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What I am asking is could a caster provoke once for the casting of the spell, and once again for the ranged attack portion.
Discuss.
PS:The point of this is to get this FAQ'd since no exact answer has yet to be given.
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FAQ'd.
But I stand by my "Same action, same opportunity" idea. In the case of a ranged touch spell, both casting and aiming are a part of the same standard action, so only one opportunity for AoO.
I would only allow 2 AoOs regardless of the number of rays since they are all fired at once like a multi shot arrow.
I would not rule two attacks of opportunity. It's one thing. I suppose you could parse the rule in a hyper-technical sense, but fundamentally it's one thing the character is doing, one action, ergo, one attack.
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This is the 'one for being tripped, one for going prone as a result of the trip' argument all over again :p
So, my standard response these days to these hypertechnical rules debates is:
"How is this ruled in PFS play?"
Surely it's come up there.
Except this one is for the express purpose of FAQ'n for clarification :P
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The question should be, why wouldn't it?
Action A does (normally) provoke. Action B does (always) provoke.
These are two different sources that do provoke, so (assuming there is a methode to take more than one AoO per round) yes, they both provoke together.
What's more, if it is a spell that allows multiple different ranged attacks (not at once) like say Scorching Ray, each ray will also Provoke. They area ll seperate sources.
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If each ray from scorching ray is "fired simultaneosly" how can they be reasonably considered provoking multiple attacks of opportunity?
Again, I think this is a hypertechnical reading of the rules that is in no way the intent of the developers.
Glad it's FAQ'd. Doesn't really matter though, I'll play ranged touch attacks the same way I always have because that's the way that makes sense to me.
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FAQ'd.
But I stand by my "Same action, same opportunity" idea. In the case of a ranged touch spell, both casting and aiming are a part of the same standard action, so only one opportunity for AoO.
No, that is different. The Same Action thing is like, if you and I are next to each other, and I take a Move Action to completely circle you (who is threatening and has Combat Reflexes and a super high Dex), you only get one AoO from my movement. Even though I would normally provoke for each step out of the squares you threatened, it is only one movement. Even if I "double move", that is still one action, and you would still only get one AoO.
Now, lets say I have some sort of curse affect that I take 5 damage every time I shoot an arrow. I full attack for 3 shots. I'm taking 15 damage for it, because they are all seperate. 3 attack/damage rolls, could be against three different targets, could require 3 different Miss Chance rolls, etc. . .
FAQ'd. I believe that it is actually TWO seperate actions, each of which provokes: casting the spell (non-defensively, of course) and then making a ranged (touch) attack. Even though it is, by RAW, a single action on the part of the caster, breaking it up helps me explain to my players.
I used this example on the prior thread, and am just going to repeat it here.
You are playing a 6th level Wizard. For some strange reason, you deliberately choose to cast scorching ray without making a Concentration check to cast defensively. Despite the fact that there is a Lizardman with two levels of Fighter armed with a single short-sword standing 5' away from you. The ground is rugged terrain, so you can't 5' step away, either.
Wiz begins to cast the spell. Lizzy the lizardman has the opportunity to make an Attack of Opportunity. If he misses with this attack, nothing happens, and the Wiz has successfully cast his spell. He rolls a 17 and he hits! Rolls a 3 and adds 2 (for his Strength ability mod), for 5 points of damage. Uh-oh.
At this point, Wiz has to make a Concentration check to avoid losing the spell. Wiz has to meet a DC of 17 by rolling a d20 and adding 6 (his caster level). He rolls a 12! Success!
Wiz doesn't target the feeble lizardman in his face; instead he concentrates on taking down the Ogre Barbarian 3 duking it out with the party fighter 25' away. He starts to make an ranged touch attack, but wait!
Lizzy gets another Attack of Opportunity! Unfortunately, he has already taken one AoO, but then he had foresight to choose Combat Reflexes as one of his fighter feats! He rolls to hit and gets a 16! Whooh! He hits again! This time, however, he can't disrupt the spell (it has already been cast). The only way he can stop Wiz from roasting the Ogre is to drop him.
He rolls damage, and comes up with a 1, for a total of 3 points. Wiz has taken 8 points of damage and is still up.
Wiz now rolls to hit, gets a natural 20! He confirms with a roll of 15 and inflicts 8d6 fire damage (rolled a 22) to the Ogre, who drops into the negatives.
Lizzy gulps, because now he is in trouble.
Master Arminas
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What's more, if it is a spell that allows multiple different ranged attacks (not at once) like say Scorching Ray, each ray will also Provoke. They area ll seperate sources.
I don't agree with that interpretation.
Does an archer firing 4 arrows in a full-attack action provoke 4 times?
Yes, obviously.
Lets say you are surrounded. You full attack with your only weapon (bow & arrow). We know we can take a 5ft step at any point inbetween, before or aftera full attack, right.
So you take your first attack, (which does provoke, right?), kill your target, and 5ft step into their square. You still have one more shot, and when you take it, that means 3 more targets now threaten you. Why would they not get an AoO?
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You are playing a 6th level Wizard. For some strange reason, you deliberately choose to cast scorching ray without making a Concentration check to cast defensively. Despite the fact that there is a Lizardman with two levels of Fighter armed with a single short-sword standing 5' away from you. The ground is rugged terrain, so you can't 5' step away, either.
I'm just curious why the Wiz didn't just take a move action instead? They can't 5ft step, ok. Moving is going to daw an AoO, but that will not interfere with the spellcasting and will not allow the Lizardman to threatedn for the ranged attack.
You are playing a 6th level Wizard. For some strange reason, you deliberately choose to cast scorching ray without making a Concentration check to cast defensively. Despite the fact that there is a Lizardman with two levels of Fighter armed with a single short-sword standing 5' away from you. The ground is rugged terrain, so you can't 5' step away, either.I'm just curious why the Wiz didn't just take a move action instead? They can't 5ft step, ok. Moving is going to daw an AoO, but that will not interfere with the spellcasting and will not allow the Lizardman to threatedn for the ranged attack.
Because Wiz is an idiot? It's his first time to play a spell-caster? His boots are stuck in the mud and he doesn't want to get his socks wet? I wanted an example; I know that there are other ways out.
Master Arminas
I dunno. it's not like you're actully taking 2 actions.
The ranged attack is part of the casting of the spell. It's not like he casts, then aims, then fires. It all happens as part of the casting.
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:) I was just curious. I was thinking this was an actual thing that happened.
What you wrote seems correct. I didn't fine-tooth comb it, but yes, they both provoke seperately, and the ranged attack does not disrupt the spell, or cause it to fail, unless the Wizard drops. AoO interupt that action that Provoked them, so it would come before it was actually fired and hit it's target. So, you are correct, if the Wizard had dropped, the spell would not fire off.
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Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity...
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
On a side note, do you see what I see?
Standard Action / Attack of Opportunity1
Attack (Ranged) / Yes
....
Full-Round Action / Attack of Opportunity1
Full attack / No
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Also, the Footnote for says this "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity".
On a side note, do you see what I see?
Standard Action / Attack of Opportunity1
Attack (Ranged) / Yes
....
Full-Round Action / Attack of Opportunity1
Full attack / No
Why would a Full (melee) Attack Provoke?
I would only allow 2 AoOs regardless of the number of rays since they are all fired at once like a multi shot arrow.
This is what I would do also.
This is the 'one for being tripped, one for going prone as a result of the trip' argument all over again :p
Not at all. Being tripped is still one thing. This is a case of one action have two acts.
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What's more, if it is a spell that allows multiple different ranged attacks (not at once) like say Scorching Ray, each ray will also Provoke. They area ll seperate sources.
I don't agree with that interpretation.
Does an archer firing 4 arrows in a full-attack action provoke 4 times?
This is a good question. I think that whatever the answer is to this thread should apply to ranged full attack actions.
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I believe an Archer (w/o Rapid Shot) that has a BAB of +16 or higher can make four attacks with a single full-attack action. Each of those attacks generates its own Attack of Opportunity (if there is someone to threaten, and IF that individual has Combat Reflexes and a high enough Dexterity ability score to get 4 AoO per round).
Now, if that same Archer has Manyshot (yes, yes, yes; I am aware Rapid Shot is a prerequisite! Sheesh!) and takes four shots, his first shot actually fires two arrows. But it is one attack. He still only provokes four Attacks of Opportunity.
That is just my reading of the rules.
Master Arminas
Yar.
This is a good question. I think that whatever the answer is to this thread should apply to ranged full attack actions.
What's more, if it is a spell that allows multiple different ranged attacks (not at once) like say Scorching Ray, each ray will also Provoke. They area ll seperate sources.
I don't agree with that interpretation.
Does an archer firing 4 arrows in a full-attack action provoke 4 times?
For this, I'd lean towards yes. Why?
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Each attack in a full-round archer attack is a separate attack, and a separate opportunity. Moving through multiple threatened squares of the same opponent does not count as separate opportunities because the movement is still one single act.
IF during the move, the AoO had an effect that stopped the movement, and the formerly moving person decided to start moving again (though threatened squares), then I'd say in that case yes, that provokes a second AoO for the second instance of moving... but ONLY if the first move that provoked caused the person to actually stop moving while in threatened squares.
~P
Ok, I don't mean to muddy the waters here or add more complexity than is necessary but I'd like to give an example.
Say there is a baddy standing nearby that has access to dimension door and the dimensional dervish line of feats. Lets call him Jeb. Say Jeb is sitting by patiently as he watches the heroes fight in a battle. Jeb has his eye on the party wizard and is waiting for him to make a mistake. Jeb decides to ready an action to pop in and attack after the wizard completes casting his spell. He wants to do it this way because if he kills the wizard before the spell goes off he gets the prestige for saving his ally. However, if the spell does go off and kill one of his allies, he is ok with that too. He gets a bigger cut of the profits that way. He doesn't want to interupt the spell being cast though unless it is with the death of the wizard.
One of Jeb's allies (lets call him Hermes) is standing right next to this wizard and has him cornered; he has nowhere to move. The wizard, not wanting to risk his spell not going off decides to cast his scorching ray without casting defensively. He begins casting the spell and Hermes takes advantage of the situation by making an AoO that the wizard provoked by not casting defensively. He makes the attack, but misses because Hermes sucks... seriously, the dude couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, much less a wizard waving his hands around wildly in front of him.
But, to continue, Jeb saw all this go down and he hates Hermes for being such a jerk and isn't doing this to save his hide at all. Jeb's readied action goes off "after the spell is cast" but before the wizard has made his ranged touch attack. Jeb pops in and gets his attacks. Jeb hits with all of his attacks but doesn't manage to bring the wizard down. Nonetheless, he is still standing next to the wizard when he makes his ranged touch attack with his spell.
The wizard is messed up pretty bad. Another attack that hits would likely take him down. Does he have the opportunity to stop after casting the spell and not make his ranged touch attack which would provoke another AoO? If he does make his ranged touch attack is there any reason why it would not provoke an AoO? What if Hermes has has Combat Reflexes? Does he get another AoO?
Personally, I fall in to the 2 AoO camp. Hopefully my example shows another reason why I believe this and doesn't serve to further muddy the waters. Either way Jeb is going to kill Hermes after they kill this wizard... he just cant stand his incompetance anymore.
For a readied action like that I would have it be worded very specifically. With that aside...
I would say that if a wizard can choose to not make a touch attack then he can choose to not make a ranged touch attack, but there is no rules support for that.
If Hermes has combat reflexes I think he should get a second AoO because I think the intent was for casting and the firing to provoke for each act.
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No, you only get one Attack of Opportunity, but, you always get an attack of opportunity, even if the spell was cast defensively.
I'm on my IPhone right now and am unable to copy/paste from the PRD. It's in the section under casting spells as part of a standard action: the ranged touch attack is made as part of the spell, not a separate action. Because it is part of the spell, you only provoke an AoO for casting the spell. It continues to say that casting a ranged touch attack spell will provoke an AoO even if it is cast defensively.
So, you guys are partially wrong, but partially right. Hooray for being in the middle!
We saw that part, but we disagree on what it means due to a dev saying it was part of a rules change. The problem is that due to way the thread was going it was hard to tell which way the change went.
@ Lune
Before your post, I was in the 2 aoo for ranged touch spell camp. Your post convinced me otherwise - I know your intention was the opposite. Since the caster has no choice to not make the ranged touch attack after casting the spell, it must then be one action, but as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, one action which fulfils the conditions for aoo twice. The two conditions which provoke are part of the same action, and the person taking the action has no choice do exclude one of the conditions if the first has caused him to provoke and be hit. Thus, single action fulfilling two conditions means single aoo.
On an unrelated note, I think you meant that Jeb delayed until after the wizard cast, because feats or no, a readied action is a single action, not a full round of actions. Using abundant step is his readied action, ending his turn (this has nothing to do with teleport restrictions, because he has dimensional agility, it is simply that a readied action is a move action OR a standard action, not both). And certainly, Dimensional Agility does not allow him to make a move action (abundant step) and a full round action (full attack)
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Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: . . .
I quoted the exact same thing (and bolded too, ha ha) above, but also added another line from a little further down that pretty much reconfirms this point.
The Footnote for 1 under the What provokes quickchart says "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity".
I would usually say "No, just 1" but you guys made some compelling arguments for 2 AoOs, so now I'm not 100% sure anymore.
I still think it's one action, the ranged touch attack being part of the casting. You point you finger while you speak the magical mumbo-jumbo and then it's all done. You don't cast and then point.
Archers provoke for each attack, but that's a different thing. If you'd cast a spell that allows you to make ranged touch attacks against more than one enemy, then I'd say each of them provokes but I'm not sure there's one like that.
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We saw that part, but we disagree on what it means due to a dev saying it was part of a rules change. The problem is that due to way the thread was going it was hard to tell which way the change went.
Are you responding to my post? If so you should have mentioned that in your initial post, because as it stands right now, the printed rule in the book needs no clarification as it it pretty clearly written. If there has been a rules change somewhere that states that a ranged touch attack is now considered as a separate action from casting the spell, that would be different, and I would like to know where this was mentioned to I can be better informed.
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No, you only get one Attack of Opportunity, but, you always get an attack of opportunity, even if the spell was cast defensively.
I think you missed the important part. No one is saying an AoO for casting and then a 2nd AoO for that same casting's touch like you are implying. It is because the Ranged Touch attack is a Ranged Attack while being threatened. It would be no different than casting a spell and then shooting your bow. Shooting the bow still provokes, because shooting while threatened provokes. Note that it does say the same action can't reprovoke, but that they must be different causes for provoking, which is different.
What you are suggesting is that someone Charges, and would normally provoke for both the movement and because they are attacking unarmed while not porficient. A Charge is one action, so what your saying is that if they charge and provoke for the movement, no one can take an AoO for their narmed strike. This becomes even worse if it is a Combat Manuver at the end of the Charge, as Combat Manuver that take damage as part of the AoO take that as a penulty on the CMB check, and your negating that completely.
We saw that part, but we disagree on what it means due to a dev saying it was part of a rules change. The problem is that due to way the thread was going it was hard to tell which way the change went.Are you responding to my post? If so you should have mentioned that in your initial post, because as it stands right now, the printed rule in the book needs no clarification as it it pretty clearly written. If there has been a rules change somewhere that states that a ranged touch attack is now considered as a separate action from casting the spell, that would be different, and I would like to know where this was mentioned to I can be better informed.
I made that argument in another thread. I will link you to where I first began to discuss it. Others ran the wording as different so I eventually create this thread.
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Does he have the opportunity to stop after casting the spell and not make his ranged touch attack which would provoke another AoO?
I would say yes. I would rule similar to a touch attack holding the chare, they could just let it disopate, but the spell would be wasted. I'm basing that off the fact that it does say you can not hod a charge with range touches like you can with some touch spells, but it doesn't say you must fire them, just you can't hold. That is just a house rule type assumption though. There shouldn't be a rule either way on that one. Also, secific spells like fireball (creates an explosive bead) are exceptions.
If he does make his ranged touch attack is there any reason why it would not provoke an AoO?
No, it is a ranged attack while threatened, so it does.
What if Hermes has has Combat Reflexes? Does he get another AoO?
Yes, why wouldn't he, (assuming dex to afford it)?
If you'd cast a spell that allows you to make ranged touch attacks against more than one enemy, then I'd say each of them provokes but I'm not sure there's one like that.
Schorching Ray at higher levels. That's why it keeps getting mentioned :) Produce Flame might be another. If you say no, it's all just one casting and can only provoke once, that means that Produce Flame after the first attack, can never provoke again, even though it lasts a lot of rounds. So I can go gt a minion to AoO me before I tackle the BBEG that can't even attempt it while I ranged Attack from the next square over?
Schorching Ray at higher levels. That's why it keeps getting mentioned :) Produce Flame might be another. If you say no, it's all just one casting and can only provoke once, that means that Produce Flame after the first attack, can never provoke again, even though it lasts a lot of rounds. So I can go gt a minion to AoO me before I tackle the BBEG that can't even attempt it while I ranged Attack from the next square over?
Scorching Ray: It states all rays fire simultaniously, so if I fire 1 ray or 25 (yes I know three is the max) doesn't matter, its all the same distraction that allows the enemy to exploit a hole in my defense.
Because that is what provoking an AoO is, you let your guard down and an enemy seizes that opportunity to strike you.For Produce Flame, you can hurl them as a thrown weapon. Thrown weapons provoke for each throw, because each one is a seperate action where you let your guard down. Especially when it's done over multiple rounds. You don't throw those "flameballs" simultaniously but in succession.
So the question is: Is casting and aiming once all part of the same action or is it actually two, completely seperate actions that would provide two openings that people can exploit? I'd still say it's just one. However as others have pointed out, Casting Defensively does not help.
However that little part would actually indicate it's two seperate actions.
If you provoke an AoO during your casting, then you are forced to make a concentration check vs the damage dealt or lose the spell, not able to finish it. You can avoid this by casting defensively.
However the Ranged attack part still provokes, but this time the damage dealt acts as a penalty on your ranged touch attack roll.
So this would actually indicated that you cast first, and then aim.
But again you can argue, that as long as you leave yourself open to both, it's all more or less one fluid motion and only provokes once.
However the Ranged attack part still provokes, but this time the damage dealt acts as a penalty on your ranged touch attack roll.
Where does this come from I have never seen it and would like to know.
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Core rulebook, page 186:
"Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively."
"an" attack of opportunity. One. Uno. Singular.
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What I am asking is could a caster provoke once for the casting of the spell, and once again for the ranged attack portion.
Discuss.
PS:The point of this is to get this FAQ'd since no exact answer has yet to be given.
Not to nitpick, but I don't think this is the question you meant to ask. Of course they provoke twice, the rules are pretty clear on that.
The question is, are they separate opportunities, thereby allowing two attacks?
For example, the rules are quite clear that moving through threaten squares is only one opportunity. Each time an opponent moves out of one of your threatened squares they provoke, but since movement is a single opportunity, you're only allowed a single attacks. The attacks are limited, the provocations are not.
The ramifications of this are that if an opponent moves out of a threatened square, you can elect not to take the AoO. If that same opponent, during that same move, leaves a second (or third, or fourth, etc.) square, you can choose to take the AoO at that later point.
Anyway, given the discussions that preceded this one, I think the intent of your query was clear and I have clicked the FAQ button.
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Core rulebook, page 186:
"Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively."
"an" attack of opportunity. One. Uno. Singular.
No one is suggesting that a single ranged touch attack would provoke more than one AoO, but this does confirm that the casting and the ranged attack would in fact draw seperte AoO's, though.