai types and big nasty Oni to deal with. Are there any good feat, magic item, or other gimmicks I can use to make their CMDs a bit more challenging? There is always the GM fiat to raise them a few points but I'd prefer to do it within the realm of RAW.

Defensive Combat Training for those without full BAB will work wonders here, the Free Hand Fighter archetype has some tasty bonuses to CMD and CMB. Remember ANY bonus to your Touch AC is a bonus to CMD, so a defending weapon will work wonders too. Lastly, any Maneuver feat gives you a bonus to CMD as well as CMB.

[RuyanVe]

Greetings, fellow travellers.

Since most (all?) oni can fly, there should be less of an issue with the BBEGs. There might be more issues with the mooks.
I just want to add the idea of ranged combat. Set up ambushes where the opponents are waiting for them up in the trees. In general make use of terrain.

Then again, you should be careful not to screw your group at every possible encounter.

Ruyan.