Better as in... more macabre?
I don't know, have the gnomes sheathe their weapons and use their bare hands to choke the drow children to death? Force the children to kill each other a la Hunger Games? What are you going for here?
So what can make this better?
Ummm ... a player revolt?
Are your players aware of/agree with your campaign's basic assumptions about evil races?
In my game the evil races are born evil and are irredeemable.
You must never have heard of Drizzt.
Make some of the kids actually dangerous... telepaths, high chr, etc.
either make the kids dangerous, perhaps as a swarm creature that bites scratches and claws.
Or even funnier, make the paladin loose all his abilities as he kills children...
No seriously, your campaign assumptions circumvent the "is killing baby goblins evil" from a rules point, but I would have issues with that as a player.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'm also with the "Player Revolt" crowd here.
Other than that, i wind up my music box that plays "what about the LE innkeeper who rips off his guests, the NE watchmen taking bribes from the thieves guild and the CE harlot who only tried her best to live up to the succubus cult's ideals she joined to make life bearable", and let myself be accused of moral relativism. ;)
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So what can make this better?Ummm ... a player revolt?
Are your players aware of/agree with your campaign's basic assumptions about evil races?
I'm also with the "Player Revolt" crowd here.
Another vote for revolted players revolting. Never really saw the appeal of baby-murder snuff adventures.
Other than that, i wind up my music box that plays "what about the LE innkeeper who rips off his guests, the NE watchmen taking bribes from the thieves guild and the CE harlot who only tried her best to live up to the succubus cult's ideals she joined to make life bearable", and let myself be accused of moral relativism. ;)
in b4 OH NOES POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE WILD! D: D: D:
Hell, I once got accused of moral nihilism for thinking all genocide is evil! True story!
I read the Dark Elf Trilogy. I thought Dritzz was stupid.In my game the evil races are born evil and are irredeemable.You must never have heard of Drizzt.
AHAHAHAHAHA - I love this. I didn't think Drizzt was stupid, but I love your attitude. I have no problem with a race of sociopaths -- a race who's people are born without empathy. If you have the rare one (Drizzt), hopefully he can find a path to happiness among those he's more compatible. Ultimately, you kill drow first and ask questions later, or you probably won't get to ask any questions ever again.
Female elf gives birth to a black baby. What do?
Female elf gives birth to a black baby. What do?
I am not sure what you are going for here. I cannot read incomplete sentences.
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So what can make this better?Ummm ... a player revolt?
Are your players aware of/agree with your campaign's basic assumptions about evil races?
Another vote for revolted players revolting. Never really saw the appeal of baby-murder snuff adventures.I'm also with the "Player Revolt" crowd here.
And another from me. Or at least a vote for them stopping it in-character.
You can always raise them up and teach them good moral values, at least you can in any game I want to be a part of.
I actually really like the Drow as badguys. I draw on those books a lot for inspiration. I just wish their was a little more to why Dritzz was what he was. Was another deity screwing with Lolth? Was he reincarnated? Are the drow just like humans but have an evil culture? Who knows! He's just the one good one.AHAHAHAHAHA - I love this. I didn't think Drizzt was stupid, but I love your attitude. I have no problem with a race of sociopaths -- a race who's people are born without empathy. If you have the rare one (Drizzt), hopefully he can find a path to happiness among those he's more compatible. Ultimately, you kill drow first and ask questions later, or you probably won't get to ask any questions ever again.I read the Dark Elf Trilogy. I thought Dritzz was stupid.In my game the evil races are born evil and are irredeemable.You must never have heard of Drizzt.
Well, it's like humans being mostly empathic, with a few sociopaths running around. Drow are mostly sociopathic, with a few empaths running around. The difference is, in a sociopathic society, empaths don't fare well (they get slaughtered). Drizzt and Zak were just special because they were incredible fighters and had value. Drizzt was even more special because he survived, not just the Drow society, but the Underdark alone, before emerging on the face of the world.
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Not my game. They were born into the world to create a trial for the surface races who Lolth hates.
I'm a big believer in nurture over nature as an explanation for evil, and I prefer to stick with that in my fantasy games, so I dislike it when that's not so. Especially for anything not overtly supernatural. So anything with babies, just for example.
So are your drow actually made from elves, or were they made in mockery of elves?
If made from elves, can the drow be forcefully turned back into normal elves at all?
If they were to be forced to be good, would it just not work? Would it cause them to perish (explode, burn, evaporate, etc)? Would it cause them great pain and suffering to do acts that propel holy forces? Would they change appearance?
And what would some noble high elves do if they gave birth to a drow baby?
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That's not a bad way of describing it. I'll probably use your description if I ever run Forgotten Realms again.Well, it's like humans being mostly empathic, with a few sociopaths running around. Drow are mostly sociopathic, with a few empaths running around. The difference is, in a sociopathic society, empaths don't fare well (they get slaughtered). Drizzt and Zak were just special because they were incredible fighters and had value. Drizzt was even more special because he survived, not just the Drow society, but the Underdark alone, before emerging on the face of the world.
Wait, are you saying they're just sociopathic, not inherently evil? Because that's a big difference. Borderline, or even full-on, sociopaths can interact with society and even form meaningful emotional connections with people if brought up in an appropriate environment. They have free will, and the ability to exercise it to be good people if they choose to.
Something like this is my usual explanation for mostly Evil races, actually, but it in no way necessitates evil behavior or justifies the genocide of that race.
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I just said that a god made the race. How much more supernatural do you want?
All species were made by the Gods in most fantasy. And, depending on one's religious beliefs, possibly in the real world.
I'm talking about things like being sprung fully formed from defiled earth (as mentioned previously). That kind of overt supernatural nature.
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No. In my game world that I am running, right now, they are irredeemable evil. If I was running Forgotten Realms I would use the traditional FR ideas about them, which is what Jupistar was talking about.
Ah, gotcha. :)
Not something I'd do without more overt supernatural touches, but I can certainly see where you're coming from.
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So what can make this better?
The Paladin telling the children, "Let me raise your spirits with purifying light and warmth," as he sets the nursery ablaze.
Have the children skinning animals alive and sowing them together as experiments. Also let the children have a ring where they can slaves and/or prisoners to fight to the death.
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So what can make this better?
As a human being, I dislike the idea of irredeemable evil and I dislike the idea of the killing of any sentient being; especially their children.
As a GM I can understand that simplifying all the moral ambiguity and ethical rationalizations to the 'it's evil, so kill it' mindset is sometimes necessary, (especially for hack and slash players that just want something to be put in front of their swords). I think you are wanting to insert some of the complexity of morality and ethics into the game... Kudos for that. As a GM, I think this done carefully can be a good thing too.
With that being said...
Really want to make it 'better?' Make some of the babies half drow. Have their lineages wizard mark'd or tattooed on their backs. Have those lineages include nobles of the player characters hometown cities or better yet the PC's relatives. Heck, why not make it so that some of the babies are the PC's from when they went wenching early on in the campaign.
Be ready for that detect evil to go off on them. Do only some of the half drow babies radiate evil or none of them?
Just imagine the looks on their faces as they figure out what they are going to do... And then the excitement as the players debate with one another about what they are going to do.
P.S. PC's becoming suicidal, players may leave the game, and/or the lynching of the GM may occur. <insert long disclaimer with lots of legal jargon here>.
That's not a bad way of describing it. I'll probably use your description if I ever run Forgotten Realms again.Well, it's like humans being mostly empathic, with a few sociopaths running around. Drow are mostly sociopathic, with a few empaths running around. The difference is, in a sociopathic society, empaths don't fare well (they get slaughtered). Drizzt and Zak were just special because they were incredible fighters and had value. Drizzt was even more special because he survived, not just the Drow society, but the Underdark alone, before emerging on the face of the world.
Wait, are you saying they're just sociopathic, not inherently evil? Because that's a big difference. Borderline, or even full-on, sociopaths can interact with society and even form meaningful emotional connections with people if brought up in an appropriate environment. They have free will, and the ability to exercise it to be good people if they choose to.
Something like this is my usual explanation for mostly Evil races, actually, but it in no way necessitates evil behavior or justifies the genocide of that race.
I pulled a quote from the first article I came across regarding ASP:
"If you have a friend or family member who is a diagnosed sociopath, it means he suffers from antisocial personality disorder (ASP). It's important to understand the range and severity of symptoms that come with this diagnosis, including pathological lying, lack of remorse, aggressiveness, violent tendencies, inflated self-worth, manipulativeness, impulsivity and recklessness. While some of these symptoms may seem manageable, someone with sociopathic behavior is usually unable to conform to social norms and has no respect for the rights or personal space of others. Many ASP sufferers are arrested or incarcerated frequently due to an unexplainable gravitation toward criminal behavior. Unfortunately, ASP is one of the most difficult personality disorders to treat, so it's important to realize that many sociopaths can't be rehabilitated."
I would say that the Drow society is born with ASP to an extreme degree (aggravated, perhaps, by Llolths interventions). But for them it's not a disorder, it's their nature - and so they're very militant about enforcing discipline and structure. And I see nothing wrong with some races being truly and irredeemably evil. See, unlike a lot of the posts I've been reading tonight, I like my world populated with all grades of morality. From the morally repugnant (goblins), to the morally creepy (drow), to the morally questionable, to the good and noble. I like all my alignments and I like my races to be pegged throughout the spectrum.
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I pulled a quote from the first article I came across regarding ASP:
"If you have a friend or family member who is a diagnosed sociopath, it means he suffers from antisocial personality disorder (ASP). It's important to understand the range and severity of symptoms that come with this diagnosis, including pathological lying, lack of remorse, aggressiveness, violent tendencies, inflated self-worth, manipulativeness, impulsivity and recklessness. While some of these symptoms may seem manageable, someone with sociopathic behavior is usually unable to conform to social norms and has no respect for the rights or personal space of others. Many ASP sufferers are arrested or incarcerated frequently due to an unexplainable gravitation toward criminal behavior. Unfortunately, ASP is one of the most difficult personality disorders to treat, so it's important to realize that many sociopaths can't be rehabilitated."
*puts Psychology Major hat on* Antisocial Personality Disorder and 'being a sociopath' are different things. The latter isn't even an acceptable clinical definition any more (for various good reasons), but the key thing you need to understand is that, to suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder, you have to be unable to function normally in society. That's part of the diagnostic criteria, and someone who was otherwise a perfect model of the disorder, but had iron self control and functioned perfectly in society would by definition not have the disorder. So any cautionary tales about people with the disorder are not showing you the whole picture of people who might be described as sociopathic.
I would say that the Drow society is born with ASP to an extreme degree (aggravated, perhaps, by Llolths interventions). But for them it's not a disorder, it's their nature - and so they're very militant about enforcing discipline and structure. And I see nothing wrong with some races being truly and irredeemably evil. See, unlike a lot of the posts I've been reading tonight, I like my world populated with all grades of morality. From the morally repugnant (goblins), to the morally creepy (drow), to the morally questionable, to the good and noble. I like all my alignments and I like my races to be pegged throughout the spectrum.
I also like a wide moral spectrum, I just don't think it should be racially based (at least outside of actual Outsiders personifying the Alignments in question), or at least not primarily or inherently so.
Take "predatory" or "feral" aspects, and apply them to a sentient creature.
For example, say the kids have been starved so they fall upon their own wounded to eat even as the massacre goes on...
*puts Psychology Major hat on* Antisocial Personality Disorder and 'being a sociopath' are different things. The latter isn't even an acceptable clinical definition any more (for various good reasons), but the key thing you need to understand is that, to suffer from Antisocial Personality Disorder, you have to be unable to function normally in society. That's part of the diagnostic criteria, and someone who was otherwise a perfect model of the disorder, but had iron self control and functioned perfectly in society would by definition not have the disorder. So any cautionary tales about people with the disorder are not showing you the whole picture of people who might be described as sociopathic.I pulled a quote from the first article I came across regarding ASP:
"If you have a friend or family member who is a diagnosed sociopath, it means he suffers from antisocial personality disorder (ASP). It's important to understand the range and severity of symptoms that come with this diagnosis, including pathological lying, lack of remorse, aggressiveness, violent tendencies, inflated self-worth, manipulativeness, impulsivity and recklessness. While some of these symptoms may seem manageable, someone with sociopathic behavior is usually unable to conform to social norms and has no respect for the rights or personal space of others. Many ASP sufferers are arrested or incarcerated frequently due to an unexplainable gravitation toward criminal behavior. Unfortunately, ASP is one of the most difficult personality disorders to treat, so it's important to realize that many sociopaths can't be rehabilitated."
Thanks. That site must have been mixing the two concepts, because I found it searching for the term "sociopath" and it was referenced several time throughout the document. But you're saying it's not reasonable to have a race of people who are simply non-empathic? Who have their own satisfaction (gluttony, sadism/dominance, power, sexual satisfaction, avoidance of suffering) as their overriding and primary goal? In short, you're saying that what I'm trying to describe can't be the case?
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Thanks. That site must have been mixing the two concepts, because I found it searching for the term "sociopath" and it was referenced several time throughout the document.
Sociopath and Psychopath used to be accepted psychological terminology, but were (for various reasons) gotten rid of as official terminology in the last decade or so and replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder, a diagnosis not of a personality type, but (like most mental illness diagnoses) of a particular destructive pattern of behavior.
But you're saying it's not reasonable to have a race of people who are simply non-empathic? Who have their own satisfaction (gluttony, sadism/dominance, power, sexual satisfaction, avoidance of suffering) as their overriding and primary goal? In short, you're saying that what I'm trying to describe can't be the case?
Oh, it can. Absolutely. But given proper socialization in a more normal cultural paradigm they wouldn't necessarily be actively evil or inimical, or unable to function in society. They'd likely always be a bit...off, but not necessarily criminal, or even unpleasant. Some might even be truly heroic for purely intellectual or aesthetic reasons. And thus, killing babies of that race is morally repugnant.
In game terms, with proper rearing they might not be of an Evil Alignment (though Good Alignments would likely remain quite rare).
That's really all I'm saying. And the general tack (to varying degrees) that I take with the monstrous races, as an explanation to why they are as they are.
Thanks. That site must have been mixing the two concepts, because I found it searching for the term "sociopath" and it was referenced several time throughout the document.Sociopath and Psychopath used to be accepted psychological terminology, but were (for various reasons) gotten rid of as official terminology in the last decade or so and replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder, a diagnosis not of a personality type, but (like most mental illness diagnoses) of a particular destructive pattern of behavior.
How does this correlate with NPD (malignant narcissism)?
But you're saying it's not reasonable to have a race of people who are simply non-empathic? Who have their own satisfaction (gluttony, sadism/dominance, power, sexual satisfaction, avoidance of suffering) as their overriding and primary goal? In short, you're saying that what I'm trying to describe can't be the case?Oh, it can. Absolutely. But given proper socialization in a more normal cultural paradigm they wouldn't necessarily be actively evil or inimical, or unable to function in society. They'd likely always be a bit...off, but not necessarily criminal, or even unpleasant. Some might even be truly heroic for purely intellectual or aesthetic reasons. And thus, killing babies of that race is morally repugnant.
In game terms, with proper rearing they might not be of an Evil Alignment (though Good Alignments would likely remain quite rare).
That's really all I'm saying. And the general tack (to varying degrees) that I take with the monstrous races, as an explanation to why they are as they are.
You know, I have to tell you that I don't find this plausible. Firstly, it presumes a psychology and mind similar to that of a human's. Secondly, it assumes that the majority of such people could be rehabilitated into functioning members of society. I think our jails are replete with examples of failures of the psychiatric community to "fix" problem cases in humans, much less in an alien mind. Kind of like dogs that tend to be more aggressive or less mentally stable. They exist regardless of the canine lovers who wish to deny the truth of it. I can imagine such races that exist who are aggressive and vicious and sadistic, responding only to physical suffering/pain as discipline, that could never function in a rational society except, perhaps, in the rare 1 in 10,000 case (we don't even need to allow that if we don't want to).
I have no problem with a race of sociopaths -- a race who's people are born without empathy.Neither do I. I'm just not sure they should be allowed to be Paladins.
Oh. Did you mean the drow from that example? My bad.
ROFL - I see what you did there
silly deadmanwalking, putting real life social/psychological situations in a fantasy game...... you silly goose.
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How does this correlate with NPD (malignant narcissism)?
This isn't my area of specialty, as I'm going into therapy, not trend analysis or experimental psychology, so I'm afraid I don't really know. Sorry. :(
You know, I have to tell you that I don't find this plausible. Firstly, it presumes a psychology and mind similar to that of a human's.
True to some degree, but let's face it, Orcs, Drow, etc. are basically never portrayed as truly alien. They're 'rubber forehead aliens', basically particular human personality traits taken to extremes with existing human cultural baggage tacked on.
Show me something truly alien, and I have a lot less issues with the atatement "From a human perspective, these things are universally evil." Lovecraftian/Mythos-related stuff is a good example of this, IMO.
Secondly, it assumes that the majority of such people could be rehabilitated into functioning members of society. I think our jails are replete with examples of failures of the psychiatric community to "fix" problem cases in humans, much less in an alien mind.
Do you know that having been abused as children is a universal trait of serial killers? It is. People are mostly screwed up by their upbringing and culture, not their biology (though biology can certainly help). The psychiatric community, as you put it, really can't just fix people, that's not how it works. We have to work with the raw material (upbringing, culture, and all) that we are given. You'll note that I'm not arguing adult Drow should just be jailed or put in therapy...
I find it easy to imagine an Orc or a Drow being raised by the right people turning out all right. I mean, assuming they think like humans only with, say, more aggression and sadism, and less emotional investment in the lives of others. All that's easily controlled with the right kind of upbrining. I believe strongly in the ability of any sapient being to control its impulses and behave in a civilized and moral fashion if it puts in the effort...some just need to work harder than others.
Kind of like dogs that tend to be more aggressive or less mentally stable. They exist regardless of the canine lovers who wish to deny the truth of it.
They do indeed, and can still make good and loyal pets if trained properly (something sadly few people who want, say, a pit bull even think of). It's harder, but far from impossible.
I can imagine such races that exist who are aggressive and vicious and sadistic, responding only to physical suffering/pain as discipline, that could never function in a rational society except, perhaps, in the rare 1 in 10,000 case (we don't even need to allow that if we don't want to).
You can imagine such a thing, sure, but if they were that bad they wouldn't even have a society of their own. In fact, Bugbears based on Classic Monsters Revisited are exactly like this, as well as being completely solitary, which makes my point pretty well, I think.
If they can form functioning society on a tribal level, they can learn to blend in for survival in something more typical, and from there (under the right circumstances) learn to be functioning and useful members of society.
I also find it difficult to believe Orcs and Drow (who can both actually interbreed with humanity) would be so very mentally divergent.
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silly deadmanwalking, putting real life social/psychological situations in a fantasy game...... you silly goose.
Isn't that what we do whenever we have the PCs fight to save their homes? Or work to win the heart of a love interest? Or, indeed, try to become rich and powerful?
All those are real life social/psychological situations...and potentially make for wonderful stories and gaming experiences.
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Depends entirely upon the fullness of their connection with Lolth I suppose. I mean, its possible to defy a creator deity, just with rather pitiable consequences UNLESS you can secure the aid of another rival deity to save your soul, a la Drizzt and that weird nature goddess. But if Lolth owns them heat and soul, yup, they'd be irredeemably evil, because she fashioned them that way. If not, however, well, then there might be a player revolt...
For the race of sociopaths thing by the way, the only reason creatures are capable of forming cities and civilizations is due to empathic ties and the need for a community role. Other creatures, no matter how intelligent, if lacking that drive, generally only adopt warlike bands. The only way an "evil empire" can come into existence is if it was originally empathic, then descended into a cultural sociopathy (like most human dictatorships). Otherwise, being born evil and already having an advanced civilization does not compute in my brain...
as for the drow babies...yeah, give em claws and make them just as deadly. Drizzt could levitate by the age of like, 5, so make them scary levitators...that use potent magic items, if you truly want them to be irredeemably evil. Otherwise...er...
Female elf gives birth to a black baby. What do?
how is babby formed? how elf girl get pragnent?
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Kill the young! In a universe where there are absolute forces of good and evil, it is the duty of good-aligned races to kill evil creatures, lest they become a threat to the rest of the world.
To emphasize the evil nature of the drow, I like the idea that those not initially killed fall upon the wounded and eat them. You could also have some of the bigger drow offer the lives of the younger, weaker drow in exchange for the promise of safety. Make these little bastards a repugnant as possible.
Then, kill all the gnomes because they are barely a step above drow.
