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Multiclassing Questions


Advice


Currently I've been playing a Draconic Halfling Sorcerer, however so far in the campaign, things are getting nasty, and I'm trying to come up with another character in the case that my current one dies.

This said, I've been drawn in by the love of Spellslinger, but all the same I do like the playstyle of a sorcerer thus far.

Researching a bit more in regards the multiclassing the two, I was thinking along the lines of a Human Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer to start as, then multiclassing into Spellslinger.

Now, some questions that I have in regards to multiclassing in such a way:

#1. I was wondering if it was feasible to have the Wildblooded Sage Sorcerer Archtype from Ultimate Magic while also having the Spellslinger Wizard Archtype from Ultimate Combat. The reason I am unsure about this is the fact that the Arcane Bloodline gives Arcane Bond, but in order to have the Wildblooded Sage Sorcerer Archtype, one must forfeit this. In addition, the Spellslinger has to forfeit Arcane Bond in order to have Arcane Gun.

#2. In accordance with Spellslinger rulings, a wizard has to sacrifice the usage of their cantrips. For the Sorcerer, since they also have cantrips. This said, I wanted to verify that in the case that I do multiclass into a Spellslinger whether or not I would, indeed, have to sacrifice the cantrips although both the sorcerer and the wizard can use them.

#3. Kind of a stupid question on my part, but when multiclassing, do you gain the skill proficiency's of both classes? If so, are there any backdraws other than thinning out your skill ranks further?

#4. When casting spells, since wizards base many of their rolls and modifiers based on the Int modifier, and Sorcerer's commonly roll based on Cha modifier, do you roll the highest of the two modifiers for your spell, or the modifier based upon your favored class, or some other method?

#5. Since Wizards have to prepare their spells ahead of time, and Sorcerers are more "cast spells on the spot", if multiclassing which would you do? Is it based upon what your favored class was, which class is your higher level, or is it up to your DM, or up to you as to which style of play you do when preparing your spells?

#6. I haven't researched too much on the Magus yet, but I have seen a lot of builds including them when people are attempting to multiclass the sorcerer and wizard. How essential is the Magus when doing such a multiclass? Any pro's or con's between simply focusing on multiclassing the two vs. multiclassing the two and then proceeding to go into a Magus?


I'll try to answer some of the questions, but first:

If you have this many questions about multi-classing, it is probably a good idea NOT to do it. I don't mean it in a nasty way, just that you might be biting off more than you're ready to chew.

That said:

1. You can have any archetypes you want (provided you follow the rules for how archetypes work) with whatever classes you have. So if you have levels in both wizard and sorcerer, it's possible to have a Spellslinger/Wildblooded character. In this instance, you'd forfeit your wizard arcane bond to the Spellslinger archetype, but you'd gain an arcane bond from the Sage bloodline. You'd have an arcane bond for the Sage bloodline, as well as your guns from Spellslinger. However, your sorcerer arcane bond, I believe, functions independently of the wizard stuff....so you wouldn't be able to use the arcane bond granted from Sage bloodline to cast a wizard spell spontaneously.

2. The spells earned from different classes are completely separate. You lose your wizard cantrips. You do not lose your sorcerer ones.

3. Yes, you gain all of the proficiencies when you take a level in a class; skill, weapon, and armor.

4. The spells are separate. When you cast a sorcerer spell, it's based on the primary casting stat for your sorcerer. When you cast a wizard spell, it's based on the primary casting stat for your wizard.

5. The spells are separate. You must prepare the wizard spells, and can cast the sorcerer spells spontaneously.

6. I have no idea what you really mean with this one. A magus is not essential to multiclassing in any way.

I'm going to be honest: The ideas you're proposing are going to lead to a (most likely) awful PC from a power standpoint. Levels in wizard do not progress your Sorcerer casting, and levels in Sorcerer do not progress your Wizard casting. Magus levels don't progress anything but Magus casting. From the sounds of it, you'll end up with a character who has a lot of low level spells off the same basic spell list, without ever getting any higher level spells (where you want to be as you level as a caster).

Lemme ask a question: What exactly are you trying to build? What is the goal you're aiming for? If we understand that, we might be able to help you accomplish it without swerving off into the realm of multiclassing sorcerer wizard and magus.


Most of your questions are answered simply: features of different classes are separate.

#1 Sage Bloodline of Wildblooded Archetype don't get arcane bond. Spellslinger don't get arcane bond. No conflict here.

#2 Sorcerer cantrips are separate from wizard's. If you'd multiclass regular Wizard and Sorcerer you'd get two separate sets of cantrips each goverened by their own caster level and key casting ability score. WIth spellslinger you don't get wizard's set of cantrips but because of sorcerer's one it less problem for you.

#3 You treat skills of all classes you belong to as class skills. Until you spend ranks into that skills it changes little. Both Sorcerer and Wizard have 2+Int skill ranks per level.

#4 and #5 Again, wizard spells and sorcerer spells are separate. You have to keep track of your wizard spells and sorcerer spells separately, despite both classes using the same spell list. The ability used to determine concentration check and saving throw DC (and in rare cases additional effects, like CMB of telekinesis or one of hand spells) depends upon which class gave you that particular spell.

Multiclassing Wizard and Sorcerer gives lots of versatility but is rather weak optimization-wise: loss of higher spell levels hurts at higher levels. Adding Magus to that, while possible, would diffuse spellcasting ability even further making it very crappy caster and poor combatat fulfilling role of neither in terms of sheer efficiency.

EDIT: Damn sylvan ninja-mages! Teleporting in my parking spot mere 51 seconds before me!


It's fine to multiclass with Sage and Spellslinger, however I don't think it's wise to do so. Apart from specific 1 level dips (like a wizard dipping into a cross-blooded sorcerer or a sorcerer dipping to admixture wizard) taking multiple levels of both sorcerer and wizard will result in a character that isn't very good.

Sylvanite wrote:


1. You can have any archetypes you want (provided you follow the rules for how archetypes work) with whatever classes you have. So if you have levels in both wizard and sorcerer, it's possible to have a Spellslinger/Wildblooded character. In this instance, you'd forfeit your wizard arcane bond to the Spellslinger archetype, but you'd gain an arcane bond from the Sage bloodline. You'd have an arcane bond for the Sage bloodline, as well as your guns from Spellslinger. However, your sorcerer arcane bond, I believe, functions independently of the wizard stuff....so you wouldn't be able to use the arcane bond granted from Sage bloodline to cast a wizard spell spontaneously.

A Sage sorcerer doesn't get an arcane bond.


I'm not sure, but I think you may have a missunderstanding about the spells for a multiclass sorc/wiz.
The spell casting is totally separate and most of the abilities will not affect each other.
If you have an 8th level character that has 4 levels of wizard and 4 levels of sorcerer. The spells are seperate.
He can prepared 1st and 2nd level spells that he memorizes from his spell book the same as any other 4th level wizard.
He casts spontaneous 1st and 2nd level spells from his learned list the same as any other 4th level sorcerer.

It gives you many spells, but not powerful spells. So few people will recommend trying this.

Some specific builds will have a sorcerer take 1 level of wizard or have a wizard take 1 level of sorcerer. This is to get some specific 1st level ability that can apply to all arcane spells. But you will almost never see anyone recommending many levels of both classes.


Thanks so far on answering my questions!

Knowing that the multiclassing spells and abilities are completely seperate entities, and as a result there is less blending, helps clear up A LOT of the confusion I had with multiclassing.

@Sylvanite,
Well, although I didn't have much of an understanding of multiclassing just yet, you have to start learning somewhere!

Naturally, I wanted to know these things before actually creating the character, so this input has been incredibly helpful. As stated earlier, I like the playstyle of the sorcerer, but have also been craving to attempt to mix the said playstyle with that of a Wizard. Seeing some of the options from Arcane Bloodline that bleed into Wizard related features such as the sage's change from Cha mod's to Int mod's made me wonder how multiclassing works more.

In essence, I want to make a character that is able to use guns, mostly for a flavor prospective as well as in the case of running into an anti-magic area, but also be able to cast the spells quickly and adaptively in accordance to the situation. This includes metamagics, which with the Arcane Bloodline, would make it to where I can cast a metamagic from sorcerer bloodline without extending the duration of the casting. Considering that Spellslingers lose the availability of cantrips, and from what you have said, in how sorcerer's would continue to keep their cantrips, dabbing into it for fairly abusable 0 level spells to replace the need of certain items (such as torches since you'd have dancing lights) seems like a fine idea.

Sadly, from what I have read though, since the spells are treated completely separate, would I be correct to assume that I could not use a level 4 spell from the sorcerer levels to use the "dancing" effect on an arcane gun that has been bonded thanks to the Spellslinger's Mage Bullets, and thus would need to have level 4 spells from the Spellslinger to have such an effect?


Learning is a good thing. As is looking things up (my bad! I didn't look up the Sage bloodline before responding, I just assumed that it got the arcane bond since that was an assumption in the OP)!

As per RAW, you might be able to feed Sorcerer spells through your magic guns. I don't see that it specifies Wizard spells. However, I'd check with your DM on this one before putting in the effort to fully build it out.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I would advised you this...

Choose what you want more...the gun effectiveness of the spellslinger,or the cantrips of the sorcerer. Keep in mind that you can always use a trait to give yourself the use of one cantrip/day.

If you decide the sorcerer route, take the exotic weapon proficiency fire arms and amateur gunsmith feats to satisfy your shooting itch.


I've did some more reading on this. Arcane Gun seems like it should work with sorcerer spells. Magic Bullets I don't think will as it requires a sacrifice of a spell. Essentially your first level wizard spells become swift actions to enhance your gun with a +1 bonus for a few minutes a day.

Part of the text from Arcane Gun.

Quote:

A spellslinger can cast any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun.

Now you could just go straight Spellslinger, but the loss of cantrips and FOUR! opposition schools is pretty harsh.

Here are the spells that will work with Arcane Gun (prehaps not a complete listing)

1st: burning hands, color spray, ray of enfeeblement, ray of sickening
2nd: acid arrow, fire breath, gust of wind, scorching ray
3rd: pellet blast, lightning bolt, ray of exhaustion
4th: dragon’s breath, river of wind, shout, enervation, fear
5th: acidic spray, cone of cold, waves of fatigue
6th: cold ice strike, contagious flame, disintegrate
7th: prismatic spray, waves of exhaustion
8th: polar ray, greater shout
9th: clashing rocks, meteor swarm, energy drain


Thank you for the input thus far Hawktitan.

After all this information, I'm probably going to go primarily sorcerer, but dip 1 level into Spellslinger if/when I do end up making this character to gain the availability of using guns, being able to channel magic through the guns for the bonus's from Arcane Gun, and probably use 'Seeking' with Magic Bullets since that is a +1.

With just a 1 level dip, however, it is questionable whether I should even consider going the Sage route over the normal route for a Arcane Bloodline since Bloodline Arcana would further empower my metamagic somewhat, and also make the one Spellslinger level more relevant to my familiar's level.


Tyrantherus wrote:

Thank you for the input thus far Hawktitan.

After all this information, I'm probably going to go primarily sorcerer, but dip 1 level into Spellslinger if/when I do end up making this character to gain the availability of using guns, being able to channel magic through the guns for the bonus's from Arcane Gun, and probably use 'Seeking' with Magic Bullets since that is a +1.

With just a 1 level dip, however, it is questionable whether I should even consider going the Sage route over the normal route for a Arcane Bloodline since Bloodline Arcana would further empower my metamagic somewhat, and also make the one Spellslinger level more relevant to my familiar's level.

If you are using Seeking to actually fire bullets that is fine, but I don't think it will think it will apply to spells. If you are firing your spells your best bet is to increase the enchancement bonous for the extra hit and spell DC increase (so never get a +5 gun, keep it at +4 and save some gold).

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