Inquisitors of Irori

[Mike Lindner]

The thing is that the responses here make it seem more ambiguous than I believe it really is. Many people are responding with "it should be this" as opposed to what the rules actually allow.

[Jiggy]

Mike Lindner wrote:

Many people are responding with "it should be this" as opposed to what the rules actually allow.

To some people, those are the same thing. (And if I'm not mistaken, that was the established norm back in The Beginning, yes?)

[CWheezy]

I have actually told people they do because it says it under the inquisitor rules. I say Yes

[Seraphimpunk]

well.
there's no actual rule in the core book that clerics of Irorri get improved unarmed strike.
right?

so there's even less basis that if you get a Deity who's favored weapon is Unarmed Strike in general, that you should get Improved Unarmed Strike. Its just been in the PFS Guide for so long that Clerics of Irori get it.

you should show true devotion and take a dip into Monk ;)

[Nefreet]

Jiggy wrote:

Mike Lindner wrote:

Many people are responding with "it should be this" as opposed to what the rules actually allow.

To some people, those are the same thing. (And if I'm not mistaken, that was the established norm back in The Beginning, yes?)

"There are never RAW, only RAI", I believe is the logic.

[Jiggy]

Nefreet wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Mike Lindner wrote:

Many people are responding with "it should be this" as opposed to what the rules actually allow.

To some people, those are the same thing. (And if I'm not mistaken, that was the established norm back in The Beginning, yes?)

"There are never RAW, only RAI", I believe is the logic.

I believe that's actually a different mindset than I'm meaning, though with a large overlap between the populations who use them.

[Nefreet]

And for those of you just joining us, the count so far is: Yes - 11, No - 8.

As a reminder, here is the question we're hoping to FAQ!

[Zahmahkibo]

Nefreet wrote:

Except, oftentimes the RAW (or RAI) aren't clear. This thread alone should prove that. I posted a link above to a thread I started about the matter. I believe there are better responses than "No reply required".

But, getting back on topic...

Yes: 9
No: 8

The FAQ is for clarifications when the RAW is fuzzy, not for issuing errata when it doesn't seem to match the RAI. It's descriptive, not prescriptive.

In fact, by RAW, non-PFS Clerics don't get IUS either--but between the PFS Guide and SKR's endorsement, even conservative DMs should feel comfortable house ruling it in private games.

If you're taking an Inquisitor of Irori into PFS, meanwhile, you don't get IUS. I'd be surprised if this wasn't considered an oversight, and if it weren't changed some time in the future, but for now, there's no ambiguity.

Should Inquisitors (and non-PFS Clerics) of Irori get IUS, according to intuition, balance, and basic design principles? Yes.
Does the current RAW grant them said feat? No.

Both of these answers are obvious, but I feel like the Yes camp is responding to the first question, while the No is responding to the second.

[Mergy]

Some of us have responded to both questions, and are at the same time requesting a change. :)

[Nefreet]

Wow, 53 FAQ requests so far! You guys are amazing.

Any more votes out there that I can add to the tally?

[Akerlof]

Nefreet wrote:

Wow, 53 FAQ requests so far! You guys are amazing.

Any more votes out there that I can add to the tally?

Let me add a "yes." My reasoning is that clerics who gain proficiency with their deity's favored weapon effectively get the simple/martial/exotic weapon proficiency to use it. In the case of the bastard sword, where there are two options, per this FAQ they explicitly get the exotic weapon feat so they can use it fully.

I don't see any reason to treat unarmed strike (anyone can use it, but it deals nonlethal and provokes an AoO unless you have a feat) differently than you would treat a bastard sword or katana (anyone with proficiency in martial weapons can use them two handed, but you need a feat to use them one handed.) In the latter case, the class gets the feat to use the weapon fully, so I think they should get it in the former as well.

FAQ wrote:

Cleric: Does a cleric, whose deity's favored weapon is the bastard sword, receive free martial or exotic weapon proficiency with the sword?
Since the bastard sword is listed as an exotic weapon, he receives the Exotic Weapon proficiency with the weapon, allowing him to use it one-handed.

—Jason Bulmahn, 07/08/11
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This might not be the strongest possible case for allowing it: It's arguing from analogy. But I think it's good enough to justify not taking away players' toys.

[Nefreet]

Nice. I like it. New approaches to a discussion are always appreciated.

That brings our "Yes" count to 12, the "No" count to 8, and the FAQ count to 57!!

I wonder how close to the top of the FAQ queue this is getting?

[Zahmahkibo]

I don't see how the Bastard Sword example is relevant. Unarmed strikes are simple weapons, with which Clerics and Inquisitors of Irori (and all other characters) are indeed proficient. Yes, their extra proficiency is wasted, but that's hardly unprecedented, as any follower of Abadar, Asmodeus, Erastil, or Pharasma could tell you.

Of course it's silly that Inquisitors of Irori can't make suitable use of their god's favored weapon, and if this question ever makes it to the FAQ I fully expect that to change. Nothing's been taken away, though, because there's never been a rule on the books that gave them IUS in the first place.

While we're at it, however, we may as well note that Korada, an Empyreal Lord, favors unarmed strikes and is apparently a legal deity per the allowed pages of the ISWG. There's no mention of him in the Player's Guide, so even his Clerics get nothing at the moment. Both his alignment and domain package (NG, Good/Healing/Magic/Protection) are different from Irori's, so both classes have non-fluff reasons to care. If the IUS issue ever does get errata'd, hopefully it'll be under a blanket proclamation for all unarmed strike-favoring gods.

[John Compton]

Good afternoon,

After batting around this question in the office, we have made a decision. James Jacobs has posted a Golarion FAQ point about this, expanding the PFS special rule that clerics of Irori gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. Now any character whose class ability or proficiency list states that he gains proficiency with his deity's favored weapon (and that favored weapon is an unarmed strike) receives Improved Unarmed Strike for free.

This is a clarification that we are using for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. We plan on updating this in future versions of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.

FAQ Post

[Jiggy]

Thanks John! (And James!)

[Finlanderboy]

Yay I wonnered.

[Arassuil]

Thanks for the update John and James. Much appreciated.

FYI: If it hasn't been reviewed already, please look at Inquisitors with the Nobility domain in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Because the way it is currently written, they will gain Leadership as a bonus feat at 8th level. The logical thing to do there as well will be to have them gain Persuasive as a bonus feat, just like Clerics and Druids.

[Michael Brock]

Entilzha wrote:

Thanks for the update John and James. Much appreciated.

FYI: If it hasn't been reviewed already, please look at Inquisitors with the Nobility domain in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Because the way it is currently written, they will gain Leadership as a bonus feat at 8th level. The logical thing to do there as well will be to have them gain Persuasive as a bonus feat, just like Clerics and Druids.

No, they won't gain Leadership at 8th level. Leadership is banned across the board in PFS. Currently when they gain 8th level, they don't receive that as an option for a bonus feat.

[John Compton]

Michael Brock wrote:

Entilzha wrote:

Thanks for the update John and James. Much appreciated.

FYI: If it hasn't been reviewed already, please look at Inquisitors with the Nobility domain in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Because the way it is currently written, they will gain Leadership as a bonus feat at 8th level. The logical thing to do there as well will be to have them gain Persuasive as a bonus feat, just like Clerics and Druids.

No, they won't gain Leadership at 8th level. Leadership is banned across the board in PFS. Currently when they gain 8th level, they don't receive that as an option for a bonus feat.

Which is to say treat them like a cleric who would gain that domain; they instead gain Persuasive.

[Arassuil]

John Compton wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

No, they won't gain Leadership at 8th level. Leadership is banned across the board in PFS. Currently when they gain 8th level, they don't receive that as an option for a bonus feat.

Which is to say treat them like a cleric who would gain that domain; they instead gain Persuasive.

Guess I didn't word my thoughts as accurately as I wanted, but got the result I was hoping for, so it all worked out. Thanks again to both Mike and John!

[Nefreet]

W00t!

[Zahmahkibo]

Excellent. Thanks for the update, John and Mike, and good on Nefreet for leading the charge to get it noticed.

[zefig]

Awesome, thanks for the update!

[Seraphimpunk]

nicely done

[Titania, the Summer Queen]

:)